Building a Pale Moon fork for Windows XP

Talk about code development, features, specific bugzilla bugs, enhancements, patches, and other highly technical things.

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Re: Building Palemoon 27 for XP

Unread post by visionhelp » 2018-01-14, 13:33

Thehandyman1957 wrote:
mekineer wrote:In regards to http://www.msfn.org/board/topic/177125- ... oon-for-xp, made by roytam1
and https://github.com/Feodor2/Mypal/releases made by fedor2
Are you guys collaborating? If not, then I have no idea how to choose which one would be better, so please collaborate! Thanks for sticking with Windows XP. I'm sure a lot of people have a need for it.
I have tried to follow both just to keep up and I found that the one made by roytam1 is a bit more difficult to install as it's not in a .exe format.

The one made by fedor2 works great and is easy to install. My friend has had it on his XP for a bit now and has had no complaints and he is 82 years old. ;)
Hi, this sounds good.
Would You be able to make a list of all the downloads, which needs to be done, to install one after the other? With the links to the downloads?
With an - "easy" - install instruction?


And as long there exist two solutions, two alternatives, perhaps someone likes to do the same for the other version?
Perhaps some day it is possible to bring this two together, or some developments decide and determine the only one leaving which works for this, from this, from alone.
Until there then two versions, without anyone has to decide ´politically´ or what from.
There a enthusiasts working at these two versions. Hey, respect these works. and let them do it, please. They do not have only ideas, they do it running.
I more also would like to have not to work with the decision to which version. So I have to stop here. But respect to 2 versions, which work, of both, to both, and who else.

There are some guys working on an XP, non-Microsoft version, as I understand. Everybody who supports this, has my highest respect, and even two Pale Moon (Free)XP - Freaks-Pee, no, very sorry, JOKE PLEASE - have it, from me.

The brand-name: XP Pale Moon, Pale Moon XP - or 2k, too? -, this Pale Moon is only for XP?
What is the main difference(s) of these both versions, please? For perhaps a brand name extension, ´fed´ or ´roy´ or the main differences bringing to the point. Then with two brand-names of/for these two versions.
Last edited by visionhelp on 2018-01-14, 13:45, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Building Palemoon 27 for XP

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2018-01-14, 15:07

That isn't how trademark and intellectual property works mate. ;)
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Re: Building Palemoon 27 for XP

Unread post by Mercury » 2018-01-14, 17:45

New Tobin Paradigm wrote:So I am not allowed to criticize anyone about anything..
There's a world of difference between "This isn't being done correctly. Here's how to do it right." and "This is trash and you guys are clueless."
It's all about attitude.
You, in the face of this decided to ignore the information.
I read it and considered it, and given the evidence I had from running those builds myself I took a calculated risk. I repeatedly solicited stability reports from users. I only ever had one person complaining. Guess who that was?

This is the thing: "My way or the highway". Just because someone doesn't do something your way, it isn't grounds to belittle them.
You responded by saying you had NO intention of supporting the users who used your rebuild.
I did the best I could. I tried to help some people who ran ancient hardware like me. The alternative was no one doing it... would that have been better?
YOU couldn't work out how to get Tycho to build for XP for use in your SSE builds. So you just up and quit.. Leaving your unsupported users to have go find other alternatives with very little forewarning.
I made it clear from the start that a day would come when I would stop. I gave warning. I never claimed to be an expert. I never promised the moon. I couldn't invest the time into v27 so, yes, I quit. There is no reason to throw this in my face as if it were some kind of sin. It's not. I didn't do much, but what I did was positive.

All that said, I apologize for an incorrect statement I made, when I said you never gave me useful advice. I remember now, it's thanks to you that I was able to generate an executable installer for my builds, giving it a little bit of professionalism.

You have a lot of technical skill, and knowledge. Please be a bit friendlier to little people who are just doing what they can to help, so that more people can benefit.

Now, a bit more on-topic... (I contributed to this digression)

It seems this XP build has the pieces in place to be a workable piece of software, with a proper installer, its own name, and brand. It needs that extra bit of effort to make it happen.

Let's be realistic: The number of people using Windows XP is going down every day. The user base will be a fraction what PM has, and PM is itself one of the smaller browsers. Nothing huge is required. Skip the frills; just get it to the point where people can download an executable installer. Yes, Tobin can help here (if he's in a good mood ;) ). Respect the Pale Moon brand and just pick a name. Again, you don't need to over-complicate this step. (There are over 100 moons in our solar system you can name this browser for. Lots of them have pictures!).

