A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Talk about code development, features, specific bugs, enhancements, patches, and similar things.
Forum rules
Please keep everything here strictly on-topic.
This board is meant for Pale Moon source code development related subjects only like code snippets, patches, specific bugs, git, the repositories, etc.

This is not for tech support! Please do not post tech support questions in the "Development" board!
Please make sure not to use this board for support questions. Please post issues with specific websites, extensions, etc. in the relevant boards for those topics.

Please keep things on-topic as this forum will be used for reference for Pale Moon development. Expect topics that aren't relevant as such to be moved or deleted.
User avatar
JELittleton
Moongazer
Moongazer
Posts: 7
Joined: 2018-08-24, 15:50

Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by JELittleton » 2021-12-18, 18:42

I'm a hardware tech with 35+ years supporting computers and users. I started with the Heathkit H89. It's success was due in large part to users that found ways to enhance computer operation with hardware and software mods that were later published in newsletters.

The primary reason I stay with Pale Moon is for that same functionality: Pale Moon allows me to customize the operation of the browser to suit my preferences and still meet the needs (of most) of the websites I regularly visit. Pale Moon and other browsers exist because the choices made by Google or Mozilla aren't always in the best interests of the user. Access to CSS userChrome, userContent, and WORKING extensions, for me, are options that strengthen Pale Moon and why I continue to use it today.

This thread is a good discussion. I'm happy to hear Pale Moon is listening to the user base. Pale Moon is the only browser I've willingly paid to use and I consider that money well spent.

Though I'm not a programmer, I did some "programming" a long time ago (Z80 assembler for personal use and Pascal for school). If assistance is needed supporting plugins, what resources are available so that we can learn how to help? Links are good. I'll do the work.

User avatar
pm4eva
Moonbather
Moonbather
Posts: 74
Joined: 2018-06-12, 10:26
Location: CET

Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by pm4eva » 2021-12-19, 07:25

I use Pale Moon as main browser cos it's small in RAM and i have a GUI with i can work well.
Also i can use TabMixPlus what makes it even better.
Another thing is GrabIt and that i can use different Download Manager directly.

That all worked in Firefox for years just Mozilla thinks they must change it without leaving us comfortable options to chose things again.

The engine of Firefox is ok so the idea is why not fork now Firefox and change the sourcecode in a way that we could have all the things back.
Addons exists now for the most cases just not for to change the GUI or that external download thing.

It is just an idea and i can live with 2 browsers also.
thx and greets

User avatar
Sajadi
Board Warrior
Board Warrior
Posts: 1226
Joined: 2013-04-19, 00:46

Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by Sajadi » 2021-12-19, 12:24

Just saying the following, as long as Pale Moon stays Pale Moon and keeps its customization I stay as user :) Not really caring if I have to use a different browser for every 2nd or 3rd page.

Regarding web compatibility... Just try to implement what works and just ignore what's impossible, even if it would be web components. Fact is, the difference between Firefox and Pale Moon has become so massive that almost every implementation has to be done from scratch and many specifications require the presence of other specifications today and implementations are highly difficult and time consuming.

It's impossible to do that without enough developers, so a second browser never can be avoided. Just do what's possible for you as developers and more than that nobody demands, my few cents :)

Because using a new code base (which was already mentioned as possible way "forward") as I believe will result in the end of customization as Mozilla has created way too much destruction just to be as close as possible to Chrome.

Pale Moon simply can't compete with the big mainstream browsers and trying to do so only leads to frustration and demotivation, so as sad as it is, also in web compatibility compromise has to be/should be made, but it's only Google which can be blamed for this unfortunate situation.

And it is highly disgusting to see Moonchild getting blamed (mostly from ignorant Reddit people) for something which is not at all his fault. A smaller project only can do so much, but to demand to "just fork Firefox and kill features available right now for the sake of web compatibility" is stupid and ignorant. Most people here still use Palemoon for its feature sets and are more than willing to accept compromise in form of using a secondary browser.

