Basilisk and the future of extensions

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Couperin
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Basilisk and the future of extensions

Unread post by Couperin » 2021-12-24, 00:44

Two observations:

1. I have been surprised to find that Basilisk has been more compatible and more useful to me than Palemoon and it has become my primary browser. Perhaps this is because I am not grimly trying to hang on to ancient extensions for dear life. I have easily found replacements for everything where this could be possible.

2. This brings us to the second observation. There is complete denial here of extensions that cannot be ported or for which no one can write one: those that REQUIRE companies and the Net in general to either recognize PM/Basilisk exist or which you allow compatibility with such 3rd party extensions (somehow). The best example is passwords. I have never used the password facilities or resources of ANY browser. While independent or open source based options all may stumble, in fact, they will all provide better security or they will cease to exist. 'Sorta solutions' that don't really integrate with the browser are lame half answers and no, I'm not going to be maintaining my own server either. Basilisk let's me still run Lastpass and also makes sync of my passwords between all my browsers absolutely automatic. Eversource/Everhelper pretty much allows the same thing with my Bookmarks (I just have to use Basilisk as my 'lead' browser and always sync to anything else by always overwriting to their server (NEVER combine) and then overwriting all other browsers by overwriting FROM the server. Anything else results in numerous duplications. This will never change, as I remarked 15 years ago the mountain ain't ever coming to Mohammad and the Internet doesn't much give a damn what everyone would like it to be. Either this tool works or it's becoming a tool for something that only exists in the imagination of it's tiny user base. Running a browser that is completely losing the ability to use needed functionality is irrelevant and for many a browser that has zero options for a good third party password manager makes about as much sense as a car that has no electric starter. Please.

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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-12-24, 01:29

Couperin wrote:
2021-12-24, 00:44
Two observations:
Two observations which are in direct conflict with each other. In 1. you bash the use of ancient extensions, but in 2. you call those same extensions absolutely essential to your use. So which is it?

Also, the password manager inside either browser in question here is perfectly capable of securely storing everything (provided you use a master password) without having to trust any cloud provider.

But the main point is, actually... what does your post have to do with the topic of this thread? I don't see the relevance.
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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by Couperin » 2021-12-24, 01:58

1. Again you fail to distinguish between extensions which can be duplicated or written by individuals and extensions which are proprietary and can never be duplicated...you absolutely refuse to acknowledge there is a difference. That actually proves my point. Also I don't "bash" anything, there is virtually no open source of individually written or non-commercial extension which has not been duplicated, usually more than once.

2 In this case you simply deny there is any need for this sort of software at all and you believe any organization no matter how small and underfunded is going to be just as reliable and trustworthy as organizations worth millions with global resources. Now you're simply denying all reality... but that it seems your default view of the Internet. This guarantees oblivion...absolutely when you're gone, but at this rate much, much sooner.

Misinterpreting my observations into false binary choices just allows you to avoid confronting the issues....

Moses, you might take a glance back and notice how precious few members are left of your tribe following...maybe it's because no one else believes your promised land exists anywhere outside your imagination. Silly me to think you might try some things that give the average user any easy way to just get a tool that works at all common sites...

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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by moonbat » 2021-12-24, 02:32

Couperin wrote:
2021-12-24, 00:44
There is complete denial here of extensions that cannot be ported or for which no one can write one: those that REQUIRE companies and the Net in general to either recognize PM/Basilisk exist or which you allow compatibility with such 3rd party extensions (somehow).
It's called obeying licensing.Pale Moon devs don't have the right to legally publish non open source licensed extensions for distribution via the addon site; whether they're made by a company or an individual is irrelevant. And licensing aside, given how frequently websites change for the sake of change to accomodate the latest draft shiny in Chrome, it is a fool's errand for anyone other than the site owner to keep up with these changes and modify an extension accordingly, assuming again there's no violation of their TOS by using the service they provide in a non standard way.
Couperin wrote:
2021-12-24, 00:44
Running a browser that is completely losing the ability to use needed functionality is irrelevant and for many a browser that has zero options for a good third party password manager makes about as much sense as a car that has no electric starter.
More like a car not being able to install after market accessories is somehow not the fault of the accessory maker that refuses to support it.

