it seems to be all about chrome

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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by user88818 » 2021-06-28, 10:15

It's been an excellent topic I see … (it's me user88818) I started the topic. Some of the arguments for keeping pale moon were I want to suffer basically, anything rather than use evil chrome. I wish I could be that way but pale moon is now secondary. Before I go on I want to thank the design team I had a great ride. It was for a time the best browser I was fortunate enough to have, I used Firefox build 57 extensions ripped and implanted into pale moon and they worked perfectly. The updates finally deactivated them. But that's not the only reason why it now just a secondary browser.

media is probably the number one reason example YouTube. Vivaldi is so much quicker and better. Kind of figures YouTube is Google.Vivaldi plays no YouTube advertising as well surprise me…pale moon was killing me with ads and I couldn't stop them… My version of pale moon does not load occasional web pages leaving me locked out.

I managed to get Vivaldi to navigate the web pretty good not as good as sweet as pale moon I admit, mouse gestures and context menus don't make as much sense as pale moon was perfect.

For me pale moon was as close to perfection the way I put it together myself with the extensions as a browser could be. I now believe I will never see anything as good ever again. I will have to make compromises things I don't like but just get used to it. This is what everybody does anyway but I never ever had to compromise until now.

Yes I hate Google somebody should burn down there headquarters but you can't use a browser and suffer just because you hate. Vivaldi has so many flaws their insane it's their design. They say they're the best browser for options they have a ton of them and most are useless and key control is missing there basically liars pure hype . But ignoring all the stuff they lie about and with great effort using their settings and extensions it surfs the web quite strong One nice thing about Vivaldi is the built-in mail client which works and works okay but disgusting overdesigned and optimization it's just not there you just ignore all the buttons you're looking at find the one you want and that's about it. But it is there. Vivaldi the browser that does everything but what a screw up just don't use 80% of it and like I said it surfs the net well. But they are so full of themselves it's incredible. The support team seem like oversensitive little girls. Nowhere near as cool as here.

I tried Google chrome, that's the devil reincarnated, I tried the new Firefox, the new Opera,switching browsers is a nightmare because for me and for some others like yourself it takes months to try to get to know it and find the right extensions tune it up …customizing it's really time-consuming… I had so much time committed into Vivaldi I was exhausted to try something else.but it surfs the web quite strong and the mouse gestures and I've also got a programmable mouse to add extra browser features it surfs for me really well. My mouse has 12 buttons with endless programmable. They just don't make mice like this anymore, I have three of them

also sadly I was forced to use chrome base browser I couldn't even log into my bank anymore with pale moon a move by the bank that made me furious.I hated them for that. That took place in May 2021

so I started the thread it's all about chrome and it unfortunately seems true mostly . This world is going down the tube with proprietary this and scams . Like I said I'm never going to have the perfect browser ever again. Thanks pale moon I really really appreciate you more than I can say.

Best regards user88818

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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by Tharthan » 2021-06-28, 11:49

See rule 1i:
Do not make [...] posts that serve no purpose other than "I'm upset with X and leaving".
[...]
We understand if you are upset or unhappy for whatever reason and that it prompts you to leave the browser (and inherently the forum as well) behind, but just posting something inflammatory, heated or otherwise upset posts because of your state of mind is still just as much against the forum rules as posting inflammatory material otherwise.
I wouldn't have noted this, other than the fact that your post is a huge wall of text about you leaving, and has a defeatist attitude.

What does that accomplish?
Last edited by Tharthan on 2021-06-28, 14:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by moonbat » 2021-06-28, 12:30

user88818 wrote:
2021-06-28, 10:15
pale moon was killing me with ads and I couldn't stop them
Heaven forbid you install any of the several adblocker extensions available for it :roll:

So basically instead of keeping a Chrome clone around for the occasional site that doesn't work, you decide to burn bridges completely? :wtf:
Bravo. Unless of course you exclusively visit FAANG and your bank website, in which case I pity you.
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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-06-28, 13:09

So the first thing I do when I wake up is check the forum. Before I even sit up or even turn a light on I take a sip of water from my cup, grab my cellular telephone, and I check the unread posts. I do this to get an idea of what I will be focusing on and balancing my time with among various tasks to perform that day that flood my awareness as I wake up.

For a number of years I have done this. However, in the last few years it hasn't been as pleasent of a ritual as it used to be. As many should know by now.. I have read every english post on this forum since late 2013 and most non-english posts. I check them when I wake up, multiple times through the day, and before I go to sleep at night. Some days are dedicated soley to this forum either helping people or dealing with those minimally exceptional freaks out to destroy us and all points in between.

I relate this because I want to express a question: How do you think it makes me feel to wake up every day and read something like this most mornings?

