r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

General project discussion.
Use this as a last resort if your topic does not fit in any of the other boards but it still on-topic.
Forum rules
This General Discussion board is meant for topics that are still relevant to Pale Moon, web browsers, browser tech, UXP applications, and related, but don't have a more fitting board available.

Please stick to the relevance of this forum here, which focuses on everything around the Pale Moon project and its user community. "Random" subjects don't belong here, and should be posted in the Off-Topic board.
User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 32426
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Tranås, SE
Contact:

Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-07-05, 16:52

Project Fission is basically taking the e10s concept and applying it to every frame on a single page. That's all there is to it, from a design overview perspective.
This workaround is only of concern when you don't have clear site isolation internally already and Firefox IMO has gotten into those waters exactly because they had to externalize (and in some cases do away with) protections that exist inside Pale Moon. With e10s a complex and fallible layer of IPC was introduced that makes the risk of site isolation bugs existing a lot higher than it would ever be in a single process where strict separation of realms is dead simple (compartmentalisation is the bread and butter of OOP and has seen decades of of proven use). IPC will also increase exponentially (maybe even factorially!) with each linked process spawned. See also my post about the downsides of multi-process approaches nobody in mainstream wants to talk about.
Also, from a resource perspective, Fission will be forced to combine sites and frames into a limited number of content processes. Spawning literally a new process for every site and frame on a page would be impossible to make performant. So this will immediately cut into the efficacy of the workaround as well, as their "isolated" frames will still end up in a shared process...
"The best revenge is to not be like the person who wronged you." -- Marcus Aurelius
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
Image

User avatar
jobbautista9
Lunatic
Lunatic
Posts: 476
Joined: 2020-11-03, 06:47
Location: Philippines
Contact:

Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by jobbautista9 » 2022-07-06, 03:30

And now they're censoring my comment here because I'm "posting security-compromising suggestions", lol. Here's what my now removed comment says:
u/pandakekok9 wrote:
2022-07-05, 14:40
I also noticed you changed the message to remove the obviously wrong bits about TLS, AV1, and WebP. Good, but still pretty scummy that nobody from the mod team apologized for their FUD. You're still spreading false information though.
r/firefox wrote: have never published a CVE (mature software teams report their security bugs)
*ale *oon has published three CVEs, all of them patched, so the claim that they have never published a single CVE is wrong.
r/firefox wrote: lacks security improvements like Fission that mitigate against CPU vulnerabilities like Spectre and Meltdown
PM has no need for Fission because it doesn't use multiprocess by design. Again I won't go into why multiprocess is not a good idea, but those who want to know can refer to this forum post. I don't see how Fission even helps secure against Spectre and Meltdown since Firefox has already been patched for Spectre/Meltdown before Fission. This "Site isolation" thing is more of a workaround to an oversight on the multi-process implementation, not an improvement on its own right. All the more reason why multiprocess is bad.

PM was also secured against Spectre/Meltdown before mainstream browsers did. So no, it's not an amateur hobby project that has little regard to security, quite the opposite actually.
mima confirmed

Developer of Ambassador in Window Menu, BrowserTickTock, CacheSwitch, Chrome Navigator, Cite4Wiki, Clickity Touch 'n Push, ColorPili, EditDatContent, EditDatTitle, Esrever, Go Menu, User Agent Status, Website Navigation Bar, and Yet Another about:config Helper.

My PGP public key (My copy on rw.rs)

Touhou avatar by わんどろいど of pixiv

User avatar
athenian200
Contributing developer
Contributing developer
Posts: 750
Joined: 2018-10-28, 19:56
Location: Georgia
Contact:

Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by athenian200 » 2022-07-06, 04:54

I would say that Mozilla fans are probably among the people who feel the most threatened by Pale Moon. Their fans have the knives out for us somewhat and are actively interested in misleading us or attacking our reputation individually, because Mozilla is primarily still a desktop browser and has not made significant inroads into the mobile space. They feel at least somewhat threatened by Pale Moon's existence because they know that the traditional Firefox crowd will be tempted by it, and won't be as happy to reluctantly go where Mozilla is leading if they are given another option.

