Branding design contest discussions

[Moonchild]

On the other hand, there is other browser with the same Theme ( Moon-Lunascape )..and maybe will be good a complete rebranding?

Maybe you're thinking that it's new branding for Pale Moon? It's not -- it's a new browser to run alongside Pale Moon on the new platform.

[Moonchild]

I think anything related to "fox" is a bad idea.

Why is that? I think it would be appropriate for the name to be a nod to its heritage. I think something like "Flare" would be better than something like "Fang". These browsers have a goal to preserve technologies, and not giving up to start over on something different. Why not have the name reflect that?

Simple reason is that *something*fox has been done plenty of times already for browsers that are not, in any way, forks of Mozilla, and just rebuilds of RTM browser code. I don't want to give the false impression here it's a close-RTM rebuild and as such will be following Firefox's path (into servo).

[dark_moon]

In my opinion it would be a bad idea to use another name then Pale Moon.
It take a long time people heard about a new browser, so why not just use Pale Moon?

A name change would be negative in my opinion

[CharmCityCrab]

A name change would be negative in my opinion

This is not a name change.

There will be two browsers existing and continuing to be developed into the future simultaneously:

1. Pale Moon, continuing with it's aesthetics, user interface, current users, and any new users who find it and think it suits them. This is for users who liked what they perceive as Firefox's original direction and want it carried forward. It will continue to be supported and developed as usual into the future.

2. The new separate browser (That this contest involves naming and creating a logo for aka branding), which will appeal primarily to people who enjoy Firefox as it is *today* (More or less), that will maintain XUL add-on compatibility and a XUL platform backend and the Gecko webengine rather than switching to Servo and Quantum like Firefox. There are other reasons for this browser, primarily the idea of maintaining an independent XUL platform that continues development, but as a user you don't need to necessarily figure out what that means if you don't get it (It's a behind the curtain thing).

So, two browsers, both go forward. You can use one, you can use both, you can use neither- it's totally up to you.

And, as a bonus, there is potential that if the new browser is successful, it can help Pale Moon and vice-versa, because they might ultimately share one platform code (Backend- a lot of the the important stuff you don't see as a user, generally) and get many more developers who attracted to working on it because they are attracted to one browser or the other (Instead of just the developers who are attracted to one browser). It's possible in the future that this platform code, since it's opensource, may also be used for things like email and music programs and office programs and whatever, which also could have developers help code the platform directly, or which would at least have to publish the code they develop (Open-source), some of which may help Pale Moon and the new browser. Both browsers would maintain their visions because their *application* code, the stuff that controls what you see, would remain totally separate. At the beginning, even the platform codes will be separate.

But all that's into the future.

For now, all you really need to know are that there are two separate browsers and that Pale Moon remains Pale Moon. This naming/design/branding contest is for a new browser.

[GreenGeek]

CCCrab, I think you missed dark-moon's point - name recognition. But maybe more important than name would be something in common in the user agent string that website developers could program detection for.

[New Tobin Paradigm]

On the contrary, GreenGeek, CharmCityCrab totally gets it.. DarkMoon's facts are uncoordinated as are yours.

The two applications would be as mutually exclusive as Pale Moon and Firefox Australis are at this moment they can't both be called "Pale Moon" nor can there only be one. Reread CharmCityCrab's post and Moonchild's and my posts on the matter. Educate yourselves and expand your scope and horizons.. Or don't.. But do not keep clouding the issue with these misconceptions.

As for all these (.*)(moon|fox|scape|zilla)(.*) names as well as compound names that are boring and predictable as hell.. I personally would expect greater creativity from you all..

- ANYWAY -

My intended entry into this contest is as follows.. Theia or Orpheus

Theia was named for the titaness Theia, who in Greek mythology was the mother of Selene, the goddess of the moon; that echoes the planet Theia's collision with the early Earth, theorized to have created the Moon.

An alternative name, Orpheus, is also popular.

It not only has some subtle aspects but also follows the Greek/Roman God naming scheme kick I been on for a while. See: Phoebus and Artemis

Wordmark and color scheme would be fairly easy but I have to think creatively for a logo/symbol.

[GreenGeek]

Off-topic:
Put me on ignore, and stop acting like you're in charge. You should not be allowed to run amok and be abusive on this forum.

Actually your example confirms what I said - Pale Moon can represent itself as Firefox right now, so no reason the new one shouldn't be the same. So as a side benefit to increase name recognition rather than water it down, the new one could be called Pale Moon II, or New Moon or something related. But I get that Moonchild prefers separate branding.

