Pale Moon (28.5.0, 32-bit, Windows 7) hanging/crashing after a few hours. Has been doing this for a few versions.

Tharthan · Post by **Tharthan** » 2019-05-20, 20:43

Hello.

For quite some time (may have been a year or more by now) Pale Moon (Version 28.5.0, 32-bit, Windows 7) has been hanging (and then sometimes crashing) after having been open for a somewhat long period of time (several hours or more, although sometimes it doesn't take that long. Nevertheless, it usually does).

I have noticed that when it begins to really slow down before it finally ends up hanging, Windows Task Manager indicates that Pale Moon (palemoon.exe) has a very high number under Memory (Private Working Set) in the Processes tab. I've seen it go quite a bit beyond 1,000,000 K when it gets really bad, even if it is merely running slowly (no other program goes anywhere near that. I haven't really seen much else go beyond the tens of thousands at most). I don't know what the ideal number that it ought to have under that is, but (for reference) right now it is at 619,408 K under Memory (Private Working Set), and it is running smoothly.

This has been going on for perhaps a year or more now (or, if not, close to a year at least. I can't recall precisely). I was hoping that maybe a version update might fix the problem, but so far that has not been the case. I'm not sure what is causing the problem.

I must indicate that I have used Pale Moon since about 2016 (maybe late 2015? I can't recall if it was late 2015 or early-mid 2016) or so (switching over from Firefox after I found out about Pale Moon), and it never used to do this. I love Pale Moon (it is the best browser that I have ever used), and I use it daily, so I would like to see if there may be a solution to this problem.

EDIT: Realised that I used incorrect wording. I said "crash" instead of "hang".
EDIT2: Nope. I actually ought to have said both.

Nigaikaze · Post by **Nigaikaze** » 2019-05-20, 23:31

Tharthan wrote: ↑
2019-05-20, 20:43
I'm not sure what is causing the problem.

Please post your information from Help -> Troubleshooting information as described here ...

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49

... along with details from AppCrashView (info about that is on that same link).

Tharthan · Post by **Tharthan** » 2019-05-21, 02:52

Nigaikaze wrote: ↑
2019-05-20, 23:31
Please post your information from Help -> Troubleshooting information

Here you go:

Nigaikaze wrote: ↑
2019-05-20, 23:31
details from AppCrashView

I just realised that I may have been somewhat imprecise. As such, I have slightly modified the name of the thread, and also the original post.

But here are the details from AppCrashView:

New Tobin Paradigm · Post by **New Tobin Paradigm** » 2019-05-21, 09:58

Manual breakpoint.

You say this happens after long sessions? And it is Win32? Could be an out of memory condition by some leaky script running on some website.

If that is the case I dunno what we can do about it.

You can try to get us a minidimp to confirm and maybe switch to a Win64 version and or "download some more ram" if that is what it is.

therube · Post by **therube** » 2019-05-22, 01:44

How much physical RAM do you have?

600 KB or memory usage, or even 1 GB is not really all that much, IMO.
I regularly use that (with SeaMonkey) on XP & I only have 2 GB physical RAM.
(Granted I typically don't do "videos" or even too much "demanding" on that system, but memory used is memory used.)

On Windows x86, you can theoretically use up to ~4 GB of RAM.
More then likely though you'd run into OOM issues well before that, even around ~2 GB of usage, or outright crash (with plenty of parameters playing into what might or might not happen).

Post by **satrow** » 2019-05-22, 06:03

I suspect it might be the Windows Live .dll that's loading with Pale Moon (and probably every other program): LoadedModule[79]=C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Microsoft Shared\Windows Live\WLIDNSP.DLL

PalleP · Post by **PalleP** » 2019-05-22, 17:41

Do you use Gmail?

Gmail will cause this, even in the new PM v.28.5

Europa · Post by **Europa** » 2019-05-23, 13:21

PalleP wrote: ↑
2019-05-22, 17:41
Do you use Gmail?

Gmail will cause this, even in the new PM v.28.5

It never did this for me, however I cannot type in Reply mode when using Standard view. Strange.

Tharthan · Post by **Tharthan** » 2019-05-23, 17:15

therube wrote: ↑
2019-05-22, 01:44
How much physical RAM do you have?

