The problem building for Linux desktop

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Moonchild
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The problem building for Linux desktop

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-06-20, 06:50

I think Linus gives a pretty good run-down of the issues here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzl1B7nB9Kc

And hey guess what? He says the exact same thing about shared libraries I've been saying for a long time. See? I'm not pulling it out of my ass. Linus agrees.
"Son, in life you do not fight battles because you expect to win, you fight them merely because they need to be fought." -- Snagglepuss
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New Tobin Paradigm
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Re: The problem building for Linux desktop

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-06-20, 10:50

Bless that man and his blanket, wait..
I'm sorry, my responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.
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tarakbumba
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Re: The problem building for Linux desktop

Unread post by tarakbumba » 2021-06-20, 22:51

Moonchild wrote:
2021-06-20, 06:50
I think Linus gives a pretty good run-down of the issues here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzl1B7nB9Kc

And hey guess what? He says the exact same thing about shared libraries I've been saying for a long time. See? I'm not pulling it out of my ass. Linus agrees.
I maintained many packages for linux distributions and I fully agree with Linus. Shared libraries and different packaging for every tiny miny GNU Linux distro are two of killing aspects of GNU Linux desktop. I'm afraid neither flatpak nor appimage would be the solution for the latter problem.

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Re: The problem building for Linux desktop

Unread post by RealityRipple » 2021-06-20, 23:22

That's why I used mono and makeself. Just a single bash script takes care of all the variances in mono and dependency packaging, and supports APT, DNF, ZYpper, urpmi, pacman, and even slackbuild.

Pretty awful when the solution to Linux is Microsoft, I know.

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Re: The problem building for Linux desktop

Unread post by RoestVrijStaal » 2021-06-20, 23:55

I find the socalled "Security issue in VLC"-debacle nearly two years ago a good example of what could go wrong when Linux disto devs manage 3rd party software on their own.

I'm still very pleased that you still provide precompiled binaries of Pale Moon in tarballs.

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Re: The problem building for Linux desktop

Unread post by Baloo » 2021-06-22, 14:37

Great video. This is from the Debian Conference in 2014.
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Re: The problem building for Linux desktop

Unread post by Pentium4User » 2021-06-22, 14:45

Baloo wrote:
2021-06-22, 14:37
Great video. This is from the Debian Conference in 2014.
And it didn't change because of the concept 'diversity'.
Only full packages like snap packages can fix that, but create new problems.
Powerline adapters (dLAN) hardly interfere shortwave radio, so stop using them.

Yes, I still use a 64 bit capable Pentium 4 670 processor with Pale Moon.

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Re: The problem building for Linux desktop

Unread post by mr tribute » 2021-06-23, 02:34

Pentium4User wrote:
2021-06-22, 14:45
And it didn't change because of the concept 'diversity'.
Who needs a package manager to run an application? Do you need Chocolatey or Windows Package Manager on Windows to run an application?
Pentium4User wrote:
2021-06-22, 14:45
Only full packages like snap packages can fix that, but create new problems.
Snap? You should try Pale Moon tarballs. And unlike Snap they don't force-feed updates to you. The updater works for you, not against you.

I think even Linus is too shy to call out the real problem (who sponsors Linux Foundation?): The lack of a sane and stable (10+ years) toolkit on Linux.

But there are more problems on the horizon like Wayland so I'm packing my bags, but not leaving just yet.

Sorry for the tone, but it's disappointing when the Man himself talks about package managers instead of addressing the toolkit problem.
This talk was 7 years ago and I still haven't heard Linus mentioning the elephant in the room to this day.
Maybe he has and Linus has done enough for a lifetime so it might not be his fight.

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Re: The problem building for Linux desktop

Unread post by Pentium4User » 2021-06-23, 04:38

Snap is one solution to run a software on different Linux distributions, but it creates new problems, I know and I don't like snap too.
I use the packages for Debian, because I like apt to only have one place to install updates.
For Basilisk I use the tarballs.

The fault is the concept, that the maintainers from the distribution decide which version they ship.

The problem of shipping the libraries with the application is, that developers need to care about the libraries too.
Powerline adapters (dLAN) hardly interfere shortwave radio, so stop using them.

Yes, I still use a 64 bit capable Pentium 4 670 processor with Pale Moon.

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Re: The problem building for Linux desktop

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-06-23, 13:41

Pentium4User wrote:
2021-06-23, 04:38
Snap is one solution to run a software on different Linux distributions, but it creates new problems
One of them being a legal one. The moment any one snap-packaged library is GPL-licensed, then the entire package has to be GPL due to the way GPL absorbes a larger work (and why I really don't like GPL) - this is why other-licensed software that isn't GPL compatible (and that includes anything MPL) will never be able to use snap without causing legal issues. This is why I explicitly exclude these kinds of bundle distributions for Pale Moon in the redist license.
Since many "system" libraries are GNU and GPL-licensed, this is a problem. This of course matters the same way for any other mutually incompatible licensing in a snap package.
"Son, in life you do not fight battles because you expect to win, you fight them merely because they need to be fought." -- Snagglepuss
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