This question is not one I want to focus on too much as it does tend to be open to interpretation and is highly subjective and does get in the way of the work I must accomplish but not asking it does that just the same because one can only ignore such things for so long before it shoves its self to the forefront even though it should have stayed an irrelevant triviality.

So how does it make me me feel? Unsettled. Upset. Sometimes even angry. I and others have put so much work into the continuing development of Pale Moon, UXP, and related projects and services. To read a post like the one above Tharthan's is to start the day from a negative standpoint perhaps even one of false failure that is just as pervasive as actual failure. When you wake up and read that you might be a failure most mornings (even when it is not the case in fact or reality) it drags on you the rest of the day in a way that often leads to low productivity and even small tangible failures. Failure to accomplish the list of tasks for the day. Failure to keep your temper. Failure to spot an error in a patch. Failure to make a correct critical decision creating additional work later. AND MOST IMPORTANT.. Failure to even give a crap that day.

So how did waking up to this post specifically make me feel this morning? In the immortal words of Tourettes Guy in regards to his experience with Colgate Toothpaste (the one with tartar control) IT MADE ME FEEL LIKE A PIECE OF SHIT!

Thank you for your attention.
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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by mr tribute » 2021-06-28, 14:57

user88818 wrote:
2021-06-28, 10:15
This world is going down the tube with proprietary this and scams .
It's true that it's all about Chrome, but I don't know why you bother with proprietary code when Brave is FOSS and blocks ads and FLoC out of the box. Just don't enable BAT (Brave ads for "monetary" compensation).

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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-06-28, 17:38

Brave is also just a skin over Chrome. So it's still about Chrome.
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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by moonbat » 2021-07-01, 07:02

Brave, Edge, Opera, Vivaldi, Bromite, UCBrowser, DuckDuckGo Browser, xyz browser - everything is a skin over Chrome or is wannabe Chrome aka Firefox. This is the last place left with an independent browser engine.
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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by shevy » 2021-08-18, 19:47

> I wonder where all those fantastic writers for extensions went

Probably to chrome. For many of them it is simpler to operate within a de-facto monopoly.

> Yeah what a bummer… Maybe Vivaldi.

Which is ... chrome. So I don't really understand an anti-chrome attitude while then being
fine to use vivaldi. (Actually vivaldi is really nice to use, despite it being a chrome based
clone.)

> in that four hours it played every website perfectly.

This is a bit of a chicken-egg problem. Of course websites targeting chrome will work
better.

> Basically I'm just ranting because the world is changing and I see things getting worse

Yeah. In +20 years you'll see new things that became worse. ;)

But then you may understand those who try to preserve "old goodness" better.

> It must be super difficult to keep an independent browser operating in a chrome world.

I guess so. Just the funding issue alone - look at all the money Google generates via ads.
Competing against a drone worker army of corporate software folks is very difficult. Even
Linux has tons of "private" contributors (e. g. funded by companies).

It's not a simple thing to want to fix or resolve.

For me personally it does not matter because my primary use case for palemoon was so
that I can abandon mozilla - already prior to that I did not want to use google controlled
chrome (but I still use vivaldi etc... from time to time, so I am not a "purist"). Tackling
down chrome is very hard though. IMO it may be better to focus on other things, e. g.
powerusers, or as you said, extension writers. It would be great if extensions could be
written in a super-simple variant perhaps, rather than mandating XML. Like to make it
so simple to create such addons that even literally 5 years old could easily do that.

I don't use many extensions anymore though - the only one I still need is ublock origin
and I am fine using the legacy add-on for that too.

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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-08-19, 01:48

We have this thing called quoting.. Use it.
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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-08-19, 09:12

Off-topic:
Also, please don't fix your line length to whatever your screen width is when posting. The forum does a good job of flowing content to fit people's window sizes and having line breaks everywhere in your posts makes it a lot worse to read on different screen sizes.
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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by darkrats » 2021-09-09, 15:46

Why is it that every browser that "goes chrome" has to use the same, identical visuals (as in location of tabs, flat colorless buttons, etc) in their design? Palemoon uses the traditional "3D" buttons and tabs, which I really appreciate. I can even overlook the few websites that might be difficult for Palemoon to display as designed, just to know that my browser will always look the same after every update. I do use the "Moonfox3" theme to add some color to my toolbars, and the result is like a small work of art, to my eyes.

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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by vannilla » 2021-09-09, 18:23

darkrats wrote:
2021-09-09, 15:46
Why is it that every browser that "goes chrome" has to use the same, identical visuals (as in location of tabs, flat colorless buttons, etc) in their design?
Because it's trendy.
As much as people try to cite studies saying that "adding a certain X can make the users's eyes less tired" (or some other reason), the majority of the currently popular design choices are just that: popular and trendy.
Please note that throughout history this has always been happening, be it a certain architectural style (i.e. how to build houses), a certain painting style, or even something more mundane like the shape of men's beards.
What we are seeing now is just another iteration of the same human habits. In a few years we're going to see some other design taking place.
For example, after the low-contrast greyish colors that were popular around 2015, developers are ditching everything for shades of black following the dark theme meme, so things are changing as we speak.