4.00 GB (3.75 usable)

satrow wrote: ↑
2019-05-22, 06:03
I suspect it might be the Windows Live .dll that's loading with Pale Moon (and probably every other program): LoadedModule[79]=C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Microsoft Shared\Windows Live\WLIDNSP.DLL

You think so? If it's a Windows Live DLL, wouldn't it be likely that it has probably been there since the beginning? Like I said, Pale Moon didn't originally have this problem on my computer. It has only been perhaps for the past year (perhaps slightly longer, perhaps slightly less time) or so that this has been occurring.

In any case, what would be the best way for me to determine if that is what is causing it? Disabling it (if I can)? Deleting it? I don't want to remove something entirely that might be useful if I don't have to, though.

PalleP wrote: ↑
2019-05-22, 17:41
Do you use Gmail?

Nope, never have, even back when I used Google as a search engine. I'm utterly anti-Google these days (although I did have a Google Account from 2006 or 2007 till 2015 or so, and had a YouTube account from early 2007 till 2014).

Post by **satrow** » 2019-05-23, 17:24

Tharthan wrote: ↑
2019-05-23, 17:15
You think so? If it's a Windows Live DLL, wouldn't it be likely that it has probably been there since the beginning? Like I said, Pale Moon didn't originally have this problem on my computer. It has only been perhaps for the past year (perhaps slightly longer, perhaps slightly less time) or so that this has been occurring.

In any case, what would be the best way for me to determine if that is what is causing it? Disabling it (if I can)? Deleting it? I don't want to remove something entirely that might be useful if I don't have to, though.

Might be useful?

1. Do you use any Windows Live programs?

2. What use does Pale Moon have for a foreign .dll?

New Tobin Paradigm · Post by **New Tobin Paradigm** » 2019-05-23, 19:09

DLL injection into any process is a thing.

Tharthan · Post by **Tharthan** » 2019-05-24, 00:35

satrow wrote: ↑
2019-05-23, 17:24
Might be useful?

1. Do you use any Windows Live programs?

Not that I know of. The only one that I can think of that I really ever did use was Windows Live Movie Maker, but I installed the old Windows Movie Maker 2.6 and Vista's Windows Movie Maker 6.0 on my computer many years ago (although both of them no longer export properly if the project is of any meaningful length. It'll export the video properly for for the first few minutes of the video [and I think that it will correctly keep the audio in the exported file, although I may be wrong about that], but after a while the video would stop [although, again, the audio may still continue] and remain on just a still image. I'll have to get around to fixing that at some point, or reinstalling them [although I don't know if that would fix the problem]) for video editing. I don't do major stuff, so good old Windows Movie Maker works well enough for my needs.

And in case you were going to ask, my usage of those old programs on my Windows 7 computer long predated the first time that this happened. Furthermore, the problems that have developed in both Windows Movie Maker 2.6 & Windows Movie Maker 6.0 predated by several months to perhaps a year the hanging/crashing problem that I now have with Pale Moon. If they are connected somehow (and I don't know how they could be, honestly), it sure took a very long time (multiple years) before there was any impact.

satrow wrote: ↑
2019-05-23, 17:24
2. What use does Pale Moon have for a foreign .dll?

Right, but my point was that it may have some usage elsewhere. It recently came to my attention that MIcrosoft discontinued their Windows Live stuff seven years ago. I didn't know this because I never adopted Windows 8 or 10 (and never will, so long as 10 is the way that it is).

If the DLL is really of no use to me, and there really wouldn't be any repercussions if I deleted it (keep in mind that I may still want to use Windows Live Movie Maker at some point in the future), then I would be fine with deleting it. If it is the cause of my Pale Moon woes, then I will remove it. Something just came to mind, though, that could potentially be a larger contributing factor, although I am not certain.

Post by **satrow** » 2019-05-24, 00:54

Tharthan wrote: ↑
2019-05-24, 00:35
Something just came to mind, though, that could potentially be a larger contributing factor, although I am not certain.

Withholding *something's* name and reasons for suspicion? Why not run it past us?

Tharthan · Post by **Tharthan** » 2019-05-24, 01:58

satrow wrote: ↑
2019-05-24, 00:54

Tharthan wrote: ↑
2019-05-24, 00:35
Something just came to mind, though, that could potentially be a larger contributing factor, although I am not certain.
Withholding *something's* name and reasons for suspicion? Why not run it past us?

