The fate of forks.

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The fate of forks.

Unread post by Batman » 2021-09-15, 01:42

The Pale Moon developers have apparently decided to not have a git repo anymore. But they are legally obligated to provide source code and therefore still provide tarball archives. So I believe forks can and will continue to exist, as they should. I'm not sure what the developers think they are accomplishing.

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Re: The fate of forks.

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-09-15, 06:31

We don't have a problem with forks existing. That is entirely the wrong assumption, but it is the narrative opponents to our efforts are trying to sell to everyone.
The potential inconvenience for legitimate forks (for as far as they exist) is unfortunate, but with how we have been treated we are no longer providing the convenience of a public repository to serve those who attack us and feel entitled to take our work then take a dump on us.

That is our decision to make. How we perform our development is up to us, after all.

To put in context:
Feodor, publisher of Mypal wrote:I know in general that with opensource code anybody can do whatever they want.
i.e. entitled to the privilege of it, but refusing to accept the responsibilities.
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Re: The fate of forks.

Unread post by athenian200 » 2021-09-15, 13:41

Batman wrote:
2021-09-15, 01:42
The Pale Moon developers have apparently decided to not have a git repo anymore. But they are legally obligated to provide source code and therefore still provide tarball archives. So I believe forks can and will continue to exist, as they should. I'm not sure what the developers think they are accomplishing.
This isn't about killing forks. In my view, it's more of a formal acknowledgement of the way we've been operating up to now and the hostility we've faced from the broader community. Try reading this:

http://catb.org/%7eesr/writings/cathedr ... al-bazaar/

It's called "The Cathedral and the Bazaar," by Eric Steven Raymond. This was one of the books that, incidentally, influenced the executives at Netscape to release their code to the public in the first place.

If you read over it, you'll see that the project has enjoyed very few of the benefits of the Bazaar style of development lately, and most of the core contributors have been essentially been forced to operate in Cathedral mode to keep the project alive whether the development is "open" or not. That is to say, for me personally at least, the vision of the community no longer matches my vision. To be blunt, much of the community I feel the project has been saddled with for now seems quite lazy, lacking in motivation, uninterested in the complexities of development and contribution, unable to perform work to a high standard of quality, and also primarily interested in counter-productive things like Windows XP support and running unmodified Firefox extensions. What I want to do, is make a serious attempt to bring something based on the concepts behind XUL into the future rather than simply relive nostalgia and keep old stuff on life support.

When we had a Bazaar, we did not get very much of what that book promised. Instead we mostly had people looting whatever we built, distracting us, and defiling it as we continued to essentially operate in a Cathedral mode between interruptions, while giving us little or nothing back. Furthermore, it made it easier for rivals such as Google or Mozilla (among others) to keep tabs on what we were doing and respond before we even made a release. We also dealt with unreleased software and code being leaked and used to judge the project as a whole negatively. Remember that Netscape as a whole actually still failed as a company even after releasing their source code, and overall the picture painted is not a rosy one.

So, in light of the increased need for operational security due to various internal and external pressures, the Bazaar has been shut down, and the Cathedral walls have been rebuilt. Acknowledging what was essentially the reality anyway. This doesn't actually mean we aren't open source, though. The GNU project itself actually operated as a Cathedral historically, releasing source code tarballs only with each release, so there is precedent for this type of development even on the non-commercial side of the fence, though in recent years it is rarer.

In my view, Bazaar development only works when there is an alignment between the community's desires and technical expertise, and what the developers want to provide. But most of the community surrounding this particular project simply don't understand what we want to do, have unrealistic expectations, tend to sabotage our efforts, and have a very poor understanding of technology in general. So that leaves us with closing ourselves off and attempting to defend our resources.
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Re: The fate of forks.

