Is a cooperation between Pale Moon and SeaMonkey feasible?

[Sun-Glasses]

Hello everyone,

in case you have noticed there are some problems the SeaMonkey and Thunderbird projects are currently facing due to the Mozilla-driven decision to deprecate XUL. Since the Pale Moon project is in need for new developers and since the easiest way out for the SeaMonkey team is to base their browser on Goanna, I wonder if some kind of cooperation between the SeaMonkey project and the Pale Moon project could evolve. It would be a win-win situation for all participants in this case. Would it be possible for Moonchild to get in touch with the people at the SeaMonkey council or was any kind of cooperation already refused at some point in the past? This move would really help both projects and would be the solution for major problems at both sides.
In case you wonder, a SeaMonkey 2.35 build based on Goanna has already been successfully compiled: https://github.com/libertyernie/marine
Would be great to hear some other opinions on the matter.

Cheers
Sun-Glasses

[New Tobin Paradigm]

I read your thread on Mozillazine.. My assessment is, all though it would be really nice to get the comm-central guys to come together with all of us and work on a grand future along the lines of the original Mozilla ideal it isn't going to happen. There is too much apathy and latent fear in comm-central to want to go out into untested waters and try new things.

This is largely due to the internal politics and treatment projects now residing in comm-central have received since they were kicked out of mozilla-central some 8 years ago. As someone who has been a direct observer and insider to those events for almost all of that time I know the toll it has taken and despite my personal efforts of good will I don't see this changing. Half of the SeaMonkey Project seem willing but the other half and most influential part of the Council seem apathetic at best and at worst just want it to fade away quietly into the night. As for Thunderbird.. Their project is in total anarchy and has been since "Mozilla Messaging" fell apart.

The fact is, while some see the end of the status quo is near many are still in denial or think they can just continue regardless as-is in some undefined way while the others can't be bothered to care anymore. Going the route of just another year of life support on ESR52 is their only recourse for the moment but there is no plan afterward. They are very much making it up as deadlines come and go with no plan and haven't had a plan for years.

I tried to warn them.. I tried for years.. Tried to do my best to get them all to change course and at least plan for eventualities.. There are some that listened but they don't have near the power and influence to sway the rest. Their time is, in my opinion, already at an end and they have only them selves to blame. Why do you think I came to do things at the Pale Moon project? Because it was the only real way forward. Think about what has happened here in those years, how the project has grown while the likes of comm-central have diminished. If I had been given half the chance there that I was given here.. Maybe.. But that is how it is and like you... People can't be forced into accepting reality or changing course away from destruction.

As for that repository.. Of course you can take a matching comm-central repository and build SeaMonkey off our backend.. There are some details that have to be worked out due to specific changes made for Pale Moon and company that don't take the suite into account and will become greater as time goes by for everything to fully work and I know what they are and have done this my self before because I have a fairly good understanding of comm-central and how it relates to the backend build system.

As an aside, any attempts to cross post from Mozillazine to this forum is strictly forbidden and WILL end in disaster. Please refrain from doing it in the future.

[Sun-Glasses]

I read your thread on Mozillazine.. My assessment is, all though it would be really nice to get the comm-central guys to come together with all of us and work on a grand future along the lines of the original Mozilla ideal it isn't going to happen. There is too much apathy and latent fear in comm-central to want to go out into untested waters and try new things.

Yep, I see that. The SeaMonkey project really seems to lie dormant aside from a random Gecko rebase (SeaMonkey 2.46). Just makes me sad, I believe you feel the same.

This is largely due to the internal politics and treatment projects now residing in comm-central have received since they were kicked out of mozilla-central some 8 years ago. As someone who has been a direct observer and insider to those events for almost all of that time I know the toll it has taken and despite my personal efforts of good will I don't see this changing. Half of the SeaMonkey Project seem willing but the other half and most influential part of the Council seem apathetic at best and at worst just want it to fade away quietly into the night. As for Thunderbird.. Their project is in total anarchy and has been since "Mozilla Messaging" fell apart.

Leaving their users behind in the dust without any perspective is deceptive of the SeaMonkey council if you ask me. And Thunderbird will also face severe problems after the ESR 52 cycle, but so do Pale Moon and FossaMail once XUL is phased out. What if you need another rebase? Will that be possible? That's not meant as trolling, I'm really interested in your (and Moonchild's of course) view on the matter.

