A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

[Pallid Planetoid]

Off-topic:

... When it comes to privacy and protection from malware/exploits - I don't really know what to think of Palemoon. It's not reviewed....

Perhaps this will help (maybe a little) FWIW - at least in respect to where Pale Moon has been recently ranked on a number of websites in this regard:
Pale Moon is getting on lists of top secure/private browsers for 2022.

Btw, just found this topic today (as I've been limiting my exposure to the forum) - nice to see stuff getting resolved.

(changed to "off-topic" in response to subsequent post - to elaborate, my objective was to provide feedback to a post in this specific topic limited to only the "ranking" of Pale Moon on the subject of "privacy and protection" w/out expanding any further on the subject as referenced in the snippet of "that post" above that I was responding to and to be clear - was not in any way intended to hijack the topic - sorry if my intentions were misconstrued.... ).

[Moonchild]

I think that particular thing would be better discussed in a different thread than this. I'll be more than happy to answer specific questions about security and privacy of Pale Moon, just not here

[R3n_001]

I have just gone and read through this entire thread. (Which is rare for me to do) I'm going to respond to a few posts, and give my thoughts. I was only notified that this existed today, sorry for being late.

I think this is a positive change, even though I wasn't really impacted by it. (Mainly because I use Waterfox) When I tried Pale Moon 29.4.4 AVX, I was able to use the classic Firefox extensions I wanted with little modification. (I didn't even realize that they work without modification now) I have a couple WebExtensions that somewhat hold me back from being able to use Pale Moon though on the addons side.

Pale Moon is the best browser for running multiple tabs and using classic addons and plugins.

I dunno, Pale Moon can get very, very slow when dealing with lots of tabs due to not having e10s.

I think there's interesting possibilities with Pale Moon rebasing on Firefox ESR. It would solve the issue of constantly trying to work in new web standards that are difficult to implement and instead focus on improving the Firefox experience. Give user choice back like re-enable NPAPI plugin support, tab on top/bottom option in the menu so CSS tricks aren't required, reimplement a functional status bar, and etc. Instead of trying to make your own browser which is a massive undertaking, improve one that already exists and basing on ESR would make that process easier.

You've basically described what modern releases of Waterfox have been. Releases of Firefox ESR with some modifications like that. At that point, I'd rather just use Firefox and get the benefits of a non-ESR engine.

As time has shown, webext got embraced, some extensions died, some adjusted and some replaced. I feel that holding onto legacy extensions is the most user base narrowing factor, you simply cant grow with that. And growing userbase should be one the aims of a projects anyway. I read Mr Straver's comment that webextensions cant be implemented, and yet I need to ask - why? That one change exposes PM to all users that feel uncomfortable with FF.

WebExtensions are getting more and more necessicary to implement as time goes on. It's all some people know, and easier to work with. I have been able to figure out how to modify some WebExtensions, but modifying legacy extensions, let alone creating a new one to replicate a existing WebExtension is near impossible for me to do. Nobody else seems to want to make legacy versions, so I just don't know what to do.
For adding WebExtensions to Pale Moon, I think looking at Waterfox Classic development could help, they were able to get some modern 57+ WebExtensions working on a pre-quantum codebase. I'm actually using a few of them right now in my browser.

There are a few people I know using XP daily, on bare metal not in virtual machines, at home or at work, and this cannot be changed for various reasons other than sheer moronic stubbornness. They recently complained about not being able to log into their Wordpress blog accounts with any available browser. And there aren't many such browsers at all. Irony is I currently can't log in myself either with Pale Moon on Linux Mint 19.2. The XP users and the Pale Moon users and who-knows-how-many-others in time are like the unvaccinated in New Brunswick, Canada that are being denied access to grocery stores.

Although it would probably never happen, making Pale Moon compatible with XP would be an easy task due to the browser having no Rust code. Firefox extension support combined with that would basically kill the need for the forks that people here love to hate on so much.
Also comparing XP users or users not using whatever is current to anti vaxxers is an ignorant comparison that the wider Rust loving internet uses. We shouldn't act like them.

