Visual Studio 2026

[UCyborg]

Just curious, has anyone attempted to compile Pale Moon with it rather than using 2022 version and whether they encountered any issues?

[RealityRipple]

Posting with a custom build using VS2026 and MSVC 14.50 right now. I think the VC version prevents it from running on Win7, but there haven't been any issues on 10/22H2.

[UCyborg]

Oh, I see: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/releases/2026/release-notes

The MSVC Build Tools now require Windows 10 or Windows Server 2016 as the minimum supported operating systems.

The MSVC Build Tools have updated their minimum supported operating systems. With this release, the Build Tools no longer support targeting:

Windows 7 / Windows Server 2008 R2
Windows 8 / Windows Server 2012
Windows 8.1 / Windows Server 2012 R2
To build applications using the latest C++ tools, your target platform must be Windows 10 or Windows Server 2016 (or later).

These changes allow for better performance, enhanced security, and alignment with the most recent Windows platform capabilities.

I haven't checked, but maybe they still let you install previous build tools.

Still, these news might be of concern to some of the people here.

[FranklinDM]

Just curious, has anyone attempted to compile Pale Moon with it rather than using 2022 version and whether they encountered any issues?

I've always used the latest VS (2025, recently now 2026) and MSVC in my personal builds, haven't noticed any issues so far.

[jobbautista9]

I'm still stuck in 2022 with version 17.9.6... Apparently its compiler is even older (19.39.33523) than what our official mainline build uses lol

[Moonchild]

Installing older build tools is usually limited to toolchains within the major release (which is what we already have to do for 32-bit Windows builds because of the elusive stability problems targetting x86 past a certain version). I'm pretty sure we indeed leave some performance on the table but that is the compromise needed for compatibility.

I'd love to move to VS 2026 but we just can't unless we drop Win 7 and 32-bit entirely, which I don't really want to do at this point.

[athenian200]

I'm actually pretty sure it will work, the changes between VS2015 and VS 2022 were a lot more extensive than anything since, but even those changes were possible to work around.

The thing is, a lot of our users are still on Windows 7, and any newer compiler would make Windows 10 a minimum requirement. While that's arguably not unreasonable given that Windows 10 is now in extended support phase (basically where Windows 7 was when the ESUs were coming out), the cost of pushing newer Windows versions on our userbase has only gone up since we ditched XP. There's an increasing number of people that will only run ancient Windows.

To put it bluntly, that whole generation of XP holdouts was created by Windows Vista's issues. Now just think how bad that XP situation was, even with Windows 7 as a mitigating factor, and imagine how long we are going to be asked to support Windows 7 since there hasn't been a great version of Windows people love since that one...

EDIT: All of that said, I think there's no problem with trying to use newer Visual Studio for your own personal builds (like FranklinDM tried) if you're on Windows 10 or 11 and want to see if it works better or is more optimized, etc.

[Mæstro]

The thing is, a lot of our users are still on Windows 7, and any newer compiler would make Windows 10 a minimum requirement.

Here is the first explicit statement spelling out why, when a given piece of software’s outward functionality appears on a par with examples known to run in Windows 2000, the system requirements are so much higher. (Store demands for high-resolution assets are perhaps another.) Developers rely on their compilers, which impose their own limits. Visual Studio is Microsoft’s, permitting Redmond to exploit its position of power in yet another way. Thank you for resolving an idea which had long been vague in my mind!

While that's arguably not unreasonable given that Windows 10 is now in extended support phase (basically where Windows 7 was when the ESUs were coming out), the cost of pushing newer Windows versions on our userbase has only gone up since we ditched XP. There's an increasing number of people that will only run ancient Windows.

Could open communication about the reasons for this help if this choice were to be made? I am thinking of the time that Pale Moon increased its minimum CPU instruction set, leaving my computer, to my relief, barely young enough to retain support. Perhaps it could only go so far. Some users might think that the choice would reek of SeaMonkey abandoning NPAPI and declaring its intent to adopt WebExtensions in the long term. Much of Pale Moon’s popularity, I think, is because UXP, by its nature, actively resists the combines yanking technical or interface standards in their oligopoly’s interest, like a farmer drawing his bull by the nose. Anything which appears to surrender ground to them can then be regarded as a strategic blunder at best, treason at worst.