In the end we as users face now a simple choice... Seeing where this new direction leads us and hope that the browser can be as much as possible kept compatible with the web today - but if some users can't accept that logical Compromise and want instead 100% Chrome web compatibility only - they should stop make drama elsewhere, pick their preferred new browser and should be happy.

User avatar
mweishaar
Moongazer
Moongazer
Posts: 9
Joined: 2019-07-04, 14:35

Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by mweishaar » 2021-12-19, 13:52

khronosschoty wrote:
2021-12-18, 08:21
Its a tough place to be right now. It's like Google owns the modern web. Google and Facebook. I try to understand what exactly is github trying to accomplish by breaking things all the time? Its a slippery slope, no matter which direction you go. Its true that the old extensions had a lot more promise and worked better, in most ways. However, developers have basically all abandon their old extensions. I've been pretty much out of the loop; but I ask myself, whats wrong with moving forward and keeping extension compatibility with old Firefox extensions (or at least not intentionally killing it) but at the same time moving towards dedicated Pale Moon extensions? Not sure what answer is here.

My own view of things: Keep polishing and improving what we have. There is lots of ways to improve things. Work on hardening the browser. Work on web compatibility when needed... I haven't experienced a whole ton of web breakage personally; github is the one that always bites me, but for the most part things work well. I think if these things are done, we'll get more users and more devs in time. Staying the course and polishing what we have is the only true way forward imo...
I think the answer to your github question is a simple web search away "who owns github"?

User avatar
Zaragon
New to the forum
New to the forum
Posts: 1
Joined: 2019-05-16, 17:53

Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by Zaragon » 2021-12-20, 20:42

So, I have to say this is interesting to me, as I missed the poll, because I'm not really actively involved in the community (for various reasons). But I can see where it came from; the issues that Moonchild has mentioned have actually been responsible for slowly pushing me away (unwillingly) from using Pale Moon as my primary browser.

I, personally, use Pale Moon primarily because I massively prefer the old pre-Australis Firefox user interface. I originally started with Waterfox because it maintained a 64-bit build. I then switched to Pale Moon around 2013, when Pale Moon was on version 24.x. So I've been using Pale Moon for a while. I use it primarily because I prefer the old Firefox user interface more than any other reason, and I prefer to use it as my primary (and only) browser.

As time has gone on, but especially in the last couple of years, it has become more difficult for me to do that--the increasing Chromification of the web has caused more and more sites to simply not work properly (or at all) in anything but Google Chrome. There's no use in reporting any of the issues to any of the sites; their response is always some variant of "Well, it works in Chrome". I don't have the energy or the time to fight what are essentially unwinnable battles, so my choice always boils down to "stop using the site" vs. "use a Chrome-based browser just for this site". And as more time has gone on and the problem has gotten worse, it's gone from "Pale Moon is my primary browser, and I use a Chrome-based browser on the few sites it doesn't work on" to "I use Pale Moon on a few sites, and for everything else I have to use a Chrome-based browser for".

At some point Pale Moon stops having any utility. My wife already migrated away from it several years ago to Google Chrome precisely because of these issues, and my Mom is in the process of migrating to Vivaldi because her bank and her electric company's web site no longer work in Pale Moon. None of my friends that I introduced to it are still using it; my co-workers have never even heard of it. I personally still use it whenever I can, but it's gotten harder, and up until this post it seemed like the direction of Pale Moon was to fight increasingly irrelevant (to me) battles over extensions with less concern towards making it a general purpose browser that actually works properly on the majority of web sites.

This post (and accompanying change in direction) gives me hope that I can continue to use Pale Moon for some time to come. Compatibility issues didn't crop up overnight and won't get fixed overnight, but if the trend starts moving in the other direction that's enough for me.