On the other hand in PM i just miss now a UserAgentSwitcher.

Last I checked, general.useragent.override in about:config works just fine.

There's also one last thing I want to mention on this topic, but I don't know what to quote for it.
I think the addons site isn't that big of a task to redo/rework. Gecko and Goanna based browsers have no trouble installing from a simple download link. I would prefer that the addons site just be a bunch of html pages that give info on the addon and have a button to install it, instead of what it is now where I have to fake my useragent on Waterfox Classic to be able to install Pale Moon extensions that also work with my browser.

Off-topic:

As I MAY have a lot of work once to do once I am set up in Texas

Why are you moving to Texas? Everything is worse there, especially the people.

[van p]

Off-topic:

Off-topic:

New Tobin Paradigm wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 22, 2021 10:40 am
As I MAY have a lot of work once to do once I am set up in Texas

Why are you moving to Texas? Everything is worse there, especially the people.

Discussed here: https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=26389.

[Drugwash]

Although it would probably never happen, making Pale Moon compatible with XP would be an easy task due to the browser having no Rust code. Firefox extension support combined with that would basically kill the need for the forks that people here love to hate on so much.
Also comparing XP users or users not using whatever is current to anti vaxxers is an ignorant comparison that the wider Rust loving internet uses. We shouldn't act like them.

Probably misunderstood. That quote was somewhat a rant against those at higher levels who keep changing the standards, thus leaving many people - such as XP users, Pale Moon users and others - on the outside. Personally I'm not comparing those with the anti-vaxxers, it's just the way both groups are being treated with denial and many times with hatred, as if they were subhumans only by deliberately choosing something different.

[moonbat]

such as XP users

Don't club those here. XP users and those of them using Pale Moon unauthorized builds in particular, keep showing up here asking for support when that is explicitly forbidden, instead of going to whoever makes those builds. The issue is not just with them using XP - if they want to use an 8 years since last maintained proprietary OS that's their call - but going around acting entitled to help from where it is not to meant to be asked.

[Moonchild]

I'm going to respond to a few posts, and give my thoughts.

I'm not entirely sure why this thread at this point is continued with "oh you should be more like a rebuild instead of a fork" or "oh you should adopt another extension technology" which we decided against early on for its inferiority, or "you should adopt e10s" or "you should adopt {your random incompatible tech here}".

Please understand that we are restricted by our legacy in what can be done, restricted in our resources in what can be done, and will not willy-nilly adopt the latest suggestions that go directly against the project's vision and principles laid out at the base of it just because we are making a course change here.
My vision for Pale Moon has not changed. It will continue to be Pale Moon with its broad underlying idea behind it and I will continue to listen to input from users, but don't expect me to just radically change what it is to get lost in the torrent of chasing a moving target or a ghost.

If you don't understand that, then maybe you should continue using Waterfox and keep hopping along with that. Your priorities are clearly not very aligned with Pale Moon.

[R3n_001]

I'm not entirely sure why this thread at this point is continued with "oh you should be more like a rebuild instead of a fork" or "oh you should adopt another extension technology" which we decided against early on for its inferiority, or "you should adopt e10s" or "you should adopt {your random incompatible tech here}".

Please understand that we are restricted by our legacy in what can be done, restricted in our resources in what can be done, and will not willy-nilly adopt the latest suggestions that go directly against the project's vision and principles laid out at the base of it just because we are making a course change here.
My vision for Pale Moon has not changed. It will continue to be Pale Moon with its broad underlying idea behind it and I will continue to listen to input from users, but don't expect me to just radically change what it is to get lost in the torrent of chasing a moving target or a ghost.

If you don't understand that, then maybe you should continue using Waterfox and keep hopping along with that. Your priorities are clearly not very aligned with Pale Moon.