[New Tobin Paradigm]

Off-topic:
If my posts are abusive surely the moderation staff can make that determination so feel free to flag any of my posts to them. I have been known to occasionally skirt that line. Though, I defy you to point out a post in these recent threads that was as such. I have actually been taking great care not to overtly offend people but just state the facts or point out incorrect interpretations when they go too far.

I am quite aware that half this community flat out doesn't like or even hates me.. I am coming to terms with that but it isn't going to stop me from continuing my work. They will have to come to their own terms with their hate when they see me hanging around as much as I have to become accustom to my own unpopularity.

I am not in charge of anything anymore.. I stepped down, remember.. I am also not acting like I still am as I don't need to be in charge to contribute to this community or project.. If that is the conclusion you have reached then alter your thinking.

[badnick]

Only now I cleared myself, it's about 2 browsers. As long as PM can be improved in terms of speed and reliability I don't see the purpose of existence for two browsers. I think the UI is not so important..if you want an Australis like theme you can have it. In fact I consider the PM UI more user friendly than Firefox UI.

[New Tobin Paradigm]

It isn't about the Australis Style but the Australis Technology.. Pale Moon will never have the Australis Technology.. Most Pale Moon users do not want it.. I know I don't. However, the new Browser will have it and for some it is desirable. I can understand why even if I don't agree with it.. Both applications will be suited to their target use cases and userbases... Get that through your heads.. It doesn't matter if you don't think it is important.. Because many others potentially don't think what Pale Moon provides is important and they want something akin to today's Firefox which is Firefox Australis.

It is about choice and diversity.. Of course the bulk of the work is in the Platform not the Application code and the potential for a Unified XUL Platform is as compelling today as it was back when Mozilla was developing it as such.. Either way Pale Moon will be maintaining a platform but it would be as great of a waste of potential for it ONLY to be used with the Pale Moon application and not anything else as it was originally intended.

Perhaps, people don't realize what they have until it is gone and it would be a great shame if it was lost or if the Platform code was co-oped solely for Pale Moon application and nothing else.. Mozilla all but did this and we know how well that worked out.

If you guys can't understand this then please head elsewhere in the community and leave it to those who can see beyond their own keyboard. In any event, Pale Moon will stay Pale Moon.. Ignore everything else if it offends your delicate sensibilities.

[badnick]

It isn't about the Australis style but the Australis Technology.. Pale Moon will never have the Australis Technology.. However, the new Browser will.. Both will be suited to their target use cases and userbases... Get that through your heads.. It doesn't matter if you don't think it is important.. Because many others potentially don't think what Pale Moon provides is important and they want something akin to today's Firefox which is Firefox Australis.

It is about choice and diversity.. Of course the bulk of the work is in the Platform not the Application code and the potential for a Unified XUL Platform is compelling.. Either way Pale Moon will be maintaining a platform but it would be as great of a waste of potential for it ONLY to be used with the Pale Moon application and not anything else as it was originally intended.

Perhaps, people don't realize what they had until it is gone and it would be a great shame if it was lost or if the Platform code was co-oped solely for Pale Moon and nothing else.. Mozilla all but did this and we know how well that worked out.

If you guys can't understand this then please head elsewhere in the community and leave it to those who can see beyond their own keyboard.

Yes of course it's yours decision, no matter what I say. But actually Firefox is a wrong example, Fx 50/51/52/53 is slower than itself (old versions e.g Fx 17.0.x) .I proved that and I filed a "bug" with that (Bug 1343490). Anybody can check this on clean profiles. That's one of the reason I switched to PM.

[Lunix]

I'm not sure if we're supposed to suggest names here or in the other thread because I don't have a logo to go with it. Please move my post if you want to, Moonchild.

"Xultan" is the name I'm throwing into the hat. Pronounced "Zultan" a la "sultan." The root of the name of course comes from XUL. It's unique among browsers and sounds like something of power and quality.

If anybody likes the name feel free to design a logo for it. I'm not an artist.

[CharmCityCrab]

I had a concept that someone is free to draw up art for (It's beyond my ability to do well), enter the contest with, and claim the prize money for (if applicable).

The browser is called "Time Explorer", "Timescape", or, as a third alternative, "Tempus Fugit" ("Time Flies" in Latin).

The image is a huge whirling tornado with various types of analog and digital clocks that look ancient, modern, and futuristic flying by- with Roman numerals, the number system we use to today, and then indecipherable alien symbols meant to be numbers. At the bottom of the icon is the front of a wooden sailing ship with the back of a robed figure with his hood up manning an old fashioned wooden steering wheel.

Wholly original but yet with a very subtle homage to Netscape Navigator in there.

Color scheme for the browser, when opened, would be a dark white that shades towards gray with grained wooden brown accents.

