Reaching Out for Unity in Pale Moon

[sterlingp]

Dear Moonchild and New Tobin Paradigm,

Looking back on the events that transpired a few years ago during the development of the Pale Moon browser, my heart weighs heavy with the memories of the conflicts that unfolded. The departure of New Tobin Paradigm had a profound impact on all of us involved in the project, widening rifts that have lingered within our community.

New Tobin Paradigm, your absence left a void that was deeply felt, and the challenges we faced in your absence only served to highlight the importance of our collaboration. Moonchild, as the leader of the project, your decisions and actions shaped the course of Pale Moon, influencing the path you walked together.

It pains me to see the project now on its last knees, struggling to survive amidst internal discord and external pressures. The division among us has only weakened our collective efforts to keep Pale Moon thriving. Moonchild, you are now facing the brunt of the attacks that were once directed at New Tobin Paradigm, people are literally calling you M.C. Hitler and calling Tobin a martyr and the weight of this burden is taking its toll.

As I reflect on these past events, I am reminded of the urgency of the situation and the critical need for us to set aside our differences. It is clear that the project is in dire need of unity and solidarity to overcome the challenges that lie ahead. The community was convinced that if Tobin were to leave that unity and new developers would come! This turned out false. Tobin was right. There were enemies in our midst and they have succeeded. Our community cannot afford to continue down this path of animosity and division.

I extend this message with a plea for reconciliation and a call to action. Let us come together once more, united in our commitment to breathe new life into the Pale Moon browser and ensure its continued success. Our strength lies in our ability to work as a cohesive team, supporting each other through thick and thin.

Tobin, if you ever read this, which I know you will do because it is clear that you cared about PaleMoon, know this I think we did you wrong. I am sorry. However it is you that needs to be the first to forgive and reach out a hand to us and I'm sure many of us will gladly grab it and never let go again. Be the bigger man Tobin. Don't let it end. Not like this...

Warm regards,

A Reflective Observer

[Moonchild]

I'm not entirely sure what your goal is with this, but let me at least clarify a few things that you seem to be misinformed about:

The departure of New Tobin Paradigm had a profound impact on all of us involved in the project, widening rifts that have lingered within our community.

It had a profound impact on the project, but it is the opposite of what you seem to believe. People within the project have come together without the overbearing and toxic influence of Tobin. Also, I don't know which "us" you are referring to here because you as an "observer" have obviously not been involved with the collective as much as you seem to express.

We've made excellent progress after we recovered from the malicious backstabbing performed with the hope of either killing off the project or shaping it entirely into his personal pet project, and we're not "on our last knees". There is no internal discord, and the external pressure there is is the same there always was, with the important difference that we're actually finding solutions for them that don't alienate users.

In addition, I'm not sure why you think a 2022 article (self-labeled as rants, so YMMV) about NoScript (and the misinformation in there that our blocking of it would in any way relate to my personal "profits"...?) is relevant 2 years later or has anything to do with Tobin burning his bridges by literally attacking and crippling our project's IT infrastructure.

Let me be clear: there will be no unity with our ex-projectmember. He can do his own thing within the constraints of FOSS, and we will do ours.

If this response confuses you or sounds strange, then I implore you to do some research about what went down around Tobin's exit from the project and educate yourself on the events.

[suzyne]

It pains me to see the project now on its last knees

Really!? My guess is that @sterlingp is a diehard NoScript fan, or something?

[andyprough]

When you read the entire original post in sarcasm voice, it really works quite well. It has to be hardcore sarcasm voice though, not one of those wimpy /s readings.

[billmcct]

Really!? My guess is that @sterlingp is a diehard NoScript fan, or something?

My guess is that it's Tobin. Sure sounds like him.

[Basilisk-Dev]

Tobin, if you ever read this, which I know you will do because it is clear that you cared about PaleMoon, know this I think we did you wrong.

Tobin screwed over the Pale Moon project by maliciously sabotaging server infrastructure, he alienated and insulted users for asking valid questions, and several other things I won't get into here. If you search the web to see if people recommend Pale Moon many people will still say to stay away from the project because of the history of Tobin's antics when he was involved with Pale Moon, despite the fact that he has not been involved for quite a while now.

No wrong was done. In an ironic twist of fate, the guy who calls everyone a moron decided to be the biggest moron of all. He deserved to get banned and removed.

[van p]

sterlingp has a grand total of 1 post here and he wants us to believe he's been deep into it since Day 1? What the hell?!?!?! How much code did this man sling? I must rest.

[Moonchild]

I just find the whole way of speaking strange, at the very least. OP words things as if they are representative of the project community as a whole or as if what they say reflects the thoughts of the devs and community members. Feels a lot like projection. I was on the fence about even approving this post to begin with but decided I may as well expose what was said and correct its statements, just in case it was an actual misinformed user.
I wouldn't get too upset or involved with this thread; my guess is it'd be a one-off probe to see if there's drama to be had. Maybe fishing for some statement to blow up about or what not

[RealityRipple]

The only absence I feel is the absence of concern for someone else's testosterone levels.

[sterlingp]

I appreciate your responses to my initial post. It's clear that emotions run high on this topic, and rightfully so. The Pale Moon project is more than just a browser; it's a community, a shared endeavor, for some a fight against google, and for many, a symbol of something more.

Moonchild, I apologize if my post came across as misinformed or confusing. My intention was not to diminish the progress and unity that the project has achieved since Tobin's exit. It's reassuring to hear from you that the team has come together and made significant strides in his absence. I merely stated my personal opinions on what I could see was the state of the PM project.

I want to acknowledge that the events you both mentioned did not happen in a vacuum. It's clear that both sides have wronged each other to some extent during the course of the conflict. However, I agree that Tobin's actions, particularly the malicious sabotage of server infrastructure, are on another level and should be treated as such. Such behavior is unacceptable and has far-reaching consequences for the project and its community. However can any of you say with a clear consciousness, knowing Tobin’s personality, that you were really surprised by his sabotage actions?

At the same time, I think it's important to keep in mind that prior to his impulsive and damaging actions (not including his antisocial behavior in the forums from day 1), Tobin had contributed over 7 years of hard work as one of the most dedicated developers on the Pale Moon project. While his later behavior is inexcusable, his earlier contributions should not be discounted.

Furthermore, I recall that the community was promised that a horde of developers who, previously deterred by Tobin's presence, would join the project after his departure and that the animosity towards Pale Moon and it’s devs would dissipate along with him. Yet, none of this happened, if one just checks the first page of r/palemoon, it becomes evident that the hate has not diminished but has instead been redirected solely towards you, Moonchild.

It's also worth noting that Moonchild and others have acknowledged that they were aware of Tobin's tendency to alienate the community, yet they tolerated it for a considerable time. This suggests that they bear some responsibility for the situation as well. While Tobin's actions were undoubtedly wrong, it wouldn't be entirely fair to use him as a scapegoat for everything that has gone wrong with Pale Moon’s community building efforts.

I want to clarify that the intention behind my original post was to nudge Tobin to acknowledge his wrongdoing and to be the first to reach out a hand in reconciliation. Knowing his personality and pride, I doubted that he would take such a step without this post serving as a catalyst. My hope was that by expressing the community's sentiments and the impact of his actions, Tobin might be more inclined to reflect on his behavior and take the initiative to mend the broken relationships.

Perhaps my nostalgia for the early days of the project and the sense of camaraderie there once was clouded my judgment.

Let me be clear: there will be no unity with our ex-projectmember.

I understand the pain and frustration that Tobin's actions have caused, and I respect your position on this matter. However, I feel compelled to offer a perspective that I hope you will consider, especially in light of my previous post.

As I mentioned earlier, I believe that the first step towards reconciliation should come from Tobin himself. It is crucial that he acknowledges his wrongdoing and takes responsibility for the harm he has caused. Without a genuine apology from him, any talk of unity would be premature and potentially insincere.

That being said, I urge you to keep an open mind and reserve your final answer for the moment when Tobin does apologize, if that time ever comes. It is only then that your response will truly carry weight and have power.

I understand that the wounds are still there, and trust has been severely damaged. However, I believe that completely shutting the door on the possibility of reconciliation may not be the most constructive approach in the long run. As an adult and a leader, there is strength in being open to the potential for healing and finding a way forward, even in the face of great adversity.

I encourage you to reflect on the shared history and the 7+ years of collaboration that you and Tobin had before this unfortunate turn of events. While his recent actions are inexcusable, it is important not to let them entirely overshadow the positive contributions he made to the project during that time.

Ultimately, the decision is yours, and I respect your right to make it. However, I hope that you will consider the long-term implications of your stance and the message it sends to the community. By keeping the door open, even slightly, for the possibility of reconciliation, you demonstrate a willingness to lead with empathy and to prioritize the greater good of the project.