My priorities are aligned with making a good pre-Quantum browser. Waterfox Classic has had some issues in that it has gotten slower beginning with the 2021.09 release, and I've been thinking of switching browsers. (Currently looking at Firefox Developer Edition) I was suggesting these things for Pale Moon since I could see myself switching to it.

I want to use Pale Moon because it has the PMChrome theme, and nobody wants to port it or the old Chrome styled theme it was based off of to Waterfox Classic. That's literally the main reason, don't laugh pls.

[4td8s]

WebExtensions are getting more and more necessicary to implement as time goes on. It's all some people know, and easier to work with. I have been able to figure out how to modify some WebExtensions, but modifying legacy extensions, let alone creating a new one to replicate a existing WebExtension is near impossible for me to do. Nobody else seems to want to make legacy versions, so I just don't know what to do.
For adding WebExtensions to Pale Moon, I think looking at Waterfox Classic development could help, they were able to get some modern 57+ WebExtensions working on a pre-quantum codebase. I'm actually using a few of them right now in my browser.

just a reminder - read this about webextensions in case you're not aware

Pale Moon (as an application) will likely never support WebExtensions

[BlakeyRat]

I don't have a lot of interest in creating extensions for Palemoon for one simple reason - I don't need them.

But... if you personally don't need any bells and whistles that doesn't mean you can't try to help others if you have the knowledge, the will, and spare time to do it. It's an exercise in being altruistic, as corny as it may sound for this century and these troubled times.

I only use one extension, uBlock Origin. In my opinion, it should be built into Palemoon. But when I say that I have no interest in creating extensions I intended it as a compliment toward Palemoon. It is my preferred browser because it does exactly what I need without having to add any other extensions.

The other problem is, I just don't have the knowledge necessary to write extensions and just don't have the time to learn everything and then all the extra time needed for support, etc.

[Moonchild]

In my opinion, it should be built into Palemoon.

No, it should not, because then you preclude anyone else from making the choice which content blocker they want to use.
Your convenience of saving a few minutes installing an extension is not an argument to reduce other people's choice of features.

[Baloo]

A very thoughtful, interesting thread Moonchild as always. I still maintain that Pale Moon's biggest strength lies in its themes, which allows it to stay with previous looks of Firefox and Netscape. For the crazy user like me who is always looking to freeze his UI in a time of Windows long ago, Pale Moon will always be my browser because of its full theming, which has been so generously supported by the community here. I really do think the word done by FranklinDM and Lootyhoof and many others in maintaining these themes is one of Pale Moon's biggest strengths. What is more powerful than Nostalgia? I'll take a sane, compatible UI in a modern browser that works with 95% of websites over having every single solitary website work when Google does nothing but shift the goalposts every day to box out its competitors. I don't use too many add-ons with Pale Moon, currently only uBlock Origin really, I have used Greasemonkey and Redirector in the past. I am pretty simple with my web browsing. But the themes are just to me such a big reason of why I use the browser. It's why I found Pale Moon in the first place, when FranklinDM forked Foxscape to Moonscape years ago.

To me the other biggest strength of Pale Moon is the the privacy-focused, Google-less direction of the gracious devs who have tirelessly worked on preserving this corner of the independent web for us when Mozilla and Google have failed miserably at this. Thanks to Pale Moon, and I look forward to using Pale Moon for many years to come.

[Moonchild]

Speaking of themes, they will need to be updated and re-submitted, for those who aren't aware, once milestone 30 lands.
This is an inevitable result of the big changes that were made in the platform code and the issue that themes will have to target the Firefox GUID from that point forward (for obvious reasons, compatibility for full themes is always strict).
We'll eventually also make it easier to create your own themes by supplying standard theme packages that can be used as a starting point, which has become possible with the changes made (in no small measure thanks to Tobin's wand-waving over the add-on manager code).

[wolpi]

Thank you so much for V31. I'm so glad, that my theme still works flawlessly. The browser really delivers a great experience - so a huge thanks for your work.