To put it bluntly, that whole generation of XP holdouts was created by Windows Vista's issues. Now just think how bad that XP situation was, even with Windows 7 as a mitigating factor, and imagine how long we are going to be asked to support Windows 7 since there hasn't been a great version of Windows people love since that one...

Although Windows 7 ESU only ended in 2024, it is fair to guess that the average current Windows 7 user’s threat model considers the major IT firms greater enemies than malware authors. How much this is justified would depend on his own browsing habits, use of extensions and ability to outwit social engineering. If web standards and design were static, he might even tolerate it if security updates were to lapse. (The IE6 days come to mind.) As it stands, he would seem to need updates simply because Google chooses to exploit its monopoly here, just like how Microsoft exploits its in preparing development software. Sites he likes change beneath his feet to implement Google’s latest harebrained draft, possibly because the web developer has been taught no better (plausible, according to what my friend in such courses now has said), possibly because the webmaster has no HTML experience and is using a site generator which is worse for browser diversity than Microsoft Frontpage. The same underlying problem surfaces in several points beneath our foundations.

[RealityRipple]

Developers rely on their compilers, which impose their own limits. Visual Studio is Microsoft’s, permitting Redmond to exploit its position of power in yet another way.

This is why I still use VS2010 for all of my .NET projects.

[andyprough]

To put it bluntly, that whole generation of XP holdouts was created by Windows Vista's issues. Now just think how bad that XP situation was, even with Windows 7 as a mitigating factor, and imagine how long we are going to be asked to support Windows 7 since there hasn't been a great version of Windows people love since that one...

In other words, "Windows makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

[UCyborg]

To put it bluntly, that whole generation of XP holdouts was created by Windows Vista's issues. Now just think how bad that XP situation was, even with Windows 7 as a mitigating factor, and imagine how long we are going to be asked to support Windows 7 since there hasn't been a great version of Windows people love since that one...

This song sounds more relevant than ever. Some details have changed over the years, but the point stands.

One thing about Visual Studio, I miss 2008's aesthetics. Looks as lame as Chrome today.

[Mæstro]

I miss 2008's aesthetics.

We all do. Half the opposition to modern IT would likely go away if software came with a ‘noughts mode’, in the way many users today expect the choice between light and dark. I was pleased when a friend showed me earlier today the interface for Uma Musume, the anime horse girl game. It was charming, akin to the original Wii’s interface. The same can be said about BanG Dream, at least in the older screenshots I could see. I still wish I knew why flat design caught on. My best guess is that, like we could see in the Nick channel logos, appealing to businessmen in their trade meetings came to trump anything else.

[RealityRipple]

Speak for yourself; I hated GUI from Windows XP onward.

[UCyborg]

I only ever really liked Aero, never cared for anything else. I found looking for themes for an odd program that may support theming pointless endeavor.

[Gemmaugr]

Flat Design is awful indeed. I quite liked the Win XP style, but can see how too much analogue Skeuomorphism can be bad. I'd like a "hard" Neumorphism. Neo-Morphius if you will..

[Mæstro]

Speak for yourself; I hated GUI from Windows XP onward.

You are not the only one I have encountered on these boards to dislike XP and 7’s designs. Although many of us here, including me, like them, I used Windows Classic when actually on Windows 7, and I would also be content to freeze UI in 1999.

[UCyborg]

The requirements say it works best with whooping 64 GB of RAM! When did Node.js and WebView become mandatory processes? The Chromification is everywhere.

[Mæstro]

Wow, that is more than ten times what I have got! Perhaps I should download more RAM.

A few days ago, I learnt that since 2018, Google has been ranking sites to favour mobile-centric design. It is obvious in hindsight to know it uses its search monopoly to enforce its browser monopoly and dictate web design in such a way that it punishes everybody but Android users except inasmuch as they ally themselves with Google (as Microsoft has).

I had found this through a citation in the Wikipedia article on web design, which is surprisingly robust. The further articles on progressive enhancement (graceful degradation viewed the other way round) and unobtrusive JavaScript were breaths of fresh air, alerting me to some books I would like to read. I find that many web pages these days look better during their flash of unstyled text than when fully rendered.

[andyprough]

Perhaps I should download more RAM.

Alternatively, you could get a memory stick stretcher.

memory stick stretcher ii.png

[moonbat]

The further articles on progressive enhancement (graceful degradation viewed the other way round)

You'll like this article from 2008.