The Future of Pale Moon

Talk about code development, features, specific bugs, enhancements, patches, and similar things.
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jh144

Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by jh144 » 2016-09-24, 18:48

Thanks for the info, I'm glad to hear this was a consideration in the decision. Since the new Alpha will install and run separately I'll grab a copy and give it a try.

Tar_Ni

Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by Tar_Ni » 2016-10-04, 00:39

I'm really excited by your new project guys but there is one thing I consider fundamental when using a web browser:

Will the NoScript extension still work?

With all the talks of Mozilla going full electrolysis and the NoScript team trying to deal with that, that leaves me wondering about Pale Moon..

dark_moon

Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by dark_moon » 2016-10-07, 15:41

Yes, NoScript works with Pale Moon 27

Gary5

Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by Gary5 » 2016-10-10, 15:31

Is there a way I can tell which extensions are Jetpack?

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back2themoon
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Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by back2themoon » 2016-10-10, 17:12

Gary5 wrote:Is there a way I can tell which extensions are Jetpack?
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=12673&p=89536

Gary5

Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by Gary5 » 2016-10-10, 17:15

back2themoon wrote:
Gary5 wrote:Is there a way I can tell which extensions are Jetpack?
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=12673&p=89536
Thanks!

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Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by back2themoon » 2016-10-11, 23:05

Really looking forward to the stable release, the beta is working so well. What I'm not looking forward to is the whining and hate about extension compatibility.

Don't know if it's possible, but perhaps there could be a one-time message on browser startup upon detection of a few popular extensions, where the user would be given the suggestion to visit the Add-ons site for an alternative (Self-Destructing Cookies=>Crush Those Cookies).

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Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by Moonchild » 2016-10-11, 23:12

The following still applies:

Extensibility is important - but not that important
What matters most to Pale Moon is its core and striking a logical balance in it. Extensibility is an important part of that, but is not the end-all of what Pale Moon is about. Pale Moon is not just an "extension framework" and its core does not exist solely to run extensions. In fact, running the browser without any extensions is perfectly possible and viable, and will not give you in any way a poor, incomplete or lacking browsing experience. Many users use Pale Moon that way because of how it, as a product, tries to maintain the balance between the progressive and the conservative, with more (or at the very least the same) user choice as time goes on, instead of less.

(repeat from the sticky regarding the change to the v25 milestone)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6081#p39005

Our support for Firefox extensions is and should be considered legacy at this point. We support it, but YMMV as more and more will simply have to target Pale Moon natively (as some have thankfully done by now).
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"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
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Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by eskaton » 2016-10-12, 02:47

Moonchild, I don't disagree with the content of your post above. However, I've already had the same thoughts as back2themoon in regard to the oncoming storm and the warning inside the browser before 27 is released. I had that idea when one of the betas identified jetpack extensions and disabled them. Think of how many times users here have already asked about jetpack extensions and language packs in the beta on the forum. Stickies and even notes on the download page doesn't convey the message well enough it seems. Only a small percentage of users (compared to the download numbers I've seen reported here and there) frequent the forum...and every week it seems like someone else finds out about jetpack/language packs for the first time.

I think if the yellow hashed bars that show in the beta on jetpack extensions were implemented in the version before 27 is released to let people know those exetensions won't work after their next update it would go a long way towards not angering or confusing users. In turn, thath will prevent many from coming to the forum and asking the same question or posting the same complaints over and over. Or everyone's favorit, the rage-quit post.

I believe one of the previous high record number of users on the forum was set when PM changed the GUID and extensions went haywire for many. No need to repeat that history if it can be mitigated.

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Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by Moonchild » 2016-10-12, 10:12

This will only affect Jetpack add-ons; most of which haven't exactly been compatible with Pale Moon over time anyway -- the bar on those extension will remain in place in the final release, that's not just a beta feature. The GUID change impacted many more, also classic, extensions.

We are all well-aware that dropping Jetpack will cause bitching, and will cause people to leave. It already does in the beta board because of even the potential that one of a user's extensions might no longer be available, or having to learn how a replacement works. But it's simply not possible to maintain an abstraction library that simply won't work.
It's also not like we are dropping support for extensions as a whole; merely the by far smallest collection of Firefox plugins that work on Pale Moon.

Once more, like I said before: anything that is written with jetpack can be converted to a native extension -- all jetpack does is translate (SDK) commands/functions to other (JavaScript) commands/functions. Yes, it will be more work to do it in pure JS, but certainly feasible.

If people insist they want this kind of abstracted extension framework compatibility, then they should step up to help us out -- and in that case I suggest they help out getting WebExtensions working; just be aware that it will be a huge undertaking either way.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
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Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by eskaton » 2016-10-12, 14:02

True, it's only Jetpack and not all extensions affected, but the small pool of users trying out the alpah/beta have brought up several extentions already. I have two jetpack extensions on most of my PM installs that I need to contend with as well. I think there's a pitfall of minimizing the issue because jetpack makes up a smaller portion of the extension pool. And I understand that the framework can't be ported over. I'm not suggesting or asking for that.

My only suggestion was to take the code for the yellow bar/jetpack warning and pull that into the current 26 branch, if possible. Rather than disabling the extension(s), simply give a warning that v27 won't support it/them. The majority of users don't know (and shouldn't have to know) what code or framework their extension was built with. Hell, many folks in this forum don't know that and have asked for ways to help identify them, which you have thankfully provided. This probably comes from years working on, around, or supervising help desks, but my mindset is try and inform and prepare the user. Prevent as much backlash as possible; in truth, I'm hoping to help save you time (and sanity) from repeating the same response over and over in the forum.

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Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by Moonchild » 2016-10-12, 14:14

That's actually a good idea, because people are inherently NOT going to read anything on the web until it's published and they run into issues.
However, even with that, you'll have many people who won't ever open the add-on manager when they aren't changing anything, so the number of people informed won't be much larger.
(although going out of my way to pop up something for those users would really be a bit too much).
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

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Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by eskaton » 2016-10-12, 14:34

Blerg, you're right. Would it be possible for an update to trigger the about:addons page focused on the Extensions sub-page to pop up on the next restart? Seems like there's usually a tab opened for release notes following an update; perhaps the same methodolgy could be applied here.
There would need to be some sort of message to convey why the addons page was opened and alert the user to review their extension list though. Would there be enough room for text in the individual extension description/overlay to communicate that?

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Re: The Future of Pale Moon

Unread post by Moonchild » 2016-10-12, 14:44

It'll just have to suffice that people get informed from the add-on manager, and indicate in the release notes of the point release that includes this warning that people should check.
That's as far as we can mitigate the assumption that nothing ever changes.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

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