The fact is, while some see the end of the status quo is near many are still in denial or think they can just continue regardless as-is in some undefined way while the others can't be bothered to care anymore. Going the route of just another year of life support on ESR52 is their only recourse for the moment but there is no plan afterward. They are very much making it up as deadlines come and go with no plan and haven't had a plan for years.

I wonder what their plan is after 52 ESR is as well. But as you put it, there does not seem to be a plan at all.

I tried to warn them.. I tried for years.. Tried to do my best to get them all to change course and at least plan for eventualities.. There are some that listened but they don't have near the power and influence to sway the rest. Their time is, in my opinion, already at an end and they have only them selves to blame. Why do you think I came to do things at the Pale Moon project? Because it was the only real way forward. Think about what has happened here in those years, how the project has grown while the likes of comm-central have diminished. If I had been given half the chance there that I was given here.. Maybe.. But that is how it is and like you... People can't be forced into accepting reality or changing course away from destruction.

Wait, what am I destroying? All proposals I made here were constructive I think. The rebase question is an issue which also affects Pale Moon. It would be easier together, but as I read in your statement there won't be a chance for that. Just sad.

[deckard]

In this case you are not destroying anything. I think that the proposals you made here were constructive. I also think that one might agree with them.
I understand that Matt tried to warn them (meaning Seamonkey Council and Mozilla Messaging people when saying them)...
People can't be forced into accepting reality of a bad situation within those companies.
People can't be forced into changing course away from destruction of those two "societies".

[New Tobin Paradigm]

Sigh.. This is likely the last post I will make in this thread because it is going to end up like all the rest.

Do you not get that a rebase is impossible because every single core technology that makes a mozilla-style application a mozilla-style application is going away?

It is Mozilla's intention to deprecate, cripple, and remove everything... That includes Gecko. It includes XUL, XBL, XPCOM, the last bits of XPFE, about the only thing that isn't planned to die is SpiderMonkey the javascript engine and hell I wouldn't be surprised if that gets replaced with V8 or some other half-assed modern creation by Mozilla.

There will be nothing left in order to base anything on. Not if it ever intends to be anything like the rich technologies that have evolved for the past 19 years.

It is a FACT that unless someone else does anything, which isn't likely, this will be the only project.. The only place classical Mozilla technologies will continue to evolve and indeed thrive. This is simply because as Mozilla progresses to their intended future they are categorically and deliberately destroying technology to a point of not being useful at the point is is removed and replaced. It would totally be one thing if they simply flipped a switch and used a new codebase and set of technologies but they aren't. They are compromising every classical technology.. rewriting it into oblivion to somehow justify replacing it when it has been so corrupted that it no longer serves a purpose.

Rust, Servo, Positron, WebExtensions, Firefox.html etc are the replacements and totally incompatible and mutually exclusive to the technologies WE want to continue having and developing.

We are the future and perhaps present keepers of the mozilla legacy that THEY have forsaken and chosen to destroy piece by piece. We don't want to get a half-assed crippled platform in the future when we have everything we need in place to continue independent development and evolution. THAT is why the one time rebase happened with Tycho. It was the last STABLE codebase that had every piece of technology we require and employ.

If you can't understand or grasp that then I cannot help you and any further attempts are as futile as the projects on comm-central have already become.

[half-moon]

I think I'll just put this link here....

https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=14544

[JustOff]

It seems to me that SeaMonkey is already abandoned, the core developers are gone and the rest hardly cope even with the current platform update. It's sad, but I see no future there thus no benefit from possible cooperation can be expected.

[Moonchild]

To be honest, I don't think the SeaMonkey Council is going to be capable of keeping up with the momentum we've been building the last couple of months either -- and they are likely still hung up on having Mozilla infra at their disposal for how long that will last.

If they actually want a future, then they should make the decision to cut their ties with Mozilla first and foremost. While they are still dangling from that corporation as a half-forgotten experiment, they are not going to be able to move forward. Until that is done I see no reason to put any effort forward to start a cooperation and fit it somehow into my schedule.

[JodyThornton]

Wow! I thought MoonMonkey might've been a good idea. I guess it doesn't matter because the thread over at MozillaZine was locked right after Matt A Tobin posted. What did he say that was so bad? I mean, I've done way worse here... lol

[New Tobin Paradigm]

Discussion there and here on that issue is at an end. This thread should be locked as well. Least we have a skirting situation like this not devolve into a shitstorm for once.. We should be thankful and move on to more important topics.

[JodyThornton]

I wasn't going to say anything more.