Idea for a new browser product

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Re: Idea for a new browser product

Post by half-moon » 2016-03-16, 23:08

Ghacks talks about this thread: http://www.ghacks.net/2016/03/16/the-future-of-pale-moon/

There is one part that might be inaccurate though:
The main idea here is to use a newer version of Firefox's code base for that (Pale Moon's core code base is Firefox 24) but without sacrificing the user interface or the majority of features that make Pale Moon different from Firefox.

The step would resolve several issues the team is facing mid- to long-term not only compatibility wise with new web technologies but also with Mozilla planning to integrate major changes to Firefox (multi-process, WebExtensions, Servo).
The comments section isn't really being friendly this time around.

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Re: Idea for a new browser product

Post by CharmCityCrab » 2016-03-17, 03:10

half-moon wrote:Ghacks talks about this thread: http://www.ghacks.net/2016/03/16/the-future-of-pale-moon/

[...]

The comments section isn't really being friendly this time around.
I tried to stick up for Pale Moon and it's developers in the comment section, and recruit coders, but I think my post is bouncing around somewhere in a moderator queue or something. Hopefully it finds it's way to the main page and not into the land of censored posts, never again to see the sun. ;)

Honestly, on sites like that, there are so many experienced coders who I think it would be very helpful to the project, if instead of hanging out over there criticizing the project as not being up to their standards, they came over here and committed a patch or something. Assuming this is something they have any interest in, that is. But so many people seem to fall into the category of criticizing Firefox, wanting something in the realm of what Pale Moon could be, and having coding skills, and then instead of doing the obvious thing and helping, just throw stones.

We're moving to a very corporate driven web. There is really no large browser that is not either owned by or highly associated with a major for profit corporation.

Pale Moon could be a refreshing exception to that. It *is* a refreshing exception to that- except it's not getting the support it needs from people with the skills it needs to be the best browser it can be and expand it's marketshare. The devs we have are great, but they can't clone themselves. They keep asking for more help. I hope some people volunteer.

I wouldn't mind seeing a Linux distro with some clout making Pale Moon their default browser and working with the devs on coding and such either. They talk about wanting to be community oriented places and then make their default browser the one put out by the Mozilla corporation that ignores user preferences, and a lot of them personally install Google's Chromium, and very few even have Pale Moon in their repos. It's a shame.

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Re: Idea for a new browser product

Post by CharmCityCrab » 2016-03-17, 05:39

Out of curiosity, what would be the ideal coding language for a novice to learn with the goal of contributing to the Pale Moon community in some way? If there are several, what's the easiest? What are some free online resources people could use to try to teach themselves?

To be honest, I highly doubt I could learn anything. I failed Spanish very badly in high school a couple decades ago- by which I mean I'm told over the course of a semester, I learned one word that wasn't already in my vocabulary (meaning excluding words like "taco") and I'm told I mispronounced my one word. :)

The closest thing to this I've done is some very rudimentary HTML markup- meaning I could embed an image, create a link, separate paragraphs, and create a header, essentially, often having to refer back to a cheat sheet to double check.

So, I doubt this would be within my abilities to learn. But I'd at least check out the page and see. I feel bad that all I can really do is offer suggestions when clearly more is needed.

And I think, more importantly, there are other people with the capacity to learn who might give it a shot if they were told how they could look into learning and what specifically they should learn.

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Re: Idea for a new browser product