Nobody forced you to use this browser and you have it confused with the rest that are constantly chasing and wooing users to generate revenue. This has always been a niche project that started as a hobby, and for people with very specific preferences that mainstream browsers today don't cater to.
Couperin wrote:
2021-12-24, 01:58
any organization no matter how small and underfunded is going to be just as reliable and trustworthy as organizations worth millions with global resources.
Oh yes, GoogleZilla have shown just how reliable and trustworthy they are with respecting privacy, let alone the users themselves, right?
Like I said - nobody held a gun to your head to make you use this browser, nor are you paying for using it. If you're so desperate for a third party password manager, put up a bounty and see if anyone will bite.
Couperin wrote:
2021-12-24, 01:58
Silly me to think you might try some things that give the average user any easy way to just get a tool that works at all common sites...
Yes, extremely silly of you to assume the average user was ever the target audience for this browser when their browsing habits and preferences are better served by the herd of Chrome wannabes.
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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by Mæstro » 2021-12-24, 02:42

Couperin wrote:
2021-12-24, 01:58
1. Again you fail to distinguish between extensions which can be duplicated or written by individuals and extensions which are proprietary and can never be duplicated...you absolutely refuse to acknowledge there is a difference. That actually proves my point.
The original post states that Pale Moon will expand support for XUL-based Firefox extensions, including proprietary ones, by making Pale Moon accept Firefox’s GUID beside its own in the way that Basilisk already does. If a proprietary, XUL-based extension’s custodian refuses to manage it any longer and it fails to work, whether due to mundane shifts in Pale Moon’s codebase or the custodian shutting down the server, API or what not that powers it, this is not Moonchild’s or Pale Moon’s fault. Moonchild had originally wanted to foster a community that would maintain its own, open extensions for XUL. This has proven inviable, so he is changing course as just described.
Also I don't "bash" anything, there is virtually no open source of individually written or non-commercial extension which has not been duplicated, usually more than once.
This outstanding list of compatible extensions yet to be forked suggests otherwise. Stop baiting Moonchild.
In this case you simply deny there is any need for this sort of software at all and you believe any organization no matter how small and underfunded is going to be just as reliable and trustworthy as organizations worth millions with global resources. Now you're simply denying all reality... but that it seems your default view of the Internet.
…What does this even mean?
Moses, you might take a glance back and notice how precious few members are left of your tribe following...maybe it's because no one else believes your promised land exists anywhere outside your imagination. Silly me to think you might try some things that give the average user any easy way to just get a tool that works at all common sites...
The original survey’s purpose was to count how many members of each tribe there was. Moonchild has accounted for this, has admitted his vision is not universally shared and is adjusting course to match. He is making changes that will make things easier for me, the average user who cannot write a FOR loop out of a paper bag. He is reversing old policies to make unmaintained extensions more workable, and devoting his time instead to improving Web compatibility. It is not Moonchild’s fault we must run so much to keep our place when Google changes ‘standards’ every other week.
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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by Couperin » 2021-12-24, 03:56

It's clearly hopeless

@ Moonbat:

1. Please go on with your lecture on licensing to someone who has an Ivy league law degree and been practicing for 30 years, it's fun watching you make a complete fool of yourself.
2. The classic deflection here: NO one every said anyone is being forced to use anything, but you think it's more polite than what you really mean: fuck off if you're not a cult member. (Well except Tobin who heaps abuse and profanity on virtually anyone as 'support') We are all invited to leave, but hardly necessary anymore as no one is arriving and more and more give up everyday hence the need to do something now while there is still anyone who cares. Then you add a classic straw man Googlzilla 'example' that 1 or 2 individuals will be more 'trustworthy and reliable' than any large organization...or so you pathetic logic goes.
3.Finally reduced to defending the accelerating irrelevancy as a 'niche' audience, not for the 'herd', your target audience is I guess 'special people' who don't want to have access to increasing amounts of the mainstrean Net every day, you know...a cult.