So their attempts at this are not particularly surprising.
"There are two sentences inscribed upon the Ancient oracle... 'Know thyself' and 'Nothing too much'; and upon these all other precepts depend." -- Plutarch

User avatar
Kerebron
Moonbather
Moonbather
Posts: 74
Joined: 2016-12-04, 22:01

Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by Kerebron » 2022-07-06, 05:29

athenian200 wrote:
2022-07-06, 04:54
Their fans have the knives out for us somewhat and are actively interested in misleading us or attacking our reputation individually (...) So their attempts at this are not particularly surprising.
Do you really think that this kind of behaviour is attracting anyone to Firefox? :think:

User avatar
athenian200
Contributing developer
Contributing developer
Posts: 750
Joined: 2018-10-28, 19:56
Location: Georgia
Contact:

Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by athenian200 » 2022-07-06, 05:53

Kerebron wrote:
2022-07-06, 05:29
Do you really think that this kind of behaviour is attracting anyone to Firefox? :think:
You would be surprised how effective spreading FUD can be. It's not so much geared towards attracting outsiders to Firefox as it is to making those within the Firefox camp who are having doubts about the direction Firefox is taking afraid to consider alternatives by planting doubt. Firefox is not attracting new users, it's trying to avoid losing existing ones.

They make them convinced the alternatives are not viable, and that Mozilla is the only alternative to Chrome worth considering. They position themselves as the only realistic rival to Chromium, despite the fact that they usually follow the same path a year later. Firefox is sort of like the browser equivalent of those phone companies that followed Apple's lead in removing the headphone jack after mocking them for doing it initially.
"There are two sentences inscribed upon the Ancient oracle... 'Know thyself' and 'Nothing too much'; and upon these all other precepts depend." -- Plutarch

User avatar
Kerebron
Moonbather
Moonbather
Posts: 74
Joined: 2016-12-04, 22:01

Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by Kerebron » 2022-07-06, 08:09

I'm afraid you might be right athenian200. Some kind of tribalism that Moonchild wrote about a while ago.

Maybe we can offer them some cloth and beads to make them more docile? :angel:

User avatar
Sajadi
Board Warrior
Board Warrior
Posts: 1151
Joined: 2013-04-19, 00:46

Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by Sajadi » 2022-07-06, 09:46

jobbautista9 wrote:
2022-07-06, 03:30
And now they're censoring
The tolerance of Progressives... Put them into a corner which they can't leave without showing who they really are and censorship is their solution :mrgreen:

User avatar
moonbat
Knows the dark side
Knows the dark side
Posts: 3991
Joined: 2015-12-09, 15:45
Contact:

Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by moonbat » 2022-07-07, 05:07

Participating on r/firefox is pointless - all I do is once in a while browse the 'most controversial' posts which invariably tend to be about people reporting bugs and/or unwanted changes that are ignored or dismissed, and leave a couple of snarky comments there :twisted:
I've long ago stopped mentioning Pale Moon there, the addition of a bot must mean people are referring to it often enough for them to feel threatened by it.
"One hosts to look them up, one DNS to find them and in the darkness BIND them."

Image
Linux Mint 20.1 Xfce x64 on HP i5-5200 laptop, 12 GB RAM.
AutoPageColor|PermissionsPlus|PMPlayer|Pure URL|RecordRewind|TextFX

User avatar
lucas_jooj
Moongazer
Moongazer
Posts: 11
Joined: 2021-06-18, 06:22

Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by lucas_jooj » 2022-07-19, 02:50

That board is a joke, I'm not sure if I was banned just for being subbed to r/MozillaInAction or for some witty comment (・・;).
Either way, not worth engaging there since actual bug and crashes reports are downvoted for "giving a bad image" or whatever, and I'm sure there are better boards to post if all you want is post bad stuff about Google and no other corporation.
Off-topic:
btw for people that casually browse reddit every now and then w/o any account, replacing "reddit.com" to teddit.net on the location bar is the best way to view whatever post you want imo

User avatar
Peter Power
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: 2022-07-22, 16:10
Contact:

Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by Peter Power » 2022-07-30, 08:23

Hello Ladies and Gentlemen,

Just to quickly bump on the topic, I never used reedit myself but it looks like a third of the topics are kind of casual light entertainment to me. (Take it easy Reedit)

Some information here on the forum are important to me, and accessible to the main public - that's great - but should be accessible directly from the Pale Moon site as a proof / effort of transparency.
Any topic like the one you are talking in this topic - state of the javascript engine, CVE - or others related to money, sponsor etc.... this kind of stuff just a bit on the main website wouldn't hurt I guess.
I wouldn't expect the average user to read / go through the forum to get an answer about what's true or not, or what's possible.