Post by Moonchild » 2016-03-17, 10:07

I'm just going to pick out a few things said here from the discussion I've read with interest in its entirety:
  • There seems to be the idea that "what we have now as a community is what there will always be". I think this is a misconception. First off, our doors have always been open (see my initial post) to anyone wanting to help out. The uptake has been slow (I for a big part blame the misinformation about what we actually are and the plethora of re-builds calling themselves forks, while they aren't, for quite a bit of that), and making a new product (but note: see below) would give us a clean slate and a fresh (re)start that will significantly lower the threshold for new contributors to get started. I'm also planning to create a bounty system for Pale Moon from there on for significant contributions -- several Open Source projects use bounty systems with great success, and it would help get more people motivated to spend their time and expertise on an alternative browser.
  • I haven't said anything about re-branding our project or throwing out our current user base. I do plan to keep the features we currently have, and the customizability we currently have, but considering the rather important changes to how it works, and breaking direct extension compatibility with Firefox extensions (you won't be able to load FF extensions into Pale Moon any longer without modification), it would be a new product.
    The fact that I have started this thread here has been exactly what people in the community have asked for: to be involved in and be informed of important direction/project changes early on.
  • Please don't over-simplify what this idea would entail. It is not something you can catch in a few sentences without doing it justice. This is not something that can be digested in 10 seconds, either. It is a complex, multi-faceted change if we would go this route, not "just gluing our UI on top of Firefox" or what not - the Mozilla code base is, above all, a platform for multiple types of applications. This is why SeaMonkey and Thunderbird (and FossaMail based on our Mozilla fork) as well as the framework by itself (AKA xulrunner that can run completely custom applications) have existed and can exist. We have done similar things in the past when we jumped code base with major version numbers, albeit much less major of a jump or with as much impact. We will have to port forward our own code as well as re-do some other things, and we'll have to write new code for interfacing.
  • There is an important difference here as well in terms of "playing catch-up" as seems to be the perceived result: We will neither have to try and catch up to some landmark, fundamental changes we've missed out on in our current implementation (which would by themselves be as much work to try and re-write), nor would we have the same issues porting things across, as explained before, since the code structure would be more compatible with what Mozilla has been working with for a while now (and seems to have stabilized considerably) as well as compiler compatibility. Combine this with the lower threshold for contributions, and on the long term this then becomes a very viable future of Pale Moon. By aiming for a later, carefully selected re-forking point, we will have the basis for web-facing technologies to build on that is needed now and in the future, that can be expanded on because it would be a solid base without missing pieces. The web will evolve further, no doubt about that, but despite all the draft specs that folks base their work on when developing websites, there are some required technologies that are solid (and in some cases formalized) that are considered a minimum. As said in my original post those are some marks we missed (some by a hair), and we've been trying to work through that; but Mozilla's code-changing practices have made these some pretty high walls to climb over or break through, so we've been hampered in our progress to get these landmark features in that are now (several years later) starting to be used on a larger scale, mostly by pushing of the large players in the field, not because the "new tech" is essentially better or strictly required for a dynamic web.
Once more to clarify: this is early involvement of you, as a community, in our long-term planning for products in the project. This is what community-driven software should do. This is open development. This is not and was not meant to be an opening for people to suggest things that are far outside our intended mission (e.g. no longer being a Mozilla-derived browser), nor meant to be a place to change or criticize our project management. This was tossing up an idea, an idea, of long-term development with the resources we have for a viable long-term solution, to come to something more easily sustainable and in balance with what we have available.
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Re: Idea for a new browser product

Post by Moonchild » 2016-03-17, 10:40

half-moon wrote:The comments section isn't really being friendly this time around.
I'm afraid that is because the people who have been against Pale Moon from its inception see this as a reason to shout "See? We told you!" without actually trying to understand what this is about.
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Re: Idea for a new browser product

Post by Lucio Chiappetti » 2016-03-17, 11:11

win7-7 wrote: Will customizability be exactly same as currently?
Will stability be as good as it is currently?
large amount/ many of add-ons should still work after this?
I was reluctant to enter this thread, as I have nothing to offer in terms of competence and availability of time. In this respect I am just a user (a user who likes stable public domain tools, like e.g. fvwm or alpine besides palemoon). The point is that a thing like a window manager or a mail user agent can be after a while rather more stable than a browser, because site providers change our "environment" (often more than it would be desirable). So I trust the current development team.

I would add to the above questions also the continued support for linux. Actually in my list of priority for a (new) browser, linux support comes first, stability comes next, then customizability (mainly as a way to enforce stability). Add-on support comes last (after all I use just half a dozen of add-ons, probably the most complex of which is ABL which is in the capable hands of Tobin, and the other go along with customizability).
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. (G.B. Shaw)

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Re: Idea for a new browser product

Post by trava90 » 2016-03-17, 12:53

Lucio Chiappetti wrote:I would add to the above questions also the continued support for linux.
There are no plans to drop Linux support, regardless of whether this idea comes to fruition or not.

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Re: Idea for a new browser product

Post by CharmCityCrab » 2016-03-17, 17:27

Moonchild wrote: I'm also planning to create a bounty system for Pale Moon from there on for significant contributions
That sounds like a very good idea- whether Pale Moon continues on as it is, or makes the changes discussed on this thread. Either way, anything we can do to encourage more engagement from the coding community is a big win for Pale Moon and it's users, I think. If bounties are what are working for other open-source projects, it makes sense to try it here.

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Re: Idea for a new browser product

Post by Moonchild » 2016-03-17, 21:11

CharmCityCrab wrote:
Moonchild wrote: I'm also planning to create a bounty system for Pale Moon from there on for significant contributions
That sounds like a very good idea- whether Pale Moon continues on as it is, or makes the changes discussed on this thread. Either way, anything we can do to encourage more engagement from the coding community is a big win for Pale Moon and it's users, I think. If bounties are what are working for other open-source projects, it makes sense to try it here.
Well, in fact, I've just labeled our first bounty-backed bug. I'm mentioning this here because this bug in particular will be an important reason to either re-base or not.
In the future, bounty-backed bugs will be labeled with the "Bounty" GitHub label as well.
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Re: Idea for a new browser product

