The Future of Pale Moon

Talk about code development, features, specific bugs, enhancements, patches, and similar things.
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Moonchild
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Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by Moonchild » 2016-06-10, 07:22

Thehandyman1957 wrote:It will be interesting to see how many folks continue to use the older versions because of this.
People already do, and it's inevitable every time a major change occurs - it's just human nature to get into a comfort zone driven by habits and get resistant to change; but that doesn't mean we, at the developing edge of it, shouldn't move forward. People are always free to use whichever version they prefer, and I won't nag them about it -- but there won't be active support from the dev team. That doesn't mean the community can't provide support or that it's the end of the world -- but using an older version will inevitably, eventually, run into security and web compatibility issues.
Thehandyman1957 wrote:It is sad though that ReactOs will never have a place here. I get it, but it's sad.
I'm sorry to say but that is entirely in the court of the ReactOS development team. They've been too stagnant and despite my personal support for their efforts, and supporting their idea and ideals of creating that OS, their platform target is simply not something we can aim for. NT6 has been out for 10 years already, NT5 has been ended 2 years ago after a long run. Yet they are still aiming for NT5 - that's just not going to have much use except for obsolete/abandoned software and we simply can't keep focusing on NT5; if you understand why XP can't be supported any longer because of how it would hold back our development, then you should also understand that the very same reason has us unable to support ReactOS.

But if you think that's wrong, if you want to take the Pale Moon source and make a browser targeting these operating systems moving forward (or 9x for that matter if you think you can), then by all means, fork the tree! :)
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

Thehandyman1957

Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by Thehandyman1957 » 2016-06-10, 19:01

No I don't think it's wrong. I really do understand. And I totally understand the ReactOs issues.
It was just a long hope that they would be able to get things together enough to make something that
could fill the gap. Perhaps someday. But truthfully I think that because they are using NT5 that it
will make them obsolete before they ever get finished. Everybody is going to the newer stuff.

I'm happy where I am, and again, I am very thankful for all that you and the team has done. :thumbup:

You gave us a great browser that allowed us to continue to use what we love. I'm ok with that. ;)

Yes I'm sure eventually things on the net will start to go funky or just quit working on this version as time goes by.

Perhaps by then I will be ready the plunge to something newer.

Things happen. Life goes on. And change is inevitable. :geek:

yetanothergeek

Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by yetanothergeek » 2016-06-13, 05:08

Are there any plans to switch from gtk2 to gtk3? Firefox latest release (47) uses gtk3 by default and it has loads of problems, but in the long term gtk2 appears to be headed for the bit rot graveyard.

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Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by Moonchild » 2016-06-13, 08:06

yetanothergeek wrote:Are there any plans to switch from gtk2 to gtk3? Firefox latest release (47) uses gtk3 by default and it has loads of problems, but in the long term gtk2 appears to be headed for the bit rot graveyard.
There are no plans to switch to GTK3 at this time. Although the new code base will have more amenities to build properly for it, our target for now will remain GTK2.
The problem with any Mozilla-based application is that the rendering engine was built specifically on GTK2 and short of a full rewrite of large parts of code this can't just be ported across; as the mass of problems in Firefox displays. It will require a lot of effort from the Linux part of our community to make happen (not just our few dedicated developers we have now). I'm not sure if that's a realistic goal; not unless something essential changes and large numbers of Linux users start flocking to Pale Moon as their primary web browser.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

half-moon

Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by half-moon » 2016-06-13, 11:39

yetanothergeek wrote:...in the long term gtk2 appears to be headed for the bit rot graveyard.
Considering many common linux programs still rely on GTK2, I highly doubt this will happen.

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Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by Trippynet » 2016-06-13, 20:33

An interesting read, and thank you for the information. It's good to see that there's a strong plan for the future, and I welcome it. It is of course a bit sad to see XP support being dropped, but given the limited development resources available and age of the OS, I do fully understand and appreciate the reasons for doing this. My little old Mac Mini secondary machine (which does run XP, as Windows 7 doesn't work properly on it) is also showing its age now and probably is in need of being replaced soon anyway.

Still, I'm very much looking forward to the final release once it comes! Here's to many more successful years of the most customisable and user-focussed browser out there :thumbup:

Bitech

Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by Bitech » 2016-06-16, 11:05

If Windows XP support is getting dropped will builds optimized for Atom processors continue to be developed?

