Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by JodyThornton » 2017-01-10, 11:52

dark_moon wrote:And no, netflix doesnt need to run. Its only a hype
Only a hype???? Are you for real? That is the most silly statement I've ever read, and it's alienating to newcomers seeking out this browser. I also said I don't use Netflix, but to deny how quickly it's taking over TV is foolish. I'm not arguing your views on DRM, but Netflix should be a "must work" site. Wow! I am just dumbfounded.

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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by kizo07 » 2017-01-10, 13:35

I'm not sure if I'm on right place, but since I can see that this 'touching my wonders'...maybe some advice?
I intend to buy something for my little nephew as a birthday gift. I doubt between 'War and Peace', 'The 3 Musketeers' and 'Fifty Shades of Grey' ? ...And which format I should chose? Just download as a Pdf?...or as a audio book? ...or maybe as a movie?

Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thank you very much in advance and I will be sure to rate highly! If additional information is needed please let me know. Thanks again!

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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by eskaton » 2017-01-10, 13:53

I believe this is still the case, but since IE (and maybe Edge now?) are the only browsers able to pull 1080 from Netflix, that's what I use.

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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by Fedor2 » 2017-01-10, 15:14

JodyThornton wrote:I'm not arguing your views on DRM, but Netflix should be a "must work" site.
All right, lets assume this is such an important site without alternative ever. For this it must work no doubt. But it cuts both ways, when it becomes a monopoly and ... think further.

I offered the way to solve with not playing sites.
If a site that very important for you does not work properly, try do some effort for this. Nevermind if you are not skilled users, chip in, hire someone skilled to develop for you some addon or else. But do not strain the browser developer for this. Pale Moon browser are developed for many many sites, not just for few ones.

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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by back2themoon » 2017-01-10, 15:24

If I were a NetFlix user, I'd cancel my subscription citing the exact reasons. My guess is that it won't take too many such cancellations for Netflix to either provide a solution or a clear answer. In the meanwhile, I'm sure most people can find other sources for their TV appetite.
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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2017-01-10, 17:35

Not that this netflix thing is mostly off-topic but netflix doesn't care about a few free thinking users who want choice. Here is why: Netflix is viewable on the major browsers but these days that hardly is important.. Mobile devices, set top boxes, and games consoles as well as smart TVs are where their biggest consumers are projected to be coming from.

Because watching netflix on a computer at a desk is never going to be as popular as watching on your tablet or on a big screen in your living room. People's habits are hard to change and the TV centric lifestyle is still and will be very much a thing for a long time.
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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by JodyThornton » 2017-01-11, 00:03

Matt A Tobin wrote:Not that this netflix thing is mostly off-topic but netflix doesn't care about a few free thinking users who want choice. Here is why: Netflix is viewable on the major browsers but these days that hardly is important.. Mobile devices, set top boxes, and games consoles as well as smart TVs are where their biggest consumers are projected to be coming from.
That is actually bang on. Most users of Netflix are mobile/tablet/media box users. :)

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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by Tar_Ni » 2017-01-11, 02:08

JodyThornton wrote:
Matt A Tobin wrote:Not that this netflix thing is mostly off-topic but netflix doesn't care about a few free thinking users who want choice. Here is why: Netflix is viewable on the major browsers but these days that hardly is important.. Mobile devices, set top boxes, and games consoles as well as smart TVs are where their biggest consumers are projected to be coming from.
That is actually bang on. Most users of Netflix are mobile/tablet/media box users. :)
Not necesserely. Some people - especially students - don't have a TV and/or are watching netflix on their laptops. This is not at all uncommon. We should just admit that Pale Moon falls short in this area and stop pretending that Netflix, and it's users, will adapt to us. They won't.

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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by JodyThornton » 2017-01-11, 03:18

Tar_Ni wrote:
JodyThornton wrote:
Matt A Tobin wrote:Not that this netflix thing is mostly off-topic but netflix doesn't care about a few free thinking users who want choice. Here is why: Netflix is viewable on the major browsers but these days that hardly is important.. Mobile devices, set top boxes, and games consoles as well as smart TVs are where their biggest consumers are projected to be coming from.
That is actually bang on. Most users of Netflix are mobile/tablet/media box users. :)
Not necesserely. Some people - especially students - don't have a TV and/or are watching netflix on their laptops. This is not at all uncommon. We should just admit that Pale Moon falls short in this area and stop pretending that Netflix, and it's users, will adapt to us. They won't.
I should have said many (not most Netflix users), but especially in North America. And I doubt the big companies will make any move. Though in another thread, it appeared that there was someone from Netflix who would speak to Moonchild.

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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by Moonchild » 2017-01-11, 11:03

As long as Netflix uses what their majority of consumers use to watch it (Silverlight), it will work fine in Pale Moon.
They use Silverlight for DRM. There are other solutions in-browser for DRM possible as well that don't require a "black-box" decryption module that nobody seems willing to look at.