The first 5 minutes I browser the forum, I was like
- "Dude, there are so many pinned topics"
- "Why are so many people banned?"
- "Who the f*** was Tobin" ? :wtf:

The forum is becoming slowly a kind of notepad / alternative wiki so that's helping to keep important information but that's not helping you to spread information in an appropriate way / manner / mood, isn't it ? Just my 2 cents, I suppose lots of history underground :crazy:

Cheers, keep up the good work and have a nice week-end all :thumbup:

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 32426
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Tranås, SE
Contact:

Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-07-30, 08:46

Peter Power wrote:
2022-07-30, 08:23
Any topic like the one you are talking in this topic - state of the javascript engine, CVE - or others related to money, sponsor etc.... this kind of stuff just a bit on the main website wouldn't hurt I guess.
Basic information about the project, sponsors etc. is available on the website if you care to look.
"State of the javascript engine" is subject to change often, and will be too deep a dive anyway for the average person just wanting to know about the browser.
I don't want to sink time every day into updating the website when it's a short hop to the forum, using search to ask your question, etc.
"The best revenge is to not be like the person who wronged you." -- Marcus Aurelius
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
Image

User avatar
tcaudilllg
Moongazer
Moongazer
Posts: 11
Joined: 2021-04-05, 18:05

Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by tcaudilllg » 2022-07-31, 14:14

jobbautista9 wrote:
2022-07-03, 14:01
andyprough wrote:
2022-07-03, 13:25
I think it has support for AV1, right? It's enabled in the default .mozconfig.
The standard mozconfig builds AV1 support into the browser, but it's currently disabled from the Preferences, which can be easily enabled back.
andyprough wrote:
2022-07-03, 13:25
I don't know what Shadow DOM/Custom Elements is - does Pale Moon implement that
They're part of the WebComponents package. We don't have full support of Shadow DOM yet. Custom Elements Is not implemented yet either.
\

Custom elements are basically a method of implementing stuff like Angular and React do but in the actual browser itself (both Angular and React updated themselves to emit WebComponents and it's the reason so many websites are breaking in Palemoon now, because practically every professional site is using one of the two). Shadow DOM is the idea of custom elements encapsulating their internal DOM hierarchies (it makes sense when you consider the custom elements can themselves theoretically have child elements... you don't want the constituent elements appearing along with the elements that are actually in the markup). There is also a "Decorator" API by which you specify attributes for custom elements. The fourth and final part of WebComponents are templates, which is just the HTML that makes up a custom element (think imported markup).

If you've ever used .Net WebForms, you have an idea of what custom elements are. They are basically an non-MS answer to WebForms controls. Javascript has also been altered (with proper classes, but not yet proper types) to facilitate the design of WebComponent controls.
Never forget nor forgive the Addonocalypse.

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 32426
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Tranås, SE
Contact:

Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-07-31, 15:08

tcaudilllg wrote:
2022-07-31, 14:14
basically a method of implementing stuff like Angular and React do but in the actual browser itself (both Angular and React updated themselves to emit WebComponents
and if you want to know why, just look at who vendored those frameworks.
"The best revenge is to not be like the person who wronged you." -- Marcus Aurelius
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
Image

User avatar
Chirac
New to the forum
New to the forum
Posts: 1
Joined: 2020-06-27, 19:12

Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by Chirac » 2022-08-03, 18:03

Reddit is generally very obsolete anyway. It's very basic, and illegible for the average user. Good thing Internet forums were invented. With so many more features and a natural, logical way to follow discussions, forums simply killed Reddit. And don't get me started on Twitter.

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 32426
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Tranås, SE
Contact:

Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-08-03, 20:22

I agree that Reddit's total lack of control has made it a cesspool. It's the other way around though; Reddit has made many smaller projects give up their fora in favour of Reddit. it makes sense to unburden oneself from running and moderating a forum if that can be offloaded to a popular platform.
"The best revenge is to not be like the person who wronged you." -- Marcus Aurelius
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
Image

struppi
Hobby Astronomer
Hobby Astronomer
Posts: 27
Joined: 2016-11-30, 08:28

Re: r/firefox is spreading disinformation about Pale Moon

Unread post by struppi » 2022-08-04, 06:03

I don't think that this is really a technical issue. Mozilla is a part of big players who want control the internet. and they use different ways to do this. One is the growing legal issues. It is getting harder and harder to make a internet site without being with one feet in prison.

The other is the fake news and propaganda part of the media, where all "wrong" opinions are getting discriminiated and elimated from the net. I guess you know Mozillafoundation to "fight misinformation" https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/moz ... on-online/

It is the same like they argue against "alternative" media and blame them for all those things you already heard somewhere. So they also try to kick out "alternative" Browser. The point I see is, if you don't like some web technics, like data transmission without consent or complete overloaded heavy sites where you forced to click this and agree that law, then you won't have an alternative anymore in the future, if only chrome and firefox are the browsers you can use. They impelement everything the big players want and for sure at the end they will break also the encryption for the secret service.

This "technical" issues are only a small part to blaming the "wrong" site of (their) truth and the big player can gather control.

So, please go on as long as possible, that we have a little freedom

Post Reply