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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by Alister » 2021-09-29, 20:02

Off-topic:
Moonchild wrote:
2021-06-28, 17:38
Brave is also just a skin over Chrome. So it's still about Chrome.
It seems that Brave removed various spyware modules from Google, and other unnecessary elements, but added several of their own unnecessary elements, even if you do not need them, they still load into memory and cannot be disabled (even if you turned some of them off).

For example, they removed the google translator which I often use. And it has to be installed as a plugin, which doesn't work as conveniently as the built-in one. The browser itself consumes more memory than Chrome in my opinion, although it claims otherwise.

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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by Likestofish » 2021-09-29, 21:54

Apologies for a long post:

First off, I've enjoyed Pale Moon more than any other browser, and for me that even includes SeaMonkey which for a brief period of time captured my attention in ways that only SeaMonkey lovers can relate too (still try it out from time to time, though I don't use it anymore - it reached a point where it couldn't do what I needed it to do). Pale Moon has been a fortress of balance, usability, and simple sanity with an understated elegance in the midst of a frenetic and frankly, mad, general race to desolation on teh intertubes that I've personally noticed underway since 2008. In short, it affords the best of what pre-Lizard Wrangler Mozilla used to provide, and even more on top of that. The online duel between "The Lizard" and "The Lizard Wrangler", the strange limiting, even dumbing down of a certain search engine's results, and the emergence of Chrome in that same year signalled a fundamental change in direction of the web. More perceptive people with longer memories than mine seemed to notice things were already starting to slide even before then. A decade after switching to Pale Moon as my default browser, used across three different operating systems, and more determined than ever to hold on to it as long as it I can, I regard Chrome in whatever form works best for me as web compatibility solution, nothing more, to be used as and only when necessary. Neither Chrome nor any variation thereof provides anything like the experience that Pale Moon does. And no one here needs to be told what that is.

Secondly, Giants Fall. In no way am I saying that Chrome is in any danger at present or in the foreseeable future of failing; when Netscape was clearly sinking and Mozilla was created as a sort of lifeboat, there was still nearly a decade of dominance by Microsoft and its notorious creation ahead. And today official and especially de facto web standards are established in a manner arguably even more prejudicial than they were then. Even so, Pale Moon is a sort of life raft in the midst of the rise of a new monopoly and the fall of a former giant-slayer. I'm clinging to the life raft as long as it lasts.

Finally as a sort of postlude, Chrome's increasing frequency of serious security vulnerabilties over the past year seem reminescent of the early stages of a former giant's decline and fall. People will only tolerate failure and vulnerability for so long as in the case of IE6, and then began looking elsewhere. What that elsewhere might be the next time I have no idea.

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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by Alister » 2021-10-01, 14:29

Chrome completely captured the market when they created android - a competitive operating system for mobile devices and made deals with manufacturers. They chose their time very well - at a time when the Internet has become more and more "mobile". Now most phones and tablets have an operating system and a browser from Google. Therefore, the Internet is completely in the hands of this corporation.

They don't stop there, their goals are much more ambitious. For example, they wanted to introduce Google glasses, but they failed due to problems with legislation. They created a chrome-book, but as far as I know it has not received proper distribution. I think they will continue their expansion in other technology-related industries. They do not give up their attempts. Now they are busy with artificial intelligence and machine learning, which is the future.

In fact, it is the world's dominant corporation with a lot of money, and therefore influence. Where there is money, there is power and government. I don't think Google has any serious competitors. And if it falls, it will most likely happen from within, as happened to the Roman Empire at the time. Or, if they face stronger opposition, for example, from the state or another corporation. And until then, we are waiting for a mono-culture that will worsen and distort Internet standards.

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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by mr tribute » 2021-10-02, 01:44

The Web has come to a dead end:
https://drewdevault.com/2020/03/18/Reck ... scope.html
The total word count of the W3C specification catalogue is 114 million words at the time of writing. If you added the combined word counts of the C11, C++17, UEFI, USB 3.2, and POSIX specifications, all 8,754 published RFCs, and the combined word counts of everything on Wikipedia’s list of longest novels, you would be 12 million words short of the W3C specifications.

I conclude that it is impossible to build a new web browser. The complexity of the web is obscene. The creation of a new web browser would be comparable in effort to the Apollo program or the Manhattan project.

It is impossible to:

Implement the web correctly
Implement the web securely
Implement the web at all
Mozilla is dead. It is a subsidiary of Google that only exists to push Web standards for Google. Google owns the Web.
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This feeling didn’t last. In 2016, I wrote In Memoriam - Mozilla, and in 2017, Firefox is on a slippery slope. Well, I was right, and Firefox (and Mozilla) have only become worse since. The fuck-up culture is so ingrained in Mozilla in 2020 that it’s hard to see it ever getting better again.