I'm a consumer of Netflix too, but I'd sooner discontinue my subscription than letting unknown on-the-fly-downloaded binaries be hooked into my browser "by design".
The moment they stop using Silverlight or another accessible, plugin-based solution is the moment they lose me as a customer.
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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by Moonchild » 2017-01-11, 11:09

JodyThornton wrote:Though in another thread, it appeared that there was someone from Netflix who would speak to Moonchild.
Absolutely not confirmed.

Someone on the forum claimed that someone from Netflix would be willing to open a communications channel. I then spent some time writing a detailed e-mail to the contact provided with 0 response. Then the same person on the forum offered a different point of contact, claiming the issue was handed over to them, instead, who for some reason doesn't have my contact details to get in touch directly...? Despite my e-mail?
Suspect at least and I'm not going to spam netflix staff with e-mails just because someone knows how to extract details through LinkedIn or what not.
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Richvideo

Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by Richvideo » 2017-01-11, 13:45

Moonchild wrote:
JodyThornton wrote:Though in another thread, it appeared that there was someone from Netflix who would speak to Moonchild.
Absolutely not confirmed.

Someone on the forum claimed that someone from Netflix would be willing to open a communications channel. I then spent some time writing a detailed e-mail to the contact provided with 0 response. Then the same person on the forum offered a different point of contact, claiming the issue was handed over to them, instead, who for some reason doesn't have my contact details to get in touch directly...? Despite my e-mail?
Suspect at least and I'm not going to spam netflix staff with e-mails just because someone knows how to extract details through LinkedIn or what not.
So you are basically calling me a liar, I clearly stated in the the other thread how this played out

1-I never had your email to give to them, you never offered it to me which would have made the communication task with Netflix easier..Someone in the forum just showed me where to find it this week...Maybe I should have asked for it right away so that is my fault

2-You sent one email to the chief product manager and yes he did not respond for whatever reason, I had the same experience with him so I nicely kept at it with respectful emails to him and that is when he finally put me in touch with the guy in charge of the Netflix UI. Sam Pan

3- For some unknown reason you found this suspect and I offered to forward you the mail if you wanted to confirm that it actually came from Netflix --Sam Pan gave you his phone number so it would be real easy to confirm my conversation with him by calling him wouldn't it?

4- I nicely asked Sam if he could check with Neil Hunt to see if he could forward the email that you previously sent.Sam responded by saying "Can you just ask him to reach out to me directly? I agree that working with you as the middle man doesn't help. I want to work directly with him" I assume that he did not want to bother his boss with this since his boss passed the project over to him which is understandable.

This is where things ended because of just one lost email and the refusal to copy and paste the info from the first email and forward it off to the best person at Netflix to speak to about recognition of the Pale Moon browser so you don't have to find workarounds when Netflix issues arise that stem from their end.

Look if you send the email I will check in with Sam to make sure he got it if you don't hear back from him right away, again I am sure that his help has some limits, I assume he has multiple projects to work on over there.

Another idea, how about you send me the detailed email you sent Neil and I will forward it to Sam and I will provide him with your email to continue the conversation with you now that I have your direct email?
Last edited by Richvideo on 2017-01-11, 14:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by Richvideo » 2017-01-11, 14:43

JodyThornton wrote:
Matt A Tobin wrote:Not that this netflix thing is mostly off-topic but netflix doesn't care about a few free thinking users who want choice. Here is why: Netflix is viewable on the major browsers but these days that hardly is important.. Mobile devices, set top boxes, and games consoles as well as smart TVs are where their biggest consumers are projected to be coming from.
That is actually bang on. Most users of Netflix are mobile/tablet/media box users. :)
I never had an issue with video playback on Netflix the issue at this time is the UI being broken in PM(MC says the problem stems from them)-
Can't add movies to list or rearrange list order using the drag and drop interface

I have been working professionally in video production for 30 years so often I am sitting at my desktop doing some video editing and it is just easier for me to open Pale Moon on my PC to add movies to my list or rearrange the list order than doing it on a phone or doing it on my Roku. I imagine that Netflix users that work on laptops often feel the same way.

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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by kizo07 » 2017-01-11, 15:12

Maybe I'm a bit tired and probably I missed a point or two, but can't see that some here moved/moving forward at all.
I could already taken a flight to California, talked with people there and get back to Europe.
@Richvideo
Why you just don't do as 'CharmCityCrab' asked you nicely?
'I'd be willing to forward MoonChild's email address to the Netflix guy if you can provide me the Netflix guy's email address. I can email the guy and then he can email MC, and that should make everyone happy, right?'

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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by Richvideo » 2017-01-11, 16:01

kizo07 wrote:Maybe I'm a bit tired and probably I missed a point or two, but can't see that some here moved/moving forward at all.
I could already taken a flight to California, talked with people there and get back to Europe.
@Richvideo
Why you just don't do as 'CharmCityCrab' asked you nicely?
'I'd be willing to forward MoonChild's email address to the Netflix guy if you can provide me the Netflix guy's email address. I can email the guy and then he can email MC, and that should make everyone happy, right?'
Thank you for pointing out that post from CharmCityCrab I missed it.