You guys almost have it. :thumbup:
Last edited by Mercury on 2018-01-14, 17:50, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Building Palemoon 27 for XP

Unread post by visionhelp » 2018-01-14, 18:36

Sorry, who from Pale Moon does not want the version for XP be named with, for example, XP Pale Moon? And why?

But this question is finished, when the two owners of the two versions for XP do not want it themselves.

Calling it for example Moon of XP, or XP-Moon, does hide, it is the Pale Moon, does hide its source.
New Tobin Paradigm wrote:That isn't how trademark and intellectual property works mate. ;)
It was once a topic, so I am thinking loud about a possible name, not of ownership.
Last edited by visionhelp on 2018-01-14, 18:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Building Palemoon 27 for XP

Unread post by Moonchild » 2018-01-15, 08:44

Let me be clear here, as project owner and owner of the Pale Moon trademark: I do not want any rebranding to be so similar to the original that it can easily be confused. This is my right as trademark owner.

"Pale Moon XP", "XP Pale Moon", "Pale Moon for XP", "Pale Moon (XP edition)", etc. are unacceptable. Come up with something significantly different and new, that can not in any way be misunderstood as officially released by the Pale Moon team.
Off-topic:
By the way, the same goes for the recent trend I have seen for extensions -- just slapping on "(Moon edition)" is NOT re-branding and you are violating author's rights.
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Re: Building Palemoon 27 for XP

Unread post by visionhelp » 2018-01-15, 10:53

Moonchild wrote:Let me be clear here, as project owner and owner of the Pale Moon trademark: I do not want any rebranding to be so similar to the original that it can easily be confused.
Oh, sorry. OK. Thanks a lot from me.
I do not speak against Your rights, and not against Your decision.
Perhaps somewhere it is already for the most members here absolutely clear, that You, Moonchild, are the owner. It was not for me. I also did sadnessly misunderstood the word "Founder". "Moonchild Productions I would have understood better, I think. Sorry, again.
And my respect to to speak with the members of the forum here, for this Your work here and Your effort.

I am just working it out, for me.

So, am I right then, when I understand, that You are not interessted in the versions for XP under Your brand of Your Moonchild Productions?
Despite of the basics of the "versions for XP" of Pale Moon are based on Pale Moon?
I do not want to ask the question of my personal curiousity: why?

So, from this, the ownerships of the brandings the 2 "versions for XP, ´fed and roy´" are absolutely cleared, when they at best have it written on paper, when ´fed´ and ´roy´ are interessted in this ownership.
The copyright of their works are clear, so far also, except of the copyrights of the basics of Pale Moon, which are not from ´fed and roy´, Sorry the shortening. (As with books or music.)
Last edited by visionhelp on 2018-01-15, 13:58, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Building Palemoon 27 for XP

Unread post by Moonchild » 2018-01-15, 11:56

I've already stated clearly, many times in this thread, that I would prefer it if you brand it yourself and make it a fork of Pale Moon.

Yes, you understand correctly that I do not want any XP builds to be carrying the name "Pale Moon" or closely-related names, despite it being based on Pale Moon. It will be based on Pale Moon but the end product will be created and published by others, in a different configuration and with a different target audience, who have to provide their own support for it.
This is mainly to prevent confusion as to who is publishing these Pale Moon derivatives, and who is ultimately responsible for their operation, bugs or issues.

We have not supported XP for quite some time, and we do not want this derivative browser, no matter who publishes it, to give the impression to the world that this has changed. Pale Moon does not support Windows XP, has not for some time, and will not in the future. Can you see that this would cause confusion if a derivative uses a very closely related name? Can you see why I wouldn't want to deal with the fallout of that?
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Re: Building Palemoon 27 for XP

Unread post by Trinoc » 2018-01-15, 12:23

I think it would be useful if we had some positive guidance about what sorts of branding would be acceptable.

For extensions, if "moon version" is unacceptable, would "compatible with Palemoon" be OK?

For forks such as for XP, is something like "Newmoon" OK, or are all lunar references off limits?

Does the non-Palemoon branding have to propagate all the way through the file structure (sub-folder names etc.) or is it sufficient for the main folder to be called something like "Newmoon" and the main executable file to be called something like "newmoon.exe".