In the time since my last article on the subject, Mozilla has:

Laid off 25% of its employees, mostly engineers, many of whom work on Firefox
Raised executive pay 400% as their market share declined 85%
Sent a record of all browsing traffic to CloudFlare by default
Added advertisements to the new tab page on Firefox
Used their brand to enter the saturated VPN grift market
Built a walled garden for add-ons, then let the walls crash in
Started, and killed, a dozen projects which were not Firefox
The most interesting things they’ve been involved in in the past few years are Rust and Servo, and they fired most or all of their engineers involved in both. And, yesterday, Mozilla published a statement siding with Google on anti-trust, failing to disclose the fact that Google pays to keep their lights on.
Let me point out the irony of present day Mozilla. They try to diversify with pointless stuff like Pocket etc. A long time ago they were building an application platform. Thunderbird was a first class Mozilla citizen. There was a Calendar application (I don't think Lightning existed at this time). In short: Mozilla was building the future.

Google came with lots of money. Told Mozilla to bet the farm on Firefox. Throw out everything else. Who needs an email application anyway? Thunderbird was out in the cold. The application platform became a distant memory, eventually replaced by Electron by Google.

Firefox is now full of telemetry and can change your preferences remotely through the normandy framework. Mozilla CEO laughs all the way to the bank and those employees that remain - unless they work from home, might enjoy some time at the premium San Francisco and Paris offices.

One might say that all that is left of Mozilla is UXP and Pale Moon. Everything else is Chromium and smoke and mirrors. Two brands, Google and Mozilla: same owner, fake competition and a dead Web.

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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by Alister » 2021-10-02, 19:19

I think Mozilla killed herself earlier when she destroyed compatibility with old extensions and created a new "superfast" browser that requires more memory and processor resources and has no extensions. That's when I switched from it to Pale moon.

But it's not even about Mozilla. Google has supplanted all other browsers because of android and because it was the leading search engine. Thus, it is simply impossible to compete with them. They have mobile devices and a leading search engine on their side. And what do other browsers have to compete in the market? Even Microsoft gave up. Except that Apple's share with their Safari has changed little.

As we can see, it's not enough just to have a good browser. You need to have behind you the "iron" or "hardware" power to promote your software - mobile devices, computers.

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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by Baloo » 2021-10-19, 14:46

Youtube aside, I still find that Pale Moon works for a wide variety of the websites that I enjoy using. Just because everyone is getting their content from the same five websites doesn't mean this browser isn't still worthwhile in a lot of respects. Can never understand that. To anyone reading this topic: Yes, you too can personally use the internet without using Google products. And I say that as someone who has to use a GMail account for school. Plenty of other opportunities out there for things that aren't tied to the Google monopoly.
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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by Tharthan » 2021-10-19, 16:50

Baloo wrote:
2021-10-19, 14:46
Just because everyone is getting their content from the same five websites doesn't mean this browser isn't still worthwhile in a lot of respects. Can never understand that. To anyone reading this topic: Yes, you too can personally use the internet without using Google products.
I watched the congressional hearing involving a whistleblower for a certain gigantic social media company. The whistleblower claimed at one point in the hearing that, in certain parts of the world, the Internet itself was the social media company in question. That social media platform was the Internet for people in that part of the world.

The whole current situation is just wrong right now. It is far worse than the old AOL situation. AOL was usable (though certainly not great), and did manage to bring a lot of people online. Not to mention, a lot of people who initially first went online via AOL came to branch out and not stay limited to just one or two spots on the Internet. And, eventually, almost everyone who came to the Internet with AOL eventually dropped AOL.

And people who didn't use AOL, although certainly impacted by the mass influx of new AOL users, were still able to do what they had been doing before.

The current reality more or less punishes those who don't use social media or smartdevices.

I even heard on the radio, where a local public official was on and discussing something related to the subject, that it came up that not everyone uses social media or a smartphone.

His response? It was something along the lines of "Yeah, there are some people like that. But, really, who cares about them? In any case, back to what I was talking about..."

The fact is, Baloo, that if one is among the people who isn't utterly dependent on social media platforms (to the point that the majority of one's Internet usage is in about at most five spots), one is considered bizarre and awkward.

There is no good reason for that, of course. But that is nevertheless the current situation.
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Re: it seems to be all about chrome

Unread post by Alister » 2021-10-21, 07:22

Tharthan wrote:
2021-10-19, 16:50
The current reality more or less punishes those who don't use social media or smartdevices.
As soon as mobile phones appeared, social networks and many other sites began to demand your mobile phone number. What if I don't use a mobile phone? It seems that nowadays having a mobile phone is an unspoken duty of every person on earth.

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