[Luna Tic]

I know it is about naming the new browser. However, I think this could be considered:
Old browser: Pale Moon Classic
New browser: Pale Moon Neo or Pale Moon Leap (inspired by the "giant leap for mankind" on the Moon)

[Rkivdd]

I downloaded a font from Fontspring for free with the Fontspring Desktop License, which allows me to use it for commercial graphics. Would it be okay if I use that font in my logo?

[New Tobin Paradigm]

The New/Additional Browser is not gonna be Pale Moon why do you want to apply Pale Moon's name and branding to it.. Why do half of you think there is gonna be some replacement effort going on? Are you all really that thick?

You know, maybe this is why Mozilla and every other project has stopped listening to their community.. because the community refuses to read or listen to what the project has to say. Taking everything hard working people do for granted and doing nothing but expounding in irrelevant discourse that has no congruity with what is being discussed. Maybe you ALL of you are responsible for this situation we are all in. You created it now take responsibility for it and open your eyes and minds and hush up for a minute so that you can take in some input and learn.

I am personally getting extremely fed up trying to give 100% of my self for nearly 3 years now at a monetary cost to my self to people who vilify me and refuse to take the 5 minutes to actually comprehend simple concepts or follow simple instructions let alone read anything that has been said. Maybe, we all should just take our baseball and go home and cast you all adrift in your Chromium world you have created for yourselves.

Others and ourselves would ask: "If you are so fed up why do you continue" and all of us are simply forced to answer to our selves and others "because no one else will" but I am beginning to question the validity of that answer.

You guys need to smarten up.. Seriously, it is getting old guys.

[Luna Tic]

The Browser is not gonna be Pale Moon why do you want to apply Pale Moon's name and branding to it..

It is going to be Pale Moon if it is called Pale Moon. It is just a name. But a name with a good solid reputation for quality. That is very valuable, reputation does not magically appear overnight.

Are you all really that thick?

Maybe. But if your photo is any indication, you are several orders of magnitude thicker than I am. Maybe lay off the ad hominems and more importatly the buckets of carbs. Diabetes is a bitch, and Karma is its stripper name.

You know, maybe this is why Mozilla and every other project has stopped listening to their community.. because the community refuses to read or listen to what the project has to say. Maybe you ALL of you are responsible for this situation we are all in. You created it now take responsibility for it

Yes, I personally destroyed mozilla. It was really hard, but was worth all the effort. Feels good, bro.

Anyways, who took the jelly from your donut? Why so serious about a name?

[New Tobin Paradigm]

Is that your rebuttal? Attacking my appearance instead of the substance of my argument/response..

Well to further extend your issue with my appearance.. Were you aware that this specific fat ass, as you continuously implied but not directly stated as such, is directly or at least partly responsible for much of what you take for granted?

See that Add-ons SIte over there.. Yeah, I created it.. From scratch.. Like a delicious bowl of pasta with a cream sauce and herbs. Maybe, the Pale Moon Cross Reference site which is like re-hydrating some dried ingredients to make something that does the job.. Or the Pale Moon Linux website which just came back on the line which used Add-ons Site left overs. Or how about the Pale Moon Developer Wiki which isn't really done cooking yet.

OH and Pale Moon 27.. The Application Specific Code on the Tycho Platform? Kinda like working a tough piece of meat into a recipe that wasn't designed specifically for it and it coming out tender and juicy. Albeit prepping the meat wasn't the whole story but one of the most important components while others fine tuned the dish before serving..

As for the jelly doughnut you metaphorically mentioned.. It wasn't that it was my doughnut but it was all the doughnuts that I either made or helped make for everyone else that many just took and threw on the ground and stepped all over while judging my appearance.

So thank you for that. Be sure to fill out a customer survey on your way out the door as soon as the moderators take a gander at your response above.

[khronosschoty]

I know it is about naming the new browser. However, I think this could be considered:
Old browser: Pale Moon Classic
New browser: Pale Moon Neo or Pale Moon Leap (inspired by the "giant leap for mankind" on the Moon)

I fail to understand why you would want to confuse people, by having two browsers with the name pale moon; when they have different goals / agenda's; and one is not replacing the other.

[CharmCityCrab]

It is going to be Pale Moon if it is called Pale Moon. It is just a name. But a name with a good solid reputation for quality. That is very valuable, reputation does not magically appear overnight.

Here are some of the issues with that:

1. Many of us are extremely attached to what we can achieve starting from the current Pale Moon interface by adding themes and using some of the options already built in. This new browser will not likely be able to achieve those UI options, because it's coming from where Firefox is now, the browser some people here left *as far back as 2009* and that some here left as soon as they adopted their Australis UI years later. That's fine while they exist side by side, as is the plan. People can use the browser that best fits their preferences- or use their favorite as a primary browser and their second favorite as a backup for select tasks.