Alright.

I'm actually somewhat embarrassed that I didn't consider this possibility earlier.

Give or take a year before this problem first occurred, something annoying happened.

You see, beginning around 2015 or early 2016 (if I recall correctly. This was after I had already made Pale Moon my standard default browser, mind you), I began to dual boot with Lubuntu. I did this because of the whole stunt Microsoft pulled regarding the whole Windows 10 thing. I had made the registry change to block any potential immediate nonsense, but I was growing weary of checking update after update to see if they were sneaking in some telemetry or "'Upgrade' to Windows 10" hogwash.

Now I had never used GNU/Linux before (the only other non-Windows computer operating system that I have ever used to this day is Mac OSX Leopard, because a family member purchased a computer with it on it, and I was curious to see what it was like), and I am by no means a programmer, so it took some getting used to. It ended up running fairly smoothly for a good number of months (several), I came to use Lubuntu more or less exclusively, and I had it pretty individually customised to fit my liking, but eventually it all fell apart. Y'see, my fatal error was that I didn't allocate enough space into the directory that installed applications and system files (or maybe just one of those two. I can't remember which. I stopped using Lubuntu years ago now, so I don't remember too well the directory structure. I think that it was "root" that was running out of space).

NOW here's that could potentially have something to do with this: some time (a few days to a week, probably) prior to the day that I let the Lubuntu update install that led to my Lubuntu OS falling apart (I spent quite some time trying to fix it over the course of at least two days [not all in one sitting, of course], but my efforts were in vain), I used an application that looked like it might help (the Lubuntu side) of my computer, but I didn't realise that it wasn't meant for the kind of setup that I had. It ended up making some (still to this day) unknown changes to the Windows side of my hard drive. The only things that were noticeable afterwards were:

A. The boot screen listed Windows 7 twice. I have found no difference between those two entries.

B. The "System Reserved Drive" (D:), which from what I understand is used for repairing my OS if it ever really got messed up, was visible. I had never seen that before (I had first found out about its existence, actually, when I was using/setting up Lubuntu), and I admit that it initially concerned me, although it stopped bothering me when nothing bad happened.

It has been about three years since then (if my time estimations don't fit quite perfectly, understand that--as I have been saying--I am just giving a rough estimation. I don't recall precisely the time lengths that elapsed or that were in between this "event" and that "event"). And I am much more careful now computer-wise than I was then. I back up a lot more stuff than I did then, and I am continually moving in the direction of taking more precautions.

Now I didn't consider this as a factor initially I think for two reasons:

First of all, although the dual boot still exists, the Lubuntu end is corrupted, so to speak. I still see the GRUB screen when I boot up my computer (and it still defaults to selecting Lubuntu if I don't key down to Windows 7), but the dual boot thing has become a thing of the past for me. Frankly, if I could figure out a way to remove Lubuntu, and (if possible) safely reallocate the partitioned space back to Windows, I would readily go and do just that. I don't even think about Lubuntu anymore, and the only time that I would even see it now is on the GRUB boot screen, and since it is essentially muscle memory now (in a manner of speaking) for me to key down to Windows 7 without even really looking at the boot screen, it wasn't on my mind.

Secondly, the problems with Pale Moon started happening a year (or close to a year) later. I didn't really think that my Lubuntu fiasco had anything to do with it.

Post by **Moonchild** » 2019-05-24, 08:57

You could use a partitioning program to fix your drive (and probably restore a proper master boot record for Windows).
Since the boot code on your drive is the first thing executed before the O.S. loads, it can influence everything you do on your PC especially if it changes things in the way hardware talks to each other (which can include setting up the memory controller a certain way). Now this goes pretty deep into the systems architecture of PCs and I won't bother you with the details, but suffice it to say that having the proper boot code for Windows on a Windows-only machine is always greatly preferred.

The "system reserved" partition should, at the very least, normally never be visible, so it indicates something isn't exactly right. I've never seen that behavior so I'm not sure what the recommended action for it is, but you should be able to get rid of the broken Linux partition and reclaim the space with e.g. EaseUS Partition Master (free edition).

Tharthan · Post by **Tharthan** » 2019-05-24, 10:38

Moonchild wrote: ↑
2019-05-24, 08:57
You could use a partitioning program to fix your drive (and probably restore a proper master boot record for Windows).