Unread post by Lunokhod » 2021-09-15, 13:46

The public git repo is the one main thing I have wondered about as well. Even Mozilla Firefox publishes this data. I have seen many negative comments about Firefox and it's developers on here, yet they seem to just ignore them. Searching on the Mozilla repo briefly I couldn't find any commits by Moonchild or Matt Tobin, possibly you use other names if you contribute there, who knows. It was interesting seeing the development progressing in the repo and at times others would assist in various ways, perhaps not often but it did happen.
Removing the repo reminds me of this article:
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/09 ... error.html
That is, in defeating the enemy you can risk defeating yourself in some regards at the same time.
And with New Tobin Paradigm declaring his code closed source, although I think this does not affect the Pale Moon browser itself, that does create a moral problem with regard to that from the Linux users perspective:
https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/proprietary.en.html
While it varies how strictly such ideals are adhered to, many would seek to avoid using closed source code wherever possible. That is one of the main reasons often cited to avoid Chrome, with it's semi-proprietary nature.
I know this has been a difficult time for you lately, apologies for mentioning it if it is too soon to discuss such things.
Wait, it's all Ohio? Always has been...

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Re: The fate of forks.

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-09-15, 14:21

We aren't GNU nor have ever operated as or under their core philosophy. While there is some overlap our products, the applications and extensions we do collectively have always been basically proprietary larger works based on open source community code. The branding makes it proprietary because by definition the branding and any other small bits and bobs included are not Covered Software under the Mozilla Pubic License.

Though the proprietary skin is exceedingly thin in this case it does not prevent others from doing the same because large swaths aren't otherwise missing when the proprietary aspect is stripped off. We even provide direct support to facilitating that by not using official branding.

However, even that was badly abused and what was supposed to be generic for anyone to use "New Moon" became entanged with various modes of false attributing and deceptive and implied endorsement over something we could not and had no intention to control. To those outside looking in New Moon was for years equated to Pale Moon and that still happens though those in the loop also know New Moon is exclusively XP. To effectively take a generic name meant to give freedom and use it for broad deception and also exclusive brand identity is terribly underhanded. Considering all paries prior tried to steal the Pale Moon brand first and foremost.

Still, taking our names and creating this false endorsement illusion wasn't enough. They are all actively conspiring with other previously unaffiliated groups of enemy agents to commit worse and worse acts upon us while continuing to fight us directly or indirectly with our own name. Eg the Sub-reddit. Now the next level is to break the license while claiming they did nothing wrong but then turn around and falsely accuse us of the same thing like 7 year olds. They through longer term operations have spent years infiltrating and the result is the black hat hacker actions by JustOff and also djames1 stealing, using, and giving full commit log from a year-now private repo. Materal theft of unreleased code for a competing product. That's some serious criminal behavior right there.

While we have always operated in good faith in an open, even if sometimes an openly irate, manner.. Everyone around us and some of the various past contributors have not. To the point where no one BUT us wants to do anything to help us. The well is effectively poisoned now. Luckily we have an alternative and secure supply of life giving water. Though you will have to pick up a crate of bottles we prepare instead of going to the new well yourselves.

That is now the world we live in. That is what these effective terrorists have done. Though unlike 9/11 cited in an earlier post where authorities were over joyed to have a situation to exploit even to this day, we hate that this has to be the situation and take no joy in it.

None, because it is a disgrace to even have to do this in opposition to what we tried to do in the past. It is sad but there aren't any options or prospect of alternatives open at this time.
Of course, all these failures mount up and could easily end up costing more collectively than paying a proper rage would.
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Re: The fate of forks.

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-09-15, 23:28

Lunokhod wrote:
2021-09-15, 13:46
And with New Tobin Paradigm declaring his code closed source, although I think this does not affect the Pale Moon browser itself, that does create a moral problem with regard to that from the Linux users perspective
I'm sorry but if someone takes open source code and works with it in their own private space, then that is exactly the kind of freedom that the Open Source philosophy is all about. That isn't, at all, "declaring something closed source"; it is declaring that someone wants to have the freedom to make the code work the way they want to. It is only when we are dealing with (re-)publishing software based on that source code that the question of open or closed source becomes relevant.
Having someone use open source code doesn't suddenly give anyone the right to invade the space they are privately working in on that code. And even less so yank that private, undisclosed work out to spread around as if it's something for the world to see and use. In fact (and I'm playing Devil's Advocate here a little to make a point), it may even be a research project that includes code for something proprietary that isn't intended to be published as Open Source at all, e.g. if the Open Source code used is just used as development tooling, testing, or a dev framework to be replaced with own (closed) code. Then you are venturing into the area of business secrets, patents, and what have you.
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Re: The fate of forks.