User avatar
Tharthan
Board Warrior
Board Warrior
Posts: 1409
Joined: 2019-05-20, 20:07
Location: New England

Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by Tharthan » 2021-12-21, 03:29

Moonchild wrote:
2021-12-14, 14:59
Pale Moon will return to carrying the Firefox GUID (like Basilisk has done) instead of its own, to further improve extension compatibility.
This is too bad. I hope that, eventually, we go back to having Pale Moon be more independent in this regard.
"This is a war against individuality and intelligence. Only thing we can do is stand strong."adesh, 9 January 2020

"I used to think I was a grumpy old man, but I don't hold a candle compared to Tharthan."Cassette, 9 September 2020

Image

User avatar
Kris_88
Keeps coming back
Keeps coming back
Posts: 932
Joined: 2021-01-26, 11:18

Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by Kris_88 » 2021-12-21, 04:21

I played around a bit with the new FF.
I added files from my old add-on to omni.ja and added "content" line to the manifest file.
Then I tried to call my xul window through chrome url.
It works, just needed to rename .xul to .xhtml (otherwise no scripts are executed).
I mean, it might be easier to bring back support for old add-ons to the new FF than to update numerous web & js components in the old FF.
Moonchild, what do you think of that?

User avatar
moonbat
Knows the dark side
Knows the dark side
Posts: 4942
Joined: 2015-12-09, 15:45
Contact:

Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by moonbat » 2021-12-21, 04:27

Kris_88 wrote:
2021-12-21, 04:21
bring back support for old add-ons to the new FF
Firefox still uses XUL internally in some parts after ripping it out root and branch. Doesn't make a difference anyway now, cos neither are they going to add back XUL support and Pale Moon's already a functioning browser that supports it anyway.
"One hosts to look them up, one DNS to find them and in the darkness BIND them."

Image
Linux Mint 21 Xfce x64 on HP i5-5200 laptop, 12 GB RAM.
AutoPageColor|PermissionsPlus|PMPlayer|Pure URL|RecordRewind|TextFX

User avatar
Kris_88
Keeps coming back
Keeps coming back
Posts: 932
Joined: 2021-01-26, 11:18

Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by Kris_88 » 2021-12-21, 04:45

If we add support for old extensions to the new FF, and call it new Pale Moon, we get a browser that is compatible with the modern web, and WebExtensions support by the way.

User avatar
moonbat
Knows the dark side
Knows the dark side
Posts: 4942
Joined: 2015-12-09, 15:45
Contact:

Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by moonbat » 2021-12-21, 05:08

And pigs may fly. Who's 'we' though?
"One hosts to look them up, one DNS to find them and in the darkness BIND them."

Image
Linux Mint 21 Xfce x64 on HP i5-5200 laptop, 12 GB RAM.
AutoPageColor|PermissionsPlus|PMPlayer|Pure URL|RecordRewind|TextFX

User avatar
Kris_88
Keeps coming back
Keeps coming back
Posts: 932
Joined: 2021-01-26, 11:18

Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by Kris_88 » 2021-12-21, 05:13

moonbat wrote:
2021-12-21, 05:08
And pigs may fly. Who's 'we' though?
If you have nothing more meaningful to say, then it is better to remain silent.

van p
Astronaut
Astronaut
Posts: 592
Joined: 2015-11-19, 07:15
Location: Cincinnati, OH, U.S.A.

Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by van p » 2021-12-21, 05:22

Kris_88 wrote:
2021-12-21, 05:13
moonbat wrote:
2021-12-21, 05:08
And pigs may fly. Who's 'we' though?
If you have nothing more meaningful to say, then it is better to remain silent.
It's a perfectly legitimate question. Who's going to lead this parade? Don't everybody thrust their hand into the air at the same time.
Windows 10 Pro x64 v22H2 8GB i5-4570|Pale Moon v33.0.1 x64

User avatar
Kris_88
Keeps coming back
Keeps coming back
Posts: 932
Joined: 2021-01-26, 11:18

Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by Kris_88 » 2021-12-21, 05:34

Personally, I did not even think of leading something or somebody.

User avatar
moonbat
Knows the dark side
Knows the dark side
Posts: 4942
Joined: 2015-12-09, 15:45
Contact:

Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by moonbat » 2021-12-21, 06:42

Kris_88 wrote:
2021-12-21, 05:34
Personally, I did not even think of leading something or somebody.
Then it is you who should have kept quiet instead of coming up with a pie in the sky 'if only' comment that is totally meaningless and ignorant.
"One hosts to look them up, one DNS to find them and in the darkness BIND them."