I would be perfectly willing to do that. The reason why I haven't tried to mess with that partition thus far is because, from what I understand, "GRUB" sort of attaches the normal Windows 7 boot-up process to itself in an artificial manner. What I mean is, I have been under the impression from what I read when I set up the dual boot, that when I select Windows 7 on the GRUB boot screen, the normal Windows 7 loader is "taped" in a manner of speaking to "GRUB".

So my concern is, if I wipe the Lubuntu partition clean, what will happen? Will it stall or something after my computer's manufacturer's logo and the basic things that I can do that are somewhat subtly (in my opinion) indicated under the manufacturer's logo finishes displaying?

I don't own another computer, and I don't really have the funds at the moment to buy a new one right now, so I have to be very careful not to make my computer unusable.

But, again, I'm not trained or educated in that particular area, so if my concerns are unwarranted or if there is a very low likelihood that anything bad will happen from wiping the Lubuntu partition, I will do it.

Moonchild wrote: ↑
2019-05-24, 08:57
Since the boot code on your drive is the first thing executed before the O.S. loads, it can influence everything you do on your PC especially if it changes things in the way hardware talks to each other

I had no idea that using the bootloader that came with Lubuntu could impact the way that the computer operates after Windows 7 boots up. That's very good to know.

Do you think that, despite the time in between that whole thing and when my problems with Pale Moon first occurred, that it could be having some influence even if it isn't the direct cause?

Moonchild wrote: ↑
2019-05-24, 08:57
but you should be able to get rid of the broken Linux partition and reclaim the space with e.g. EaseUS Partition Master (free edition).

Thanks. I'll download that. I will wait to run it until I figure out what the situation is with the connection between "GRUB" and the natural Windows 7 method of booting.

Cassette · Post by **Cassette** » 2019-05-24, 10:45

I've seen hidden system partitions appear before. One way it can happen is if you clone your install to another drive. Windows assigned a letter to it so you just have to remove the letter. Open a command prompt with administrative privileges. Then type

Code: Select all

diskpart
list vol

It will present a list of partitions. Find the volume number associated with the D drive then type

Code: Select all

select vol %number%

where "%number%" is the volume number for the D drive. Finally type

Code: Select all

remove letter=D

This will remove the letter, but leave any data on the partition intact.

It's also possible to change boot option entries with the command prompt, but I'm less practiced with that.

Tharthan · Post by **Tharthan** » 2019-05-24, 10:59

Cassette wrote: ↑
2019-05-24, 10:45
I've seen hidden system partitions appear before. One way it can happen is if you clone your install to another drive. Windows assigned a letter to it so you just have to remove the letter. Open a command prompt with administrative privileges. Then type
Code: Select all
diskpart
list vol
It will present a list of partitions. Find the volume number associated with the D drive then type
Code: Select all
select vol %number%
where "%number%" is the volume number for the D drive. Finally type
Code: Select all
remove letter=D
This will remove the letter, but leave any data on the partition intact.

It worked like a charm. Thanks!

Nigaikaze · Post by **Nigaikaze** » 2019-05-24, 13:51

From my own experience dual-booting Linux & Win 7, I've learned to install each OS on a separate physical drive. Usually my dual-boot systems will boot up with Grub, and then Linux or (if I choose it) Win 7.

However ... I've had some interesting problems loading Win 7 that way, mostly in terms of installing updates from Microsoft. Some MS updates absolutely refuse to install if I boot Win 7 via Grub, and will only install if Win 7 boots itself completely from MS's own boot up procedure.

In the times that I've removed Grub and found that Win 7 will no longer boot properly (because of something that the Grub and/or Linux installation hosed in Microsoft's boot process), I've always been able to fix it by booting off of a Win 7 installation or repair disc, dropping to a command prompt and running these three commands:

Code: Select all

bootrec /rebuildbcd
bootrec /fixmbr
bootrec /fixboot

More detailed instructions for that are here, if you ever need them:

https://neosmart.net/wiki/fix-mbr/#Fix_ ... _Windows_7

Tharthan · Post by **Tharthan** » 2019-05-24, 20:11

Nigaikaze wrote: ↑
2019-05-24, 13:51
I've had some interesting problems loading Win 7 that way, mostly in terms of installing updates from Microsoft. Some MS updates absolutely refuse to install if I boot Win 7 via Grub

That's interesting, because I recently had Windows Update tell me that it couldn't install a handful of the updates that it had downloaded (it installed a whole bunch, but it couldn't install four or five of them for some reason). Oddly enough, it doesn't list those updates any longer in Windows Update (at least as far as I can tell).

