[Suggestion] Add the ability to hide the title bar in palemoon for linux

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gray37
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[Suggestion] Add the ability to hide the title bar in palemoon for linux

Unread post by gray37 » 2022-11-11, 03:11

As the title suggests, being able to hide the title bar in Linux would be wonderful. Tons of people needed this in firefox long ago, which firefox addressed.

Sadly palemoon has no way to remove the title bar if you are in linux. On my windows machine it's easy as it disappears with disabling the "menu bar" but in linux it remains.

This feature I feel is past due and holding palemoon back, at least for linux because its quite annoying to have the title bar in 2022, enough to push you to use a different browser.

I know I am not the only person missing this in my life, and I would love to use palemoon over waterfox, but..

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Re: [Suggestion] Add the ability to hide the title bar in palemoon for linux

Unread post by Lucio Chiappetti » 2022-11-11, 10:58

AFAIK the title bar you mention (which personally I like) is a "window decoration" added by the X11 window manager, so its presence should be controlled outside of Pale Moon (I'd know how to drop it using FVWM, the wm I use, but you probably are using another one).
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Re: [Suggestion] Add the ability to hide the title bar in palemoon for linux

Unread post by vannilla » 2022-11-11, 11:55

Lucio Chiappetti wrote:
2022-11-11, 10:58
so its presence should be controlled outside of Pale Moon
Strictly speaking Pale Moon can hide the title bar by itself and do the same things it does on e.g. Windows, but due to the lack of uniform appearance among different toolkits, unlike Windows and macOS, no application targeting UNIX-like systems bothers with faking the title bar and simply defer the work to GTK or whatever.

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Re: [Suggestion] Add the ability to hide the title bar in palemoon for linux

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-11-11, 12:18

vannilla wrote:
2022-11-11, 11:55
no application targeting UNIX-like systems bothers with faking the title bar and simply defer the work to GTK or whatever.
It just uses the normal window decoration on Linux, like any other application.
If you remove the menu bar, you still need to provide access to the menu some other way. Our solution on Windows is the Pale Moon button but "painting over" the standard window decorations on Linux is (1) often not possible and (2) depends in so many ways on user metrics that it would be unfeasible to maintain for every distro and configuration out there.
so it's not so much "not bothering" but rather it being literally an impossible task.
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Re: [Suggestion] Add the ability to hide the title bar in palemoon for linux

Unread post by Toa-Nuva » 2022-11-11, 17:53

In the past, I used an old version of a Firefox extension called "Hide Caption Titlebar Plus" for this purpose. I don't remember if I stopped using it when Pale Moon fully dropped support for Firefox addons at some point, or if there were some other incompatibilities introduced over time. I quickly got used to having the titlebar back, so I never had any need to go back to it, but it might be worth looking into if that feature is important to you.

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Re: [Suggestion] Add the ability to hide the title bar in palemoon for linux

Unread post by gray37 » 2022-11-12, 23:50

Moonchild wrote:
2022-11-11, 12:18
vannilla wrote:
2022-11-11, 11:55
no application targeting UNIX-like systems bothers with faking the title bar and simply defer the work to GTK or whatever.
It just uses the normal window decoration on Linux, like any other application.
If you remove the menu bar, you still need to provide access to the menu some other way. Our solution on Windows is the Pale Moon button but "painting over" the standard window decorations on Linux is (1) often not possible and (2) depends in so many ways on user metrics that it would be unfeasible to maintain for every distro and configuration out there.
so it's not so much "not bothering" but rather it being literally an impossible task.
except other applications, like chrome and even waterox either hide the title bar by default or have it by a toggle.
Saying it's only linux-behavior and linux's fault is a fallacy, this behavior has been fixed on every other browser for whatever platform more than half a decade ago

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Re: [Suggestion] Add the ability to hide the title bar in palemoon for linux

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-11-13, 02:28

gray37 wrote:
2022-11-12, 23:50
Saying it's only linux-behavior and linux's fault is a fallacy,
That isn't at all what I said.
What I said is that the tricks used on Windows to paint our own window content the way we're doing in Pale Moon doesn't translate to Linux due to the wildly varying nature of window managers, DEs, widgets sets and decorations in use. As such the way this is handled is by defaulting to a normal window as provided by the system. The fallacy is that you seem to be expecting Pale Moon to not behave like other windows in that case.
gray37 wrote:
2022-11-12, 23:50
this behavior has been fixed on every other browser for whatever platform more than half a decade ago
I don't see in what way this is "broken" and "should be fixed". the way other browsers work around this (it's not a "fix") is by fully enforcing a flat, bland, minimalistic and completely not integrated theme to the browser window. That is not the way we do things here. Pale Moon has always attempted to provide a system-native look regardless of platform in use, as opposed to a "unified brand" look across platforms. If that is what you want from your browser, then Pale moon may not be the right choice for you, although using themes and some extensions may give you exactly what you want, as well.