I'm not sure I understand the difference between earlier third party forks which were allowed to use the Palemoon label, e.g. SSE or Atom, and the new XP builds. Some clarification would be welcome.

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Re: Building Palemoon 27 for XP

Unread post by visionhelp » 2018-01-15, 13:56

Moonchild,

thank You very much. Despite of not asking You explain it, thanks.

And despite of Pale Moon is the basic of the versions for XP, You do not even want a note, - in relation to Your proberty of Pale Moon -, that these basics are in Your proberty?

And although it is usual and copyrights related and for respect to Your rights, to give at least a note of this?

I do not know, but I think, this could make a problem for the creators of the 2 versions of XP.
They can and may not do, as if these 2 versions would be ALL done by them, the copyright of the entire 2 versions for XP would be their creation alone.
Am I hitting the point?
I am not really quite sure, please.

I am able to understand and respect Your wish and free decision, which You have any right to, clear.
But no one just can represent, that - in this case - the 2 new versions for XP are all the creations of the creators.
And if You, Moonchild, would deny to give an official license as permission to do so, then nobody can take this part of Pale Moon as basic for new versions, and may represent, this is OUR creation, nor, that they have nothing to do with Your Pale Moon.


Please, let me know, whether I am into the right direction of that thing here, thanks.
Last edited by visionhelp on 2018-01-15, 13:59, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Building Palemoon 27 for XP

Unread post by visionhelp » 2018-01-15, 14:33

If I understand this correctly, Moonchild does not even want any note to be related to Pale Moon.

And IF I understand correct, then it is to recommend, to build the parts, the basics, of Pale Moon quite new, to avoid copyrights violations.
And then - usual - want to note, that this complete new version of Pale Moon is based on the IDEA of Pale Moon, could be possible, even without the permission of Moonchild Productions, but clearly doing the distance to Pale Moon, despite this, should help this.

And the name may not even be "Moon" and "Pale" or "PaMo" or "OonPa" or something similar phantastic, which stays related to Pale Moon, if somebody knows the name Pale Moon.

"le-mo", JOKE.

To find a name already is very hard to realize, if the browser is related to Pale Moon, but the relation is not wanted to be done.

There then is still only possible to make a big distance to Pale Moon, when Pale Moon Productions does not want to do an offer, whith which both could live with.

This is, what I just can think now about it.
Last edited by visionhelp on 2018-01-15, 14:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Building Palemoon 27 for XP

Unread post by Mercury » 2018-01-15, 15:05

Trinoc wrote:I'm not sure I understand the difference between earlier third party forks which were allowed to use the Palemoon label, e.g. SSE or Atom, and the new XP builds. Some clarification would be welcome.
IIUIC, those were not "forks", but "editions". They were still Pale Moon, but differently optimized for specific reasons.
The XP version cannot be Pale Moon. It can be based on it, but it must officially be a different product; a true fork.

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Re: Building Palemoon 27 for XP

Unread post by Trinoc » 2018-01-15, 15:16

Mercury wrote:
Trinoc wrote:I'm not sure I understand the difference between earlier third party forks which were allowed to use the Palemoon label, e.g. SSE or Atom, and the new XP builds. Some clarification would be welcome.
IIUIC, those were not "forks", but "editions". They were still Pale Moon, but differently optimized for specific reasons.
The XP version cannot be Pale Moon. It can be based on it, but it must officially be a different product; a true fork.
I see, sort-of. SSE may well have been just a case of compiling the same source with a compiler option to use nothing beyond SSE instructions.

Atom, on the other hand as I understand it, was not only a compiler option for Atom CPU optimisations, but was also XP-compatible while the corresponding main line Palemoon no longer supported XP.

Presumably this means that the Atom build had specific code changes (not just compiler options) for XP compatibility, much as the XP versions we are discussing here presumably have.

Or perhaps it would be more correct to say that the current main line Palemoon has code changes to take advantage of OS features not in XP, while the Atom and the current XP versions stick closer to the code the main line Palemoon had when it still supported XP.

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Re: Building Palemoon 27 for XP

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2018-01-15, 15:55

Look kids.. Why not name it Callisto or something if you want to maintain a moon-y connection...
Image6.png
STILL it does NOT have to be a damned moon.. It can be anything.. Pick an animal.. or a planet.. Or a yellow cube with networking lines on it.
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Re: Building Palemoon 27 for XP

Unread post by Trinoc » 2018-01-15, 16:06

Folks, I don't care what it's called (within reason)!