Think about it how does CharmCityCrab getting involved simplify things. Sam Pan clearly stated that he would rather not have a relayed conversation with a middleman do you think that adding another person into the mix is going to make Sam more willing to work with us.
Sam made a simple request to have MC contact him directly and he will try to help.I am not the one making this hard or complicated.
If I have to contact him again I am going to have to explain to Sam that MC will not contact you first because he seems insulted that Neil Hunt did not respond to him and unless you find that email that MC sent him he will not be contacting anyone, how do you think that's going to play over at Netflix?

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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by rabnbeinn » 2017-01-11, 16:15

Looks to me like we have reached a stalemate. I am a netflix user and I for one appreciate what you (Richvideo) have been trying to do, being the middleman is never easy.

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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by Moonchild » 2017-01-11, 16:35

Rich. It's not just one e-mail. You have obviously no idea how often and in which ways I have already tried to reach out to netflix and netflix management before. Yes, that includes support channels, e-mails and even a written letter to their HQ by post.
If you have a communications channel open, you should just forward my address to them if they somehow can't keep track of it when I sent them direct e-mails.

Instead of going on about how I apparently call anyone a liar when all I'm just NOT willing to do is harass anyone with random e-mails which will absolutely not help our position with netflix either, you could be more constructive and actually connect us directly. I'll be waiting for an e-mail from this "Sam" person.
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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by Richvideo » 2017-01-11, 17:00

Moonchild wrote:Rich. It's not just one e-mail. You have obviously no idea how often and in which ways I have already tried to reach out to netflix and netflix management before. Yes, that includes support channels, e-mails and even a written letter to their HQ by post.
If you have a communications channel open, you should just forward my address to them if they somehow can't keep track of it when I sent them direct e-mails.

Instead of going on about how I apparently call anyone a liar when all I'm just NOT willing to do is harass anyone with random e-mails which will absolutely not help our position with netflix either, you could be more constructive and actually connect us directly. I'll be waiting for an e-mail from this "Sam" person.
I had seen your previous postings about your lack of forward motion using regular channels that is why I tried and am still trying to help, in my professional life I found the quickest way to get results is to go to the head.My approach to getting a response from the actual people in charge of the Netflix UI seemed to get me in contact with the guy at the top who can help...If the guy in charge of the Netflix UI can 't help you I don't know what to say.

How is it harassment if the guy said outright to have you contact him directly and gave you his freaking phone number on top of it??
I explained why contacting Sam again to try to explain to him why you won't contact him first is counter-intuitive and just plain embarrassing...He reached his hand out to us/you and you are basically spitting in it IMHO.

kizo07

Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by kizo07 » 2017-01-11, 18:07

In My professional life I experienced many strange situations too and I think that Moonchild's logic and doing is valid.

Simple as is ;)

However, as a movie people says 'Everything will be ok in the end. If it's not ok, then it's not the end.'

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Re: Pale Moon is doomed to fail, here is why.

Post by Shadeclan » 2017-01-11, 18:51

Well, this thread sort of collapsed, didn't it? :oops:

I think this thread needs to be taken out of the development forum as it has nothing to do with development discussion. There's a forum for improvement requests and that's where this needs to be ... I guess.

As far as Moonchild having phone numbers given to him by people in the forum, well, he will do what he thinks best. As Sun-Glasses pointed out in the beginning and as everybody knows who is a regular visitor to this forum, Pale Moon is supported by a very small number of people. Moonchild has to decide where to spend his time most effectively - if he feels that the phone number is bogus and calling it is a waste of time, that's his prerogative.
Richvideo wrote: ... So you are basically calling me a liar, I clearly stated in the the other thread how this played out ...
You know, most of us who post here don't know anything about each other. Richvideo, you may be completely legit. Or you might be trying to set up some sort of scam - how is Moonchild supposed to know? I think the burden of proof lies with you and that's why Mr. Pan needs to do the calling, not the other way around. Netflix is a large corporation full of minions who can call Moonchild. Moonchild, on the other hand, probably doesn't even have a secretary ... unless you count his wife (assuming he's married and, of course, hetrosexual ... :-) )

As far as the original purpose of this post goes, I think that the title and length of the beginning pretty much gives away the intention of the poster. Discouragement is a very powerful tool and the thread's purpose was, obviously, to discourage and overwhelm Moonchild with all the things he would have to do to make Pale Moon be "as good" as other browsers. If Sun-Glasses' purpose really had been to post helpful suggestions, he would have entitled the thread "some helpful suggestions" in the proper forum, not " Die Pale Moon, Die!" in the development forum where Moonchild would be sure to see it.

I am grateful to Moonchild for every effort he makes to keep Pale Moon the very best browser that money can't buy. I'm grateful that he keeps going, even after all the complaining - not sure that's something that I would be able to do. I am grateful for the Pale Moon browser. As a heavy add-ons user, I'm grateful that most of my add-ons continue to work in Pale Moon. I think it's important to continue to be positive and hopeful about the future - why work on something if it's just going to fail, anyway? If Moonchild becomes convinced that Pale Moon is a failure, you can kiss this project goodbye.

We really need to be mindful of who's putting in the effort here.
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