UXP and allied Project Contributors.. Your rights are being violated along with the MPL.
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Re: UXP and allied Project Contributors.. Your rights are being violated along with the MPL.
Anyway, I am done here... but if we want to find this out definitively. I can start building Mypal with his patches... and you can sue me over it and we can see what the courts say. Let me know if you want to find out.
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- Pale Moon guru
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Re: UXP and allied Project Contributors.. Your rights are being violated along with the MPL.
Then you need to re-asses what point 5.1 actually means. And not what you think it means. It's a very, very clear statement. The moment you are non-compliant, all your rights are terminated by termination of the all-encompassing grant. That means from any contributor. The fact that a single contributor can terminate a grant to a publisher based on transgressions isn't directly relevant there. Of course it does matter for the compliance status of the software as a whole, indirectly, because it will become non-compliant after termination of an individual grant. I think that is where your confusion is.
I'd provide an example but I'm quite busy at the moment so I repeat: talk to someone who can explain this in a way you can understand. I suggest in person so they can clarify with a napkin or whatnot.
Off-topic:
Maybe "demand" was too strong a term. I probably meant "urge". Regardless there's a level of compelling that goes way beyond "suggesting"
"You should" and "talk to a lawyer before reposting it". That is not a suggestion as far as i'm concerned.
Maybe "demand" was too strong a term. I probably meant "urge". Regardless there's a level of compelling that goes way beyond "suggesting"
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
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- Pale Moon guru
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Re: UXP and allied Project Contributors.. Your rights are being violated along with the MPL.
I hope you speak Swedish.
Please do talk to a lawyer before you get too deep into it. It'll save everyone a lot of headaches.
P.S. Send me your full name and address in a PM so I can prepare a proper C&D without having to dig.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
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Re: UXP and allied Project Contributors.. Your rights are being violated along with the MPL.
Well if it actually means what YOU think it means, then it is a terrifying situation for us all. Because one of your team could easily get all of those projects I listed earlier as well as dozens of others downstream, including mine terminated by non-compliance very easily. Since I make use of this code myself that is a terrifying thought, but I can't believe that is what the people at Mozilla were actually thinking when they created this license. Nor do I believe that is how the court would see it either. But even if all that is true (which I don't believe but hypothetically), fair use could still be used to circumvent the MPL license itself, since as I said earlier... the license is not the only source for rights in this scenario.Moonchild wrote: ↑2021-09-06, 12:51Then you need to re-asses what point 5.1 actually means. And not what you think it means. It's a very, very clear statement. The moment you are non-compliant, all your rights are terminated by termination of the all-encompassing grant. That means from any contributor. The fact that a single contributor can terminate a grant to a publisher based on transgressions isn't directly relevant there. Of course it does matter for the compliance status of the software as a whole, indirectly, because it will become non-compliant after termination of an individual grant. I think that is where your confusion is.
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Re: UXP and allied Project Contributors.. Your rights are being violated along with the MPL.
I speak some Danish which is similar, but shouldn't be necessary in a US court.
Well if you want to try it out in court I'll be happy to.
Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the MPL 2.0 a bit more.Any litigation relating to this License may be brought only in the courts of a jurisdiction where the defendant maintains its principal place of business and such litigation shall be governed by laws of that jurisdiction, without reference to its conflict-of-law provisions.
Re: UXP and allied Project Contributors.. Your rights are being violated along with the MPL.
That would be pretty cool if he came to the US to do that. Since Chicago is only 4 hours from here we could meet up and I could attend.
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- Pale Moon guru
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Re: UXP and allied Project Contributors.. Your rights are being violated along with the MPL.
Nah, I'm familiar with it.
I'm just upset. I shouldn't make posts when I'm upset as I'll not put enough thought into it. Regardless, if you want to play hardball, I'll oblige. I'd prefer not to, though.
Bottom line is it matters if you had a pre-existing fork of mypal or not. and apparently you didn't, in which case you'd be wrong to make a copy of a non-compliant source and expecting it to be legitimate. Please do sort that out.
Also I though you said you were done? Why are you still here?
I'm just upset. I shouldn't make posts when I'm upset as I'll not put enough thought into it. Regardless, if you want to play hardball, I'll oblige. I'd prefer not to, though.
Bottom line is it matters if you had a pre-existing fork of mypal or not. and apparently you didn't, in which case you'd be wrong to make a copy of a non-compliant source and expecting it to be legitimate. Please do sort that out.
Also I though you said you were done? Why are you still here?
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
Re: UXP and allied Project Contributors.. Your rights are being violated along with the MPL.
He thinks he can operate on the same level as me.. Cause I am never done. Attention wavers, priorities shift, but in the end I always come after those in the wrong.
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Re: UXP and allied Project Contributors.. Your rights are being violated along with the MPL.
Well done arguing circularly about the license, since we clearly are not going to agree on it without lawyers or courts weighing in.