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Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by Moonchild » 2016-06-16, 11:09

Bitech wrote:If Windows XP support is getting dropped will builds optimized for Atom processors continue to be developed?
That is the plan. They will be optimized re-builds of the main-line version in that case.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

aleex5

Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by aleex5 » 2016-06-16, 11:22

Bitech wrote:If Windows XP support is getting dropped will builds optimized for Atom processors continue to be developed?
I wonder the same thing, my pc is not atom but I have installed the atom/xp 26 version and has a very good performance
only lacks html5
I find it unfair to leave aside entirely windows xp, my pc is old and I have no money for a new pc
I hope that at least xp/atom version continues to have support and new versions
Last edited by aleex5 on 2016-06-16, 11:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by Moonchild » 2016-06-16, 11:26

Atom optimized versions of the new milestone will not run on Windows XP!
Please understand that optimizing for a certain processor doesn't have anything to do with targeting a certain platform. This was done in the past because at the time, XP was still relatively common on small netbooks and the likes. This has seen a sharp decline, probably because those netbooks are getting old and being replaced or simply breaking down.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

aleex5

Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by aleex5 » 2016-06-16, 11:39

Moonchild wrote:Atom optimized versions of the new milestone will not run on Windows XP!
Please understand that optimizing for a certain processor doesn't have anything to do with targeting a certain platform. This was done in the past because at the time, XP was still relatively common on small netbooks and the likes. This has seen a sharp decline, probably because those netbooks are getting old and being replaced or simply breaking down.
I'll have to keep using pale moon 26 until you can buy a new pc, I understand your decision, because it was already abandoned xp
but it is a bit unfair to those who have no way to still buy a new pc

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Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by Moonchild » 2016-06-16, 11:59

aleex5 wrote:it is a bit unfair to those who have no way to still buy a new pc
And how fair do you think it would be to all other Pale Moon users that it can't develop to its full potential because of XP users?
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

aleex5

Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by aleex5 » 2016-06-16, 13:06

Moonchild wrote:
aleex5 wrote:it is a bit unfair to those who have no way to still buy a new pc
And how fair do you think it would be to all other Pale Moon users that it can't develop to its full potential because of XP users?
I believe that none of the 2 things is fair
a Doubt, will no longer will have more security updates pale moon 26?

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Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by Moonchild » 2016-06-16, 13:58

aleex5 wrote:I believe that none of the 2 things is fair
Exactly, so, a choice has to be made -- and in this case, the choice is to no longer support an OS that has been discontinued.
aleex5 wrote:a Doubt, will no longer will have more security updates pale moon 26?
There are no plans to turn v26 into a long-term support release at this time. We simply don't have the capacity to split our small team into the maintenance of multiple versions. If someone else is willing to take on this task, they are more than welcome to take the last release branch and update it for a contributed build by porting across security bugs from Mozilla.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

Thehandyman1957

Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by Thehandyman1957 » 2016-06-18, 22:35

Moonchild wrote:Atom optimized versions of the new milestone will not run on Windows XP!
Please understand that optimizing for a certain processor doesn't have anything to do with targeting a certain platform. This was done in the past because at the time, XP was still relatively common on small netbooks and the likes. This has seen a sharp decline, probably because those netbooks are getting old and being replaced or simply breaking down.
I am curious Moonchild, wasn't the Atom version of Pale Moon made specifically for those running the older netbooks using XP?

If XP is on the chopping block, why still go through the trouble to make an Atom version.

Seeing most of those smaller netbooks would not run W7 very well?

Perhaps for Linux? Just wondering. :think:

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Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by Moonchild » 2016-06-18, 22:50

Thehandyman1957 wrote:I am curious Moonchild, wasn't the Atom version of Pale Moon made specifically for those running the older netbooks using XP?
No, it's the other way around: The Atom version was made to retain XP compatibility because (at the time) Windows XP was still common. There are, however, many more modern Atom-based small laptops and netbooks (and possibly also tablets) that run Windows 7, 8 or 10 and that would benefit from this optimization. We do, however, plan to make this more a build-time optimization than actually maintaining a separate code base (like we do currently).

In the end we'll have to look how it all pans out. If practically speaking, the Atom version doesn't have significant advantages (which will have to be examined in practice since we are also switching compiler, which is like touching every line of code) then we will drop it and everyone can run the main-line version.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

Thehandyman1957

Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by Thehandyman1957 » 2016-06-18, 23:50

Moonchild wrote:
Thehandyman1957 wrote:I am curious Moonchild, wasn't the Atom version of Pale Moon made specifically for those running the older netbooks using XP?
No, it's the other way around: The Atom version was made to retain XP compatibility because (at the time) Windows XP was still common.
Ah, I see. I did not know they were still using it in newer machines. Makes sense now. Thank you.

31816

Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by 31816 » 2016-06-21, 07:40

i would like to say that i definately plan to use palemoon on my new pc. :D ive been using PM longer than any other browser in my 10 years online

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Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by Fedor2 » 2016-06-21, 16:56

To winxp folks

I never switch winxp, even if i buy a new pc, perhaps linux in the distant future. Today there are no linuxes better than winxp.
I already do a palemoon for winxp, and it runs like the regular non atom, there are minor differences only, and there no autoupdate of course. And i keep doing this further. However this is fully unofficial version and you'll lose official support undoubtedly, so if you don't afraid of this you are welcome.

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Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by Moonchild » 2016-06-24, 13:10

After some perfomance testing on different builds on an Atom machine I have available, it became clear that, probably due to the complexity and size of our code, Atom-optimized builds of the new code base don't perform better to a significant enough level to warrant maintaining a specialized build for it.

As such, the new milestone and later won't have an Atom-specific build any longer. That being said, the overall performance increase of the new code base should more than make up for any specific losses in specialized CPU instructions.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

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