@ The Real

1. If I believed that PM can and will be as accepting as Basilisk (which it now appears is imminently dead) but even with that, without compatibility somehow with some current browser the world notices, the decline is just slowed.
2. What does this even mean ? It's clear simple non-jargon English. I'm not responsible for your incomprehension. If you think a small pvt server funded and maintained by a few can be just as relied upon as a company with millions and global servers, then by that logic we should stop funding armed forces anymore, our security will just as be secured by a few guns in your home. sigh.
3. rotf..."...not universally shared..." is one way to describe, I guess, charting a course for future growth by doing exactly what the, literally, few thousand users left who give a shit want you to do. That is, literally, the definition of a cult. Wander off deeper into the desert, no one will notice...

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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by Mæstro » 2021-12-24, 04:48

Couperin wrote:
2021-12-24, 03:56
1. If I believed that PM can and will be as accepting as Basilisk (which it now appears is imminently dead) but even with that, without compatibility somehow with some current browser the world notices, the decline is just slowed.
Basilisk will (likely) be retired because it has outlived its purpose: to test UXL features. It was always ‘developmental software’. (source) Some Basilisk features, such as support for XUL Firefox-targeted extensions, will reintegrate into Pale Moon in the coming months. Much of Pale Moon’s developmental focus in the coming months, as said in the original post, will be to improve general Web compatibility. If you want a browser that resembles Basilisk’s user interface and functionality, I would commend Waterfox Classic instead to you as better aligned to your needs.
If you think a small pvt server funded and maintained by a few can be just as relied upon as a company with millions and global servers, then by that logic we should stop funding armed forces anymore, our security will just as be secured by a few guns in your home. sigh.
Off-topic:
I am an absolute pacifist, so…
As long as Pale Moon can support its actual server costs and load with its financial and technical resources, it is reliable. A small project can work at a small scale and do as well as a large project at a large scale.
"...not universally shared..." is one way to describe, I guess, charting a course for future growth by doing exactly what the, literally, few thousand users left who give a [expletive removed] want you to do. That is, literally, the definition of a cult. Wander off deeper into the desert, no one will notice...
The stated plan is a compromise balancing different users’ wishes. It is one I and many others find agreeable or at least tolerable. A cult has a despotic leader. Deliberating plans in consult with the active community is not tyrannical.
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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by Couperin » 2021-12-24, 06:23

Waterfox Classic was in doubt of continuing til a few weeks ago, now Kontos will be allowed to with no idea of the resources or staff allowed. Current reports are not particularly stable. Basilisk is rock stable: it never crashes on me, it does hang when it's too strict on all sorts of coding these days other just ignore. The access to old extensions I have replacements for and proprietary extensions I can just use FF for so it appears no benefit over Kontos' tinkering with FF 56 code.

Basilisk/PM offers superior customization. This is what my Basilisk looks like:
Basilisk header.JPG
Basilisk footer.JPG
and this is the best I can do with FF:
FF header.JPG
That includes a top bar that gives me a top bar so useless/stupid you can't even grab/move using it, tabs which can never be directly above the content which is logical to me, no ability to detect and simply switch to tab on hover and a ton of small niggling issues about text size, colors and stuff unless I learn to code more than I want to learn. Beside the future is about compatibility with something the rest of the Net does re: proprietary support.

The entire human history is that all pacifists are victims unless someone else is willing to die to protect them. Refusal to accept that is pure denial of reality or a willingness to be a victim, which I fail to see as anything but delusional moral superiority and if you're willing to watch your family slaughtered passively...they deserve better than you...

"As long as Pale Moon can support its actual server costs and load with its financial and technical resources, it is reliable. A small project can work at a small scale and do as well as a large project at a large scale." Same logic: As long as a 100 ft motorboat can get fuel it can be as reliable for shipping goods from Duluth to Chicago as a 500 ft commercial cargo ship. You are begging every issue in that statement...it's bullshit. Again reality is not allowed to intrude.

The only way to a real future is to inquire of those who would ever begin to consider PM are those who won't. Many years ago I worked at restoring and conserving the heritage of a much older much larger cult, that is now a memory. They once had over 50 large settlements across America and hundreds of thousands of followers. Of course they made growth and survival, not to mention practical attractiveness, an order of magnitude more difficult than anything you're doing: celibacy is a REALLY tough sell: The Shakers. I worked with them when the last male Shaker was still alive and when 2 communities still held on at Canterbury NH and Sabbath Lake, ME. They survived for a long time by taking in orphans and their indoctrination was gentle, but still not really fair. Today they have left a heritage of architecture and furniture design that was 200 years ahead of their time and uncompromising integrity in everything they created. They also created the original national enterprise of quality heirloom seeds sold in America. They were the opposite of you, they perceived realty quite accurately, sadly you can't or won't.

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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by Attronarch » 2021-12-24, 08:33

Couperin wrote:
2021-12-24, 03:56
1. Please go on with your lecture on licensing to someone who has an Ivy league law degree and been practicing for 30 years, it's fun watching you make a complete fool of yourself.
Great, then you have enough disposable income to fund development of an extension that would work with KeePassXC or similar solution. (I can recommend RealityRipple, a capable developer on this forum.) You could also sponsor whomever will take over development of Basilisk.

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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by gepus » 2021-12-24, 08:46

@Couperin

This thread is not about Basilisk.
You have been already told the reason why Basilisk was discontinued.

Please stop cluttering this thread with off-topic comments. They are neither helpful nor funny.

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Re: Basilisk and the future of extensions

Unread post by Admin » 2021-12-24, 09:01

Posts have been split off to keep things properly on-topic.
Did you know that moral outrage triggers the pleasure centers of the brain? It's unlikely you can actually get addicted to outrage, but there is plausible evidence that you can become strongly predisposed to it.
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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by moonbat » 2021-12-24, 09:28

Couperin wrote:
2021-12-24, 03:56
Ivy league law degree and been practicing for 30 years,
Please use your law degree certificate as a toilet paper substitute for all the use it has done for you when I pointed out that you cannot violate a proprietary software license that forbids distribution by going ahead and doing just that, also informally known as 'piracy'. Then again, going by the rest of the garbage you've spouted I have to wonder under what special affirmative action category for drooling imbeciles you were granted admission there.
Couperin wrote:
2021-12-24, 03:56
fuck off if you're not a cult member.
No, in your case, just plain old fuck off already with your inflated sense of entitlement and hilarious delusions of superiority.
Couperin wrote:
2021-12-24, 03:56
Then you add a classic straw man Googlzilla 'example' that 1 or 2 individuals will be more 'trustworthy and reliable' than any large organization.
No, you Ivy league fucking Einstein, in the context of browser development which I'm having to mention here because turning into a lawyer seems to have killed every last brain cell you possess, given the comparisons you're making. There is this project run by a handful of devs versus Google, Mozilla and their derivatives and if you consider them more trustworthy then why the fuck are you even here in the first place?
Couperin wrote:
2021-12-24, 03:56
If you think a small pvt server funded and maintained by a few can be just as relied upon as a company with millions and global servers, then by that logic we should stop funding armed forces anymore
It's not as though Google is making it harder for adblocking extensions to work with manifest v3, or Mozilla sneaking in advertising, analytics, tracking and unwanted 3rd party integration into their sainted privacy respecting browser but you have anyway demonstrated your utter ignorance let alone ability to comprehend any of these issues raised by the 'millions of global servers' having alternatives, together with your shitty analogies.
Couperin wrote:
2021-12-24, 06:23
As long as a 100 ft motorboat can get fuel it can be as reliable for shipping goods from Duluth to Chicago as a 500 ft commercial cargo ship.
.
LIke I said, why don't you take a long jump off a short pier already onto your cargo ship?
Couperin wrote:
2021-12-24, 06:23
Again reality is not allowed to intrude.
And your solution is what? Shut down the rest of the project and keep Basilisk in eternal stasis for your KeePass using Lordship?
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Re: Basilisk and the future of extensions

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-12-24, 09:37

Couperin wrote:
2021-12-24, 01:58
you believe any organization no matter how small and underfunded is going to be just as reliable and trustworthy as organizations worth millions with global resources
Any organisation, no matter how large or small, is exactly as reliable and trustworthy as its leadership is. And in that context, large organisations have almost without fail shown to be untrustworthy (I leave it up to you to muse about the reasons for that). You also cannot go on and compare companies dealing with particular physical obstacles that require specific infrastructure or equipment to an organisation that does not have those obstacles to deal with.

If you have a strict need for large company infrastructure/support/redundancy in operation then what are you doing relying on Basilisk? :think: :coffee:
Couperin wrote:
2021-12-24, 03:56
Please go on with your lecture on licensing to someone who has an Ivy league law degree and been practicing for 30 years, it's fun watching you make a complete fool of yourself.
As a lawyer, unless you specifically studied software licensing, you cannot claim to be as well-versed in it as someone who deals with it every day -- and being "a lawyer" is not some godly elevated status that nobody without a degree could ever achieve; you achieved it by study, and practical, everyday exposure is also study. In fact your refusal to accept even the basic premise behind software licensing shows that you have no practical knowledge of it whatsoever. Even in that case it should be simple to understand for you: Proprietary software cannot be treated as Open Source and only the rights holders are allowed to publish modified versions of such proprietary software. And that is all that is at the basis of this point.
Couperin wrote:
2021-12-24, 01:58
you absolutely refuse to acknowledge there is a difference
For a self-proclaimed lawyer you are reading a hell of a lot I didn't say between the lines ;)

If you've been around for a while (and you have... registered on this forum in 2014) then you know that regardless of the licensing of extensions, those extensions are the ones that extend the browser, not the other way around. Your coveted password manager extensions will need to be maintained like any other extension, proprietary or not. That has nothing to do with Basilisk itself, or the size of the organisation, or the extension being a service extension or not, HOWEVER, if licensing prohibits forking or it is a service extension that relies on proprietary (and often protected) web services for those few extensions that are published by corporations in that manner, then the only ones who can perform such maintenance are the companies in question. If those companies refuse to acknowledge or support Basilisk, then that is not the fault of anyone here. It's as simple and straight-forward as that.
TheRealMaestro wrote:
2021-12-24, 02:42
The original post states that Pale Moon will expand support for XUL-based Firefox extensions, including proprietary ones, by making Pale Moon accept Firefox’s GUID beside its own in the way that Basilisk already does. {...}
I'm very happy to see at least someone understands the mechanics of this change.
Couperin wrote:
2021-12-24, 01:58
Moses
(and other religious/cult references)
Totally irrelevant to FOSS development or Basilisk or the overarching project. It doesn't even underline a point.
Couperin wrote:
2021-12-24, 06:23
The only way to a real future is to inquire of those who would ever begin to consider PM are those who won't.
What does that even mean?
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Re: Basilisk and the future of extensions

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-12-24, 09:39

moonbat wrote:
2021-12-24, 09:28
And your solution is what? Shut down the rest of the project and keep Basilisk in eternal stasis for your KeePass using Lordship?
They could just keep using the latest published version of Basilisk forever in that case.
Or maybe pay someone to maintain Basilisk for them.
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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by Mæstro » 2021-12-24, 16:09

Couperin wrote:
2021-12-24, 06:23
Waterfox Classic was in doubt of continuing til a few weeks ago, now Kontos will be allowed to with no idea of the resources or staff allowed. Current reports are not particularly stable. Basilisk is rock stable: it never crashes on me, it does hang when it's too strict on all sorts of coding these days other just ignore. The access to old extensions I have replacements for and proprietary extensions I can just use FF for so it appears no benefit over Kontos' tinkering with FF 56 code.
If Waterfox Classic does not suit, there is also SeaMonkey. One can adjust its interface to taste, and it supports both proprietary XUL-based extensions and their WebExtensions successors. It also supports Rust and other dubious features some sites use, but Pale Moon rejects. SeaMonkey’s staff and resources are publicly known, and its age (older than Firefox!) attests to its stability.
Basilisk/PM offers superior customization. This is what my Basilisk looks like…and this is the best I can do with FF…unless I learn to code more than I want to learn.
Yes? UXP stress letting the user decide for himself how to arrange things without any programming knowledge, and this is much of their appeal to me and many others.
Beside the future is about compatibility with something the rest of the Net does re: proprietary support.
We must tell website and extension support apart. Pale Moon’s new direction prioritises improving support for Web scripts, including sites’ proprietary JavaScript. Your wish here is being met. As far as I know, no proprietary, XUL-based extension is still under official support. Their developers have all chosen only to write WebExtensions versions, which the UXP rejects. Working on proprietary, XUL-based extensions ourselves notwithstanding the licencing concerns would endanger the UXP as a whole at your professional colleagues’ hands. As noted above, SeaMonkey might be better suited for your needs.
Same logic: As long as a 100 ft motorboat can get fuel it can be as reliable for shipping goods from Duluth to Chicago as a 500 ft commercial cargo ship. You are begging every issue in that statement...it's [expletive removed]. Again reality is not allowed to intrude.
If we have few goods to ship, the smaller craft is more efficient. See below.
The only way to a real future is to inquire of those who would ever begin to consider PM are those who won't.…
This sentence is hard to parse. I must guess it means that you believe Pale Moon must seek more users. We are not interested in popularity for its own sake. Pale Moon will never have mass appeal unless general social trends change in unforeseen ways. We do not pretend we will. We believe Pale Moon’s future is small but stable. There are other fates than growth or death. Nobody forces you to believe in our vision; there are other browsers better aligned with your beliefs. This is for ourselves, not you.

(Edited: thanks to @Michaell for pointing out how bad I am at remembering names!)
Last edited by Mæstro on 2021-12-24, 16:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Basilisk and the future of extensions

Unread post by Michaell » 2021-12-24, 16:34

Project is UXP not UXL.
Off-topic:
SeaMonkey is more stable than WF Classic. But its age is not the best reason for that. The stability right now depends on the ability of one programmer. The thing with SM for me is the extension compatibility has never been as good. I really appreciated the LemonJuice converter.

WF Classic has been more stable for me this last time I installed it and only used XUL extensions (and no Classic Theme Restorer although I miss it). And that way I can mostly use the same extensions as Basilisk.
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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by somdcomputerguy » 2021-12-25, 00:20

Couperin wrote:
2021-12-24, 06:23

Basilisk/PM offers superior customization.

and this is the best I can do with FF:

That includes a top bar that gives me a top bar so useless/stupid you can't even grab/move using it, tabs which can never be directly above the content which is logical to me, no ability to detect and simply switch to tab on hover and a ton of small niggling issues about text size, colors and stuff unless I learn to code more than I want to learn.
Basilisk and the future of extensions - Pale Moon .jpg
Well I would have to agree with you about the "superior customization" statement. This is how my Pale Moon 'header' looks. The title of the active tab (which in this case is the same as the filename (not including the jpg extension of course) of the attachment) doesn't appear because the window was not active. Now if the Pale Moon window is not minimized or maximized, but is in it's restored or resizable 'mode', I can do a drag/move operation using the title or 'top' bar just fine. Tabs are above the content, maybe the theme you're using in Firefox causes the display issues you have. I use the Tab Mix Plus add-on that gives me much control over how the tabs look and operate. Such as I can hover over a tab for a (user-configurable) amount of time and then that tab gains focus or is selected, I use it also to customize the 'size of the tabs'. I use two other add-ons to customize text size, colors and stuff. In total, I use about a dozen add-ons (and not built in browser code) to suit me and my use of Pale Moon. I know 3 or 4 programming languages (not including HTML, CSS, JS, and PHP) but I am not really much at all an active coder anymore. Knowing or using any of that did nothing (or might do) to help me configure this browser the way that I want, but browsing and reading thru the the add-on section of the site did..
:cool: -bruce /* somdcomputerguy.com */
'If you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change.'

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