Image
Linux Mint 21 Xfce x64 on HP i5-5200 laptop, 12 GB RAM.
AutoPageColor|PermissionsPlus|PMPlayer|Pure URL|RecordRewind|TextFX

User avatar
Kris_88
Keeps coming back
Keeps coming back
Posts: 932
Joined: 2021-01-26, 11:18

Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by Kris_88 » 2021-12-21, 07:01

I came up with an idea and know how to implement it in general terms. This is not out of the blue.
For myself, I will implement this, in one form or another.
But if you don't like this idea, then don't use it.
Take it easier.

van p
Astronaut
Astronaut
Posts: 592
Joined: 2015-11-19, 07:15
Location: Cincinnati, OH, U.S.A.

Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by van p » 2021-12-21, 07:33

Kris_88 wrote:
2021-12-21, 07:01
For myself, I will implement this, in one form or another.
When you get this working, in one form or another, why don't you let us know. Charts, graphs, pictures, arrows, circles, and explanatory paragraphs on the back would be helpful. Thanks.
Windows 10 Pro x64 v22H2 8GB i5-4570|Pale Moon v33.0.1 x64

User avatar
Sajadi
Board Warrior
Board Warrior
Posts: 1226
Joined: 2013-04-19, 00:46

Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by Sajadi » 2021-12-21, 08:30

Kris_88 wrote:
2021-12-21, 04:45
If we add support for old extensions to the new FF, and call it new Pale Moon, we get a browser that is compatible with the modern web, and WebExtensions support by the way.
Perhaps you get limited add on support XUL wise, but all customization option would be lost, As Firefox new is meant to be a browser without customization like Chrome is one too.

Pale Moon is so much more than only XUL add ons

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 35402
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Motala, SE
Contact:

Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-12-21, 10:33

There isn't much XUL support/code left in Firefox, at all. A few last vestiges have been the XUL tree and other deeply-rooted elements but most of it is gone and has been gone. Maybe you should have a look at the Firefox source code before making wild claims that you can have your pie and eat it too. There's no point in giving anyone false hope for any meaningful customization or legacy extensions in Firefox.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

User avatar
fatboy
Astronaut
Astronaut
Posts: 556
Joined: 2017-12-19, 08:03
Location: Canada

Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by fatboy » 2021-12-21, 13:18

Thanks for sharing, Moonchild.
I appreciate your thoughts and development efforts, and being the captain of this ship.

I see the community have spoken and that insecure, discontinued extensions will work once more.
Also, I can only imagine what a pain web compatibility is for you due to Developers and Google's lack of "standards".

As long as Pale Moon remains lean, mean and minimal and allowing the user to add functionality through extensions, I will use and love this browser.

I hope Basilisk finds a new home, it's another browser I really enjoy to use.
Systemd Free - MX Linux, Antix Linux & Artix Linux

User avatar
Kris_88
Keeps coming back
Keeps coming back
Posts: 932
Joined: 2021-01-26, 11:18

Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by Kris_88 » 2021-12-21, 14:23

Moonchild wrote:
2021-12-21, 10:33
There isn't much XUL support/code left in Firefox, at all.
Some things can be restored, but extensions usually do not use all the features of XUL either.
For example, the autofill.xpi that I made a year ago works in 91.0.1ESR (when i put it in omni.ja), but it cannot insert text due to e10s. But the window, the list, the file operations - everything works and does not require corrections.
Moonchild wrote:
2021-12-21, 10:33
There's no point in giving anyone false hope for any meaningful customization or legacy extensions in Firefox.
As to customization, there is the "Customize toolbar" dialog. I have little doubt that you can add your own elements.
Or what kind of customization are you talking about?

And yes, I'm not saying that extensions don't require adaptation. It will be needed in many cases. But this is an easier job than updating the regex parser, for example. And more people will be able to handle this work.

Locked