But seriously, if you want to put it to the test, I'll talk to a lawyer and get the ball rolling. If the lawyer tells me I shouldn't do it, I'll post here of that fact.
Last edited by dbsoft on 2021-09-06, 13:29, edited 1 time in total.
Re: UXP and allied Project Contributors.. Your rights are being violated along with the MPL.
Only because your opinion is twisted, your intentions are evil, AND your mind is full of communist promises of supreme domination.
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- Pale Moon guru
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Re: UXP and allied Project Contributors.. Your rights are being violated along with the MPL.
I wouldn't call it circular arguing if one side simply refuses to accept what is black and white stated in the license. It's more like trying to rewind and making the same argument again and again and expecting somehow a different result.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
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Re: UXP and allied Project Contributors.. Your rights are being violated along with the MPL.
Well I can relate, since that is how I feel as well.
Re: UXP and allied Project Contributors.. Your rights are being violated along with the MPL.
Then stop doing it, nuke.
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Re: UXP and allied Project Contributors.. Your rights are being violated along with the MPL.
If you genuinely think that that would ever be the conclusion of a court of law, you are kidding yourself. A court is not going to say that line after line after line after line after line after line after line (etc.) of code is all fair use. When pigs fly!
The fair use concept just isn't applied like that.
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Re: UXP and allied Project Contributors.. Your rights are being violated along with the MPL.
I just said it *could* be not that it is likely it would be. It all depends on the judge, the jurisdiction, the extenuating circumstances.Tharthan wrote: ↑2021-09-06, 15:45If you genuinely think that that would ever be the conclusion of a court of law, you are kidding yourself. A court is not going to say that line after line after line after line after line after line after line (etc.) of code is all fair use. When pigs fly!
The fair use concept just isn't applied like that.
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Re: UXP and allied Project Contributors.. Your rights are being violated along with the MPL.
If it's unlikely (and honestly to me it's as unlikely as a snowball's chance in hell), why even bring it up? Well aside from the fact you wanted to use it as an argument to somehow strengthen your position, of course... Too bad it got shot down, eh?
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
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Re: UXP and allied Project Contributors.. Your rights are being violated along with the MPL.
It was to show that there are additional rights granted under Fair Use beyond what is explicit in the license, and giving an example of the most extreme case. It didn't get shot down at all and I think that the chances are better than a snowball's chance in hell. The more of a copyrighted work you claim under Fair Use the less likely it is to be deemed Fair Use, so that is clearly the least likely to happen, but considering the circumstances (of there being few browsers supporting XP and Pale Moon having dropped support they are not competing in the same space) I'd say it is a definite possibility.
Re: UXP and allied Project Contributors.. Your rights are being violated along with the MPL.
Except they don't restrict it to JUST XP and Vista.. It runs, albeit not very well, on 7 and up. Not to mention the shitty scummy greasy way they try and steal everything not even covered under the MPL.
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- Pale Moon guru
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Re: UXP and allied Project Contributors.. Your rights are being violated along with the MPL.
Whether the browser is competitive in the same space or not isn't even relevant here.
(just add that to the growing list of irrelevant tangents that are designed to detract from the core issue of non-compliance)
"Fair Use" in that context is an impossibly huge stretch, especially since there are plenty of other XP-capable browsers out there, AND nothing is stopping anyone from creating their own independent fork that will work on XP. Claiming it MUST be Mypal is laughable. We're not talking about an extremely scarce commodity here.
(just add that to the growing list of irrelevant tangents that are designed to detract from the core issue of non-compliance)
"Fair Use" in that context is an impossibly huge stretch, especially since there are plenty of other XP-capable browsers out there, AND nothing is stopping anyone from creating their own independent fork that will work on XP. Claiming it MUST be Mypal is laughable. We're not talking about an extremely scarce commodity here.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
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Re: UXP and allied Project Contributors.. Your rights are being violated along with the MPL.
Yes "Fair Use" would likely not to fly here, but just to be pedantic, "Whether the browser is competitive" is literally one of the measuring factors of the "Fair Use":Moonchild wrote: ↑2021-09-06, 22:58Whether the browser is competitive in the same space or not isn't even relevant here.
(just add that to the growing list of irrelevant tangents that are designed to detract from the core issue of non-compliance)
"Fair Use" in that context is an impossibly huge stretch, plenty of other XP-capable browsers out there
- the effect of the use upon the potential market. whether your use deprives the copyright owner of income or undermines a new or potential market for the copyrighted work.
From a cursory search the only semi-updated and with best web support as of right now are like 4 forks of Pale Moon for XP.
Yes, nobody stops you from creating a fork, unfortunately to be 100% complaint you must now clean room code just in case you would duplicate something from Mypal. (yes i am being ridiculous here, but that is the price if you dont want to ever hit any bump, i hope not you are already looking for copies of the code in the other forks)