As an aside, the title bar and window caption in it has been maintained in Pale Moon's default theme as a design choice on purpose, even on Windows where the content is custom-drawn, as I find it important to have the page title be displayed in the browser window. Contrary to many other applications where that is static, it actually has a specific function in a web browser.
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Re: [Suggestion] Add the ability to hide the title bar in palemoon for linux

Unread post by gray37 » 2022-11-14, 07:13

Moonchild wrote:
2022-11-13, 02:28
gray37 wrote:
2022-11-12, 23:50
Saying it's only linux-behavior and linux's fault is a fallacy,
That isn't at all what I said.
What I said is that the tricks used on Windows to paint our own window content the way we're doing in Pale Moon doesn't translate to Linux due to the wildly varying nature of window managers, DEs, widgets sets and decorations in use. As such the way this is handled is by defaulting to a normal window as provided by the system. The fallacy is that you seem to be expecting Pale Moon to not behave like other windows in that case.
gray37 wrote:
2022-11-12, 23:50
this behavior has been fixed on every other browser for whatever platform more than half a decade ago
I don't see in what way this is "broken" and "should be fixed". the way other browsers work around this (it's not a "fix") is by fully enforcing a flat, bland, minimalistic and completely not integrated theme to the browser window. That is not the way we do things here. Pale Moon has always attempted to provide a system-native look regardless of platform in use, as opposed to a "unified brand" look across platforms. If that is what you want from your browser, then Pale moon may not be the right choice for you, although using themes and some extensions may give you exactly what you want, as well.

As an aside, the title bar and window caption in it has been maintained in Pale Moon's default theme as a design choice on purpose, even on Windows where the content is custom-drawn, as I find it important to have the page title be displayed in the browser window. Contrary to many other applications where that is static, it actually has a specific function in a web browser.
"the way other browsers work around this is by enforcing a flat, bland, minimalistic and completely not integrated theme to the browser window."

No they do not. They just hide the title bar, which is wasting valuable real-estate. I am still able to customize my browser to whatever I want it to look like. Also, palemoon OFFERS this ability in windows. You already have it, so making up excuses and saying the title bar has a function (it doesn't except the x button, which gets moved to the same location as tabs when hidden in every other browser) is a complete lie. It doesn't have to translate to linux, you fix it for linux. Firefox native allows this, waterfox does, chrome does, brave does.

I do not need or want a quarter inch of my screen being taken up with a blank white bar that says "pale moon" if it isn't necessary. I'm not even sure you know what the title bar even is!

the fallacy is thinking holding back a browser in development because you either cannot code it or won't because it's not important to you is why this is a dead project. I've used palemoon for years on windows (as my secondary browser), but thanks dude, you've convinced me and I've already migrated to waterfox. Coincidentally it uses less ram, loads my pages faster, and allows me freedom of use while probably being more secure to boot.

I find it highly inappropriate you attack someone for making a good suggestion, one that every other web development community decided to fix several years ago because it does impact your users, their preferences, and ultimately decides for some people whether they want to use the browser at all. Title bars on browsers are a sin, it's not windows 98 anymore, sorry.
Sadly I will never use palemoon again, it probably isn't secure if this is the attitude around here. Sa-yo-na-ra.

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Re: [Suggestion] Add the ability to hide the title bar in palemoon for linux

Unread post by moonbat » 2022-11-14, 07:39

gray37 wrote:
2022-11-14, 07:13
I find it highly inappropriate you attack someone for making a good suggestion
Ah, the fucking irony.
It's all you've been doing here, when you were specifically told to use whatever other browser suits your purpose. Tell you what, let's flip this around; go on r/firefox and complain about that browser not supporting full themes and XUL extensions the way Pale Moon continues to do, and see how they respond. Should be entertaining.
gray37 wrote:
2022-11-14, 07:13
Title bars on browsers are a sin, it's not windows 98 anymore, sorry.
Yeah, because there were no title bars on Windows ME,2000,XP,Vista, 7,8,8.1 or 10. Again, as said before - go stick to your other browsers if this is such a dealbreaker.

People primarily use Pale Moon for its customizability through continued support for powerful extensions - that no other browser can provide. So if all you care about is a freaking titlebar why on earth were you even using Pale Moon in the first place?
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Re: [Suggestion] Add the ability to hide the title bar in palemoon for linux

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-11-14, 09:51

gray37 wrote:
2022-11-14, 07:13
I find it highly inappropriate you attack someone for making a good suggestion, one that every other web development community decided to fix several years ago because it does impact your users
I find it highly inappropriate that you don't even attempt to understand my explanations and are just feeling butthurt because you can't get what you want right away and think that somehow Pale Moon should cater to a trend in UI that doesn't exist in any other application.
gray37 wrote:
2022-11-14, 07:13
Sadly I will never use palemoon again, it probably isn't secure if this is the attitude around here.
This has nothing to do with security :lol:
Just throwing that in to try and gaslight, are you? Sorry, doesn't work.
Anyway, you not using Pale Moon is fine. "No skin off of my back", as they say.
Like I always say you should use what works best for your workflow. Good luck finding something that works better and doesn't upset your UI sensitivities.

P.S.: Got to love how it went from a "suggestion" to "something that needs to be fixed" (bug) to "how dare you not fix this dealbreaker" in the space of a few posts... :coffee:
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"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

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