Unread post by Tharthan » 2021-09-16, 00:02

athenian200 wrote:
2021-09-15, 13:41
That is to say, for me personally at least, the vision of the community no longer matches my vision. To be blunt, much of the community I feel the project has been saddled with for now seems [...] primarily interested in counter-productive things like Windows XP support and running unmodified Firefox extensions.
athenian200 wrote:
2021-09-15, 13:41
But most of the community surrounding this particular project [...] tend to sabotage our efforts
Respectfully, athenian200, that claim seems uncharitable.

All of us are aware that the loudest, most obnoxious voices tend to be the ones that end up being noticed. But I think that a conclusion that the Pale Moon community in general thinks that things like Windows XP support are of the highest importance or believes that "open source" means "public domain free4all! w00t!" is based upon assumptions, rather than any certain reality.

For every person who posted a ragequit thread, fuming about the dropping of support for unmaintained and obsolete Firefox extensions, why would you assume that there are not a hundred and fifty others who didn't?

And although there are Fedors and Roytams out there, think about all of the people who aren't like that.

There is a danger when one has had so many angry loud voices call you and those that you work with the nastiest things in the world, that one can begin to assume that that is what most people in your community think. But that is all that that is: an assumption. Jadedness easily leads to burnout, and even a permanent cynicism. Both of those are very unhealthy for a project that has the odds stacked against it but is trying to push on nevertheless.

There are many who support the work that you and the rest of the team do to get the job done. But not all of the people who are appreciative necessarily vocalise that on a regular basis.

You know who does vocalise their feelings on a regular basis, though? An entitled user with an axe to grind who wants to stamp their feet and give you or the rest of the team an earful.
"This is a war against individuality and intelligence. Only thing we can do is stand strong."adesh, 9 January 2020

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Re: The fate of forks.

Unread post by Batman » 2021-09-16, 00:35

I would like to point out that with open source code, you CAN do whatever the heck you want as long as that doesn't include violating the license. If you don't violate the license, then you can use the code as you see fit. Some of you seem to forget to mention that. Under the MPL and pretty much all FOSS licenses even the author cannot deny that freedom UNLESS the person in question violates the license. I'm sure you already know this, you just need to make it clear when talking to people about "open source vs public domain".

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Re: The fate of forks.

Unread post by WiseWolf » 2021-09-16, 01:19

This is a sad situation, I can't support this, its not right.

Can't you just ignore those trolls?

The better person, overlooks the offense and moves on with their life.

I am disappointed to see what has happened of late...

:(

I get those "manchild productions" assholes are bad,

But this is unreal...

I begin to wonder if I made a mistake supporting this project...

Please, I want you to prove me wrong.

Just rise above those assholes,

You have to be better than this Moonchild, Tobin!

Right?

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Re: The fate of forks.

Unread post by ron_1 » 2021-09-16, 02:39

WiseWolf wrote:
2021-09-16, 01:19
This is a sad situation, I can't support this, its not right.

Can't you just ignore those trolls?
How can you ignore them when they are trampling over the open source license? And making death threats? I don't see anything wrong in their (MC and Tobin's) response. What exactly are you talking about?

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Re: The fate of forks.

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-09-16, 02:40

Ignoring them only emboldened them. If they had been dealt with at the first signs of duplicity they would never have been able to establish a foothold and following of any significance. This goes for ALL of them.

They call for my death soley because I insult someone now and again and happen to be correct almost all the time.
Of course, all these failures mount up and could easily end up costing more collectively than paying a proper rage would.
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Re: The fate of forks.