However, if they were to take the Pale Moon name, as you suggest, and give it to the new browser, we'd lose the existing browser and UI design, which is not what the existing userbase or the people in charge want, by and large. We are supportive of this new browser effort because we believe in user choice in general, and also feel like, as a bonus, a XUL platform that has extra devs coming in who may be interested in the new browser and not Pale Moon will ultimately help keep Pale Moon current on it's "backend" (platform code) if they wind up using the same platform, which seems likely if it's successful. If the new browser takes off in a way Pale Moon hasn't, and they ultimately adopt the same platform code and web rendering engines, it'll also allow PM to, with some user-agent string adjustments, be compatible with websites that might target the new more popular browser.

Now, that's a lot of "if"s, but no one knows what can be done unless someone tries to do it.

Anyway, that supportiveness would likely go out the window if it were an effort to replace what we have now with what Firefox is now under the Pale Moon name. Fortunately, it's not- our current browser continues, and there's another browser, and they each have their own user interfaces and application codes and visions and focuses. But some behind the scenes stuff may go on that will benefit PM users and new browser users alike because of the success of both browsers.

2. You are correct that Pale Moon's name has some brand recognition that is important in some ways. This is why I pushed to keep the Pale Moon name for the browser when the Tycho project that updated the platform code was proposed and it seemed briefly like there was some slight possibility that it might wind up being given a different name. It had the same application code (Mostly) with the same or almost identical UI and was correctly just an update to Pale Moon. If we wound up using the new browser's platform code (back in) with Pale Moon, but kept the Pale Moon UI and application code, I'd still say call this browser Pale Moon for any number of reasons.

*However*, Pale Moon means certain things to certain people. Some of those things are negative to the Firefox userbase of today, part of which associates Pale Moon with an old UI they don't like, not keeping up with various other changes they like, not being compatible with their Australis-era XUL add-ons, etc.. So, to brand a new browser that forks from Firefox's application code and platform code *today* could scare off happy current Firefox users who don't like that some of their applications won't work on Firefox come this fall and other changes that are coming. Pale Moon's name would communicate things to them that they'd see as negative that just won't be true of the new browser.

So, it is important that the name and design of this new browser stress that is a fresh new browser that is meant to appeal to today's Firefox audience and allow them to continue to use their favorite XUL add-ons, among other things, while continuing to be updated for security and ability to render the modern web, among other things. It should be something completely different.

Not only does a different name for what will genuinely be a different browser help sell it to this new browser's target audience (Which is somewhat different from Pale Moon's, albeit with a bit of overlap as well), but it also gives it a different branding and identity that it can build up in it's own right that might attract people. There are probably folks who'll choose a browser for a name and a logo as well as look and feel when opened, even more than for what it can actually do. This different brand will attract (hopefully, in theory) people who might not like the Pale Moon name and logo and look, but might like whatever cool things are created for the new browser.

Eventually, we could have Pale Moon sort of competing against this new browser. People could sit around in forums, on social media, and in their living rooms, and argue which is better. There will be some genuine differences that extend well beyond (but include) aesthetics, so those arguments will be valid each way (Although of course probably mostly subjective matters of preference). However, the cool secret that those in the know will know is that if all goes according to the preliminary hopes and plans, work done on each browser will benefit the other, and each browser's popularity will benefit the ability of the other to have websites feed it web pages that work.

In other words, we get two genuinely separate browsers that can each appeal to segments of the market that the other can't, and offer different experiences, but behind the scenes the development done for each browser, any monetary donations to either browser, and the growing market-share of each browser, will benefit both browsers, because they will eventually share some behind the scenes code while presenting completely different stuff upfront to the user that visits with each browser's independent vision.

This is potentially a really, really good idea. It might not work, but it's worth a try IMO, because of the future it may bring us. The alternative of just going forward with only Pale Moon worries me because we are not getting enough developers working on it or marketshare to ensure it's compatibility with the modern web, and the modern web feeding it the correct web pages, indefinitely, with no XUL-based platform to rebase it on once Mozilla exists the XUL thing.

By creating a browser with very different branding to collect the people interested in going forward from approximately where Firefox is right now, who'll be looking for an alternative similar to what they were doing the day before, the day after all their XUL extensions break this fall, where those users can just plug everything into this new browser that they have no preconceived notions about that keeps up the spirit of *their* Firefox, which is different from the Pale Moon version of the spirit of Firefox (Which dates from an older time and builds from there to keep secure and current), it may save Pale Moon as we know it, as well as give a lot of people who use Firefox now what they want. Everyone wins.