I trust that you will approach this situation with wisdom and discernment. Should Tobin extend a sincere apology, I hope that you will be open to engaging in a constructive dialogue and exploring the potential for healing and moving forward.

[Moonchild]

I'm sorry but who appointed you counsellor here? Why this unsolicited request for somehow mending that which was broken years ago? I simply don't understand why you are here.
For that matter, it's not even clear who you are, why you feel like you can speak for the community, or what your relationship is with the project or Tobin (of whom you seem to have rather intimate knowledge regarding his personality and what he would or wouldn't do).

Why don't you start there instead of posting argument-laden half-essays trying to somehow assign blame or point out that there's still animosity against the project because of the continued wheel-spinning some haters do in their echo chambers...

[andyprough]

if one just checks the first page of r/palemoon

Trying to appease the redditors - always a useful undertaking.

Amazing that they have any time to criticize this project - you would think that complaining about their incel status and "making millions" by shorting Gamestop stock would keep them fully occupied.

[suzyne]

I wasn't here during Tobin's time on the project, but from what I have read, the direction that Pale Moon was being pushed (by him) was intentionally breaking features that the community of the time actively valued and wanted to be maintained and supported.

That's just my take on one part of what happened, but I don't see why that period should be viewed as a positive time? From the outside looking back, it appears to me as a period of wasted time and development resources. I cannot understand why that period should that be viewed with a nostalgic rosy glow, where the architect of that direction is seen as a hero?

And comments like this are blaming the victim, as though somehow @Moonchild or the community invited Tobin's destructive actions, and therefore share responsibility for them, I find offensive and ridiculous.

However can any of you say with a clear consciousness, knowing Tobin’s personality, that you were really surprised by his sabotage actions?

[andyprough]

I wasn't here during Tobin's time on the project, but from what I have read, the direction that Pale Moon was being pushed (by him) was intentionally breaking features that the community of the time actively valued and wanted to be maintained and supported.

That's just my take on one part of what happened, but I don't see why that period should be viewed as a positive time? From the outside looking back, it appears to me as a period of wasted time and development resources. I cannot understand why that period should that be viewed with a nostalgic rosy glow, where the architect of that direction is seen as a hero?

Actually, Pale Moon was a very good browser during his time with the project and is an even better browser now. I don't recall it being a negative time period. This has always been an exciting project to watch and to use the browser because they've been doing something different and trying to be as standards compliant as possible unlike most browsers.

Some people got upset by his volatile comments in the forum but I always found them amusing. He had created a kind of a persona, like a Hollywood actor or something. It was very much like watching a Joe Pesci film.

[moonbat]

I want to clarify that the intention behind my original post was to nudge Tobin

Then nudge or poke him directly if you can find a way to contact him via his personal website - he has long since been banned from the forum and isn't going to reply here. There's no need to stir up drama here.

[f-117]

His reply...

https://binaryoutcast.com/updates/

[Basilisk-Dev]

His reply...

https://binaryoutcast.com/updates/

It sure is convenient that he saw this thread like a day after it was posted. It's almost like sterlingp is Tobin or something

[andyprough]

It sure is convenient that he saw this thread like a day after it was posted. It's almost like sterlingp is Tobin or something

@moonbat just told the OP to poke him to read this, he should be given the benefit of the doubt that he might have read it after being poked.

I'm glad that he sounds like he's settled down here in Texas and doing well and staying busy. Texas is a pleasant and generally drama-free place to live and to work on your projects. Our prices on food and energy and necessities are generally lower here (although not the lowest). It's probably been a good move for him.

[Moonchild]

I had a quick look at his "updates" post. Immediately labelled as Pale Moon drama and having a pretty lengthy write-up. Of course, he's still claiming we're doing "history rewriting" which is 100% projection - but then again that's what narcissists do. I do agree with the whole "why am I still dealing with this?" though. I'm fine without it and focusing on what we've been doing since that fated day, so that's what we should be doing.
Not sure why this needs to be in the spotlight. For the record, a number of things in his "updates" post are patently false but I'm not going to get involved in it (nobody needs that kind of gaslighting). You can either choose to believe him or not - no skin off of my back.

I'll be locking this thread and moving it off-topic. @sterlingp, if you care to answer my questions, do so in a private message.