Unread post by athenian200 » 2021-09-16, 04:50

Tharthan wrote:
2021-09-16, 00:02
Respectfully, athenian200, that claim seems uncharitable.
To be fair, when I was speaking about the broader community, you weren't included. I've always considered you a friend, personally. A lot of people still active on the forum or the IRC channel would tend to fall into that category. I'm mostly talking about reddit users and others outside who have their eyes fixed on us. It seems like those who aren't explicitly our friends or otherwise personally invested these days have proven themselves to be unreliable. In general, we've been losing a lot of good people we would otherwise want to keep involved, who simply can't access their bank accounts or whatever due to things like WebComponents, while the more toxic people we don't want to serve who make irrational demands for Windows XP/unmaintained Firefox extensions seem to lurk around the web, abuse us, and misuse our work to create an abomination that may well be harmful to the Internet as a whole because they feel entitled. What I was trying to say is, it seems like somehow having the project be open at this stage keeps it attracting the people we don't want who hold us back from making needed changes. At least for now, I would rather just work closely with the few people who want to turn this project into something that has a future and hope things work out, than attempt to appease or gain the support of (what appears to be) most of the sorts of people who are still poking around and kicking the tires. I basically just want the vultures to go away from the carcass so we can work in peace without them circling around trying to convince us we need them. So we can have the time and space to build something that doesn't have the stench of decay and isn't attractive to these vultures. That doesn't mean we won't have open development again in the future, but there's not much point in opening it back up until we can turn it into something that appeals to a different class of users and programmers than the kind of entitled and ignorant people who just want to use old, insecure, unmodified software.
WiseWolf wrote:
2021-09-16, 01:19
This is a sad situation, I can't support this, its not right.
What is it you cannot support? Source code will still be provided with each release. Do you really mean to say that failing to provide a public git repo is some kind of moral wrong in your eyes?
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Re: The fate of forks.

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-09-16, 09:03

Batman wrote:
2021-09-16, 00:35
I would like to point out that with open source code, you CAN do whatever the heck you want as long as that doesn't include violating the license.
The big problem is that in their case is does include violating the license because "doing whatever you want" includes things you can't do according to the license. So no, you cannot do whatever the heck you want because that is contradictory to sticking to a license and a contradiction in terms. The only time you can do whatever the heck you want is when it's Public Domain.
I have mentioned this many times; others have too. Don't say we have not.
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Re: The fate of forks.

Unread post by Batman » 2021-09-16, 14:16

Moonchild wrote:
2021-09-16, 09:03
So no, you cannot do whatever the heck you want because that is contradictory to sticking to a license and a contradiction in terms. The only time you can do whatever the heck you want is when it's Public Domain.
I have mentioned this many times; others have too. Don't say we have not.
I was clearly saying you can do whatever you want OTHER THAN what the license forbids, (like refusing to provide source code). Don't overcomplicate this.

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Re: The fate of forks.

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-09-16, 16:16

Batman wrote:
2021-09-16, 14:16
Don't overcomplicate this.
My point was that is exactly what they do. And that is the wording they use to do it.
Arguing that "do whatever you want" is limited by conditions is by definition not "do whatever you want" so you can't say it is.
Off-topic:
By the way, you're quickly becoming extremely argumentative. Are you actually here because you're interested in Pale Moon or do you just want to go off on tangents in off-topic and do this kind of stuff otherwise to distract us?
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Re: The fate of forks.

Unread post by Batman » 2021-09-16, 18:33

Moonchild wrote:
2021-09-16, 16:16
By the way, you're quickly becoming extremely argumentative. Are you actually here because you're interested in Pale Moon or do you just want to go off on tangents in off-topic and do this kind of stuff otherwise to distract us?
I'm an active user of Pale Moon. Since you are unnecessarily combative and seem to resent everything I post, I am not sticking around this forum. You should treat your users better.

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Re: The fate of forks.

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-09-16, 18:46

That was totally unexpected.
Of course, all these failures mount up and could easily end up costing more collectively than paying a proper rage would.
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Re: The fate of forks.

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-09-16, 19:37

Called it.
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