Nigaikaze wrote: ↑
2019-05-24, 13:51
In the times that I've removed Grub and found that Win 7 will no longer boot properly (because of something that the Grub and/or Linux installation hosed in Microsoft's boot process), I've always been able to fix it by booting off of a Win 7 installation or repair disc, dropping to a command prompt and running these three commands:
Code: Select all
bootrec /rebuildbcd
bootrec /fixmbr
bootrec /fixboot

Now, I don't think that I have a repair disc for Windows 7. Would that (now once again hidden) partition work that I mentioned earlier in the thread?

Nigaikaze wrote: ↑
2019-05-24, 13:51
More detailed instructions for that are here, if you ever need them:

https://neosmart.net/wiki/fix-mbr/#Fix_ ... _Windows_7

Thanks!

Cassette wrote: ↑
2019-05-24, 10:45
One way it can happen is if you clone your install to another drive.

Could the double listing of Windows 7 on the GRUB boot screen that I mentioned earlier in the thread have something to do with this somehow?

Pale Moon forum

Pale Moon (28.5.0, 32-bit, Windows 7) hanging/crashing after a few hours. Has been doing this for a few versions.

Pale Moon (28.5.0, 32-bit, Windows 7) hanging/crashing after a few hours. Has been doing this for a few versions.

Re: Pale Moon (28.5.0, 32-bit, Windows 7) crashing after a few hours. Has been doing this for a few versions.

Re: Pale Moon (28.5.0, 32-bit, Windows 7) crashing after a few hours. Has been doing this for a few versions.

Re: Pale Moon (28.5.0, 32-bit, Windows 7) hanging/crashing after a few hours. Has been doing this for a few versions.

Re: Pale Moon (28.5.0, 32-bit, Windows 7) hanging/crashing after a few hours. Has been doing this for a few versions.

Re: Pale Moon (28.5.0, 32-bit, Windows 7) hanging/crashing after a few hours. Has been doing this for a few versions.

Re: Pale Moon (28.5.0, 32-bit, Windows 7) hanging/crashing after a few hours. Has been doing this for a few versions.

Re: Pale Moon (28.5.0, 32-bit, Windows 7) hanging/crashing after a few hours. Has been doing this for a few versions.

Re: Pale Moon (28.5.0, 32-bit, Windows 7) hanging/crashing after a few hours. Has been doing this for a few versions.

Re: Pale Moon (28.5.0, 32-bit, Windows 7) hanging/crashing after a few hours. Has been doing this for a few versions.

Re: Pale Moon (28.5.0, 32-bit, Windows 7) hanging/crashing after a few hours. Has been doing this for a few versions.

Re: Pale Moon (28.5.0, 32-bit, Windows 7) hanging/crashing after a few hours. Has been doing this for a few versions.

Re: Pale Moon (28.5.0, 32-bit, Windows 7) hanging/crashing after a few hours. Has been doing this for a few versions.

Re: Pale Moon (28.5.0, 32-bit, Windows 7) hanging/crashing after a few hours. Has been doing this for a few versions.

Re: Pale Moon (28.5.0, 32-bit, Windows 7) hanging/crashing after a few hours. Has been doing this for a few versions.

Re: Pale Moon (28.5.0, 32-bit, Windows 7) hanging/crashing after a few hours. Has been doing this for a few versions.

Re: Pale Moon (28.5.0, 32-bit, Windows 7) hanging/crashing after a few hours. Has been doing this for a few versions.

Re: Pale Moon (28.5.0, 32-bit, Windows 7) hanging/crashing after a few hours. Has been doing this for a few versions.

Re: Pale Moon (28.5.0, 32-bit, Windows 7) hanging/crashing after a few hours. Has been doing this for a few versions.

Re: Pale Moon (28.5.0, 32-bit, Windows 7) hanging/crashing after a few hours. Has been doing this for a few versions.