In fact I'd like it to have a different name, all the way through the file structure, so that it can be installed alongside the last official XP Palemoon (26.5.0) while it is being checked out and while the right extensions are being located.

At the moment I can't install two different versions of Palemoon in Windows, and if I try to run two different versions of Palemoon Portable at the same time it either jumps into the Palemoon that is already running, or it says something like "Palemoon is already running - please close it first".

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Re: Building Palemoon 27 for XP

Unread post by visionhelp » 2018-01-16, 17:25

Rename the .exe-file call-file of the second Pale Moon should help. But I am not sure, whether this well let run both at the same time, sorry.

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Re: Building Palemoon 27 for XP

Unread post by Trinoc » 2018-01-16, 17:41

visionhelp wrote:Rename the .exe-file call-file of the second Pale Moon should help. But I am not sure, whether this well let run both at the same time, sorry.
I don't think it's as simple as that. I tried running Palemoon 24 and 26 together by changing the first of these to palemoon24.exe (and palemoon24-portable.exe), changing the names in user.ini as well, but still Windows got them confused.

Can anyone explain how a program run under Windows checks whether there is another copy of the program already running? I would have thought it would simply check the full path of the exe file, but if that were true it would be possible to run two separate copies of Palemoon Portable from different directories without interference. So what is it?

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Re: Building Palemoon 27 for XP

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2018-01-16, 17:57

Renaming the exe won't help.. That is stuff that is built into application code.

This is one of the dozen things that need to be done properly that they either don't know about or don't care to bother doing to resolve issues like this... I don't say these things to just be an obstructionist. I want to help.. But take Mercury's advice and don't listen to me.. Keep running into issues with your parody project for users of a long abandoned and insecure operating system or a non-consumer version they are running illegally.. I don't care. Less work for me.
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Re: Building Palemoon 27 for XP

Unread post by visionhelp » 2018-01-16, 19:14

I hope, somebody knows exact and is able to share it here.
New Tobin Paradigm wrote:parody project for users of a long abandoned and insecure operating system or a non-consumer version they are running illegally.. I don't care. Less work for me.
Oh, a little big troll, sorry.

"parody project", and You want to be a part of it?

"insecure": ah, always this Microsoft´s ´lobby´ argument, so many security holes are never possible, as they did all the years update with 300 and more MBs updates, please.
And use the fitting software, to protect this insecure, - from the beginning - and extensive paid, XP.
This will be told from the next Microsoft´s products, too. The same and the same and the same.

An XP programmed with new code, different than the XP´s is no copyright violation.
Maybe some grafical duplicates could be.
Perhaps Microsoft will care. And goes to the court. And then the branding is going on with this.
Last edited by visionhelp on 2018-01-16, 19:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Building Palemoon 27 for XP

Unread post by Moonchild » 2018-01-16, 19:38

Cut the software politics, guys. Seriously.
  • The Atom/XP version was officially supported AND published by me before we dropped XP support. That is not the same as someone not-me making a new fork from Pale Moon at a point where we've officially dropped support for it.
  • I don't care what you name it. Call it Unicorn for all I care -- and you can mention it's based on or derived from Pale Moon, just don't call the thing itself Pale Moon-something.
  • Basic re-branding is NOT that difficult, just have a look at /browser/branding and how the official and unofficial branding folders are set up. But you have to do that properly, not build an officially-branded browser and then do hackery on the binaries -- that's completely the wrong way to go about it.
  • Building a proper XP version with all things like subsystem flags taken care of is also not that difficult -- but please do accept Tobin's help if you don't know how to. He's offered many times now to help you out and getting this set up properly as an independently-released browser. I don't think he's going to keep offering his help, especially not if all he gets is negativity in return.
Bottom line: please brand your effort. PICK SOMETHING. come up with a name, make a logo, and use that to create a branding folder based on the unofficial one as a template/base for the sake of ease. Get that rolling, get help with re-branding if you need it, get help from Tobin re: specific build system changes you need. All this doesn't have to take more than a day (as opposed to puttering in this thread for months and not doing what is advised). Take credit for your efforts; this side-project is YOURS. Make it so.
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Re: Building Palemoon 27 for XP

Unread post by visionhelp » 2018-01-16, 19:52

Thank You, Childmoon, for clear words.

I would like to know, what the 2 developers of the 2 versions of Pale Moon for XP think of all this.
Where or what their wishes, problems, or intentions are.

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