Post by Falna » 2016-03-18, 00:45

I'm no coder, but:
Moonchild wrote:I do plan to keep the features we currently have, and the customizability we currently have, but considering the rather important changes to how it works, and breaking direct extension compatibility with Firefox extensions
Moonchild wrote:it would make sense to evolve the extension ecosystem into something that would be specific to this new browser, with focused development on a stable and unique framework, removing all of the compatibility headaches we've seen recently as well as making things easy for extension developers to maintain their work for us.
For me, breaking direct extension compatibility with Firefox extensions is an existential threat to Pale Moon, just as breaking extension compatibility with FF is likely to speed it's continuing decline. The availability of a wide range of extensions was key factor that drove the growth of FF - and the prospect of many of them becoming incompatible was a key factor that caused me (and, I suspect, others) to move to Pale Moon. IMHO Pale Moon must continue to provide access to at least the majority of those extensions to succeed. And, based on the current experience, expecting extension developers to rewrite their code in sufficient numbers to keep Pale Moon attractive is probably unrealistic. It would therefore seem necessary for any rebase project to include the forking of large numbers of extensions, which may not be viable.
Moonchild wrote:Crowdfunding would be something to look into if there was a clear need for funding to put back into the project, i.e.: if there is a clear and detailed plan of action for a significant period of time to come, but this isn't possible for a browser.
Well, it might be very useful source of funds to pay for the forking of a large number of extensions.
And there could also be more reasons to do it than to raise cash. As part of a larger communications plan, it might play a significant part in grabbing the attention of the internet, spreading with word about Pale Moon, and attracting potential code contributors. Look, for example, at the splash (http://techcrunch.com/2013/08/20/mailpile/) made by MailPile https://www.mailpile.is/, which not only raised cash, but which also now has >100 contributors, >5000 commits, >400 watchers, and >6,000 stars on GitHub. That's not bad for a 3-year-old project, though the timing of the Snowden leaks no doubt helped their publicity. And if crowdfunding works for a mail client, maybe it would work for a browser, if the case is well made.
CharmCityCrab wrote:I'd like to thank MoonChild and Matt A. Tobin for starting this thread and being detailed and forthright about their future plans, and involving the community in the process in advance of making the decisions, which is a pleasant contrast to the way most browsers (Even some of the other Open Source ones [i.e. Firefox, Chrome]), do things.
I couldn't have said it better.

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Re: Idea for a new browser product

Post by Joel Cairo » 2016-03-18, 02:12

If I ever stop being run off my feet, I'll get involved. I'd certainly like to. At which point I'll grasp these proposals well enough to have an opinion.
Off-topic:
CharmCityCrab @ ghacks: impressive arguments! :thumbup:

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Re: Idea for a new browser product

Post by CharmCityCrab » 2016-03-18, 02:14

Joel Cairo wrote:
Off-topic:
CharmCityCrab @ ghacks: impressive arguments! :thumbup:
Thanks! :)

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Re: Idea for a new browser product

Post by win7-7 » 2016-03-18, 07:19

Isn't rebase to newer Mozilla code possible without breaking compatibility with most of currently functioning XUL and Add-on SDK add-ons?

Of course WebExtensions are understandably not going to work with Pale Moon but I think that it would be best that large amount of XUL and Add-on SDK add-ons would continue to work. This would make it more attractive to those extensions developer that are not going to rewrite them to WebExtensions to provide official support to Pale Moon or help to solve issues with extensions. Breaking compatibility with currently functioning XUL and Add-on SDK add-ons would make Pale Moon less attractive to extension developers.

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Re: Idea for a new browser product

Post by ketmar » 2016-03-18, 08:56

Falna wrote:For me, breaking direct extension compatibility with Firefox extensions is an existential threat to Pale Moon
...
Pale Moon must continue to provide access to at least the majority of those extensions to succeed. And, based on the current experience, expecting extension developers to rewrite their code in sufficient numbers to keep Pale Moon attractive is probably unrealistic.
it's not that Pale Moon will break the things tomorrow, it's a vision of very distant future. ;-)

also, Pale Moon dev team really cares about compatibility, and about not breaking things that used to work. so i don't expect such dramatical changes as firefox team did; i'm pretty sure that there will be either compatibility layer, or even (semi)automatic converter. all the work invested in "rescuing" old firefox extensions will not be simply thrown away. ;-) it's not the way Pale Moon developed.

i understand that if there ever will be such changes, they will be done to cleanup a dust that mozilla platform collected over the years, and for most extensions the solution will be something like "import this Compat.jsm module". or, maybe, even just "change app GUID, as we don't support firefox GUID anymore".

so don't be afraid, users won't lost their precious extensions. extensions is what makes Pale Moon powerful and attractive, and we (users and devs) all learned mozilla's lesson. ;-)

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Re: Idea for a new browser product

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2016-03-18, 11:46

As far as extensions are concerned in this theoretical future.. Efforts will be made to get essential extensions converted. As for everything else, it will really be as much up to the community and the extension developers as it is now. The good news is.. Those extensions won't have to do much.. In a way it wouldn't be much different than say targeting SeaMonkey. They would just need to make sure they target our GUID and target toolkit. (Instead of CustomizableUI) So really it should be far easier because they wouldn't have to throw away all of their new code they have done thus far because our common ancestor didn't support it bits and bobs.

I mentioned early on that the Add-ons Team and my self have focused too much time on forks and the pseudo-statics and lists of incompatible extensions and not enough time on the services developers need to actually submit and get their extensions out there... That can't stay as it is any longer. All my effort regardless of this happening or not will now be spent specifically on Project Phoebus because we need a platform now for the add-ons site for developