Basilisk and Windows Vista

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dr_st
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Basilisk and Windows Vista

Postby dr_st » Sun, 04 Feb 2018, 17:48

Yes, I know very few people use Vista, but the question is - what is the technical limitation, if any, that prevents Basilisk from working on it?

Vista's kernel is very close to Win7, but some user-level APIs are missing; the question is - does Basilisk actually use any of them? Is it a matter of being able to test it to guarantee compatibility?

Pale Moon's official builds still support Vista, even though it's probably not tested on it, because - why not? I wonder what prevents Basilisk from being the same?

P.S. I've read of some unofficial Basilisk builds that manage to support Vista and even XP, but I would of course much rather to see an official solution by the team.

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Re: Basilisk and Windows Vista

Postby New Tobin Paradigm » Sun, 04 Feb 2018, 18:02

The main issue for Vista from us beyond DirectX which as an accelerated application is a key factor is the 3rd party libs dropping Vista support. As you pointed out kernel is also a factor.

If it was just kernel and DX, Vista might not be that big of a problem but it is still a problem and libs just seal it. There are just too many special cases and kinks to keep supporting unsupported operating systems especially ones that were not widely supported in the first place.

There is and remains a huge difference between running and running well. There is also more on the table when it comes to supporting multiple generations of the same platform.

At most we can fully target Windows 7 and try our very best to support whatever latest travisty state Windows 10 is in. Windows Vista is unsupported and has too many special cases and increasingly lacking support from 3rd party code. Windows 8/8.1 can fairly easily covered by Windows 7 and Windows 10's various aspects and cases but most of those are visual (themeing) or bits like shell integration not so much when it comes binary code.

Windows XP is a whole different story. At this point beyond basic win32 api it is almost to the point of being a different operating system platform. One missing half the things we today need to have and would reqire so many different and more primitive ways of doing things to do it properly and do it well. Given this is still an operating system of late 2001 and unsupported by everyone it is now just out of scope for any kind of support for us on a code level.

Of course some would conclude that the same eventual fate would befall Windows 7 and you may be right and it is a matter of consern but it is a somewhat different situaltion as what is happening with windows now is unlike anything before. Microsoft Windows is progressing away from the Windows platform its self and what we eventually call Windows one day in the future will almost have no commonality with what we call windows today and indeed very likely won't even be capable of running software like Pale Moon.. Or anything else for that matter.

So instead of there being different ways between generations one COULD accomplish the same things but just can't be justified in a cost/benefits situation.. One day there may just be a point where all the special cases in the world and strange hacks won't matter because the windows platform simply won't be there in any shape and form useable by binary code. Not unless the majority of the world shifts gears and changes direction from that cliff we have been heading towards since about 2007.
Last edited by New Tobin Paradigm on Sun, 04 Feb 2018, 18:41, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Basilisk and Windows Vista

Postby Moonchild » Sun, 04 Feb 2018, 19:27

Another additional point apart from what Tobin mentioned is the simple fact that there is no actual lifetime overlap between Vista and a new product released in 2017/2018.
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Re: Basilisk and Windows Vista

Postby Marcus » Sun, 04 Feb 2018, 20:54

New Tobin Paradigm wrote: Microsoft Windows is progressing away from the Windows platform its self and what we eventually call Windows one day in the future will almost have no commonality with what we call windows today and indeed very likely won't even be capable of running software like Pale Moon.. Or anything else for that matter.
---
Not unless the majority of the world shifts gears and changes direction from that cliff we have been heading towards since about 2007.


Could you evolve a bit on that, you sound Biblical :?

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Re: Basilisk and Windows Vista

Postby helloimustbegoing » Sun, 04 Feb 2018, 20:57

Off-topic:
Marcus wrote:
Could you evolve a bit on that, you sound Biblical :?

And just what's wrong with that?
Last edited by helloimustbegoing on Sun, 04 Feb 2018, 20:57, edited 1 time in total.

dr_st
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Re: Basilisk and Windows Vista

Postby dr_st » Mon, 05 Feb 2018, 09:03

New Tobin Paradigm wrote:The main issue for Vista from us beyond DirectX which as an accelerated application is a key factor is the 3rd party libs dropping Vista support. As you pointed out kernel is also a factor.
DirectX is not an issue if you support Win7, since the same DirectX (11) version runs on both. I doubt you actually need DirectX 11.1 or higher (which would take you to Win8+ area.

I haven't actually witnessed cases where kernel differences between Vista and Win7 were meaningful to applications (although such cases may exist).

Regarding 3rd party libs (and even Microsoft's libs), yes - this can be a problem with Vista vs 7, since a lot of developers were eager to drop Vista support (if only to avoid testing on it). The question is - is it a real problem, or just some simple compile flag. I guess I will have to check out the source of Basilisk and build it myself to see.

Note that I am specifically talking about Vista and not XP, because the latter really is different, and I am aware of that.

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Re: Basilisk and Windows Vista

Postby New Tobin Paradigm » Mon, 05 Feb 2018, 12:04

If it wasn't a real problem we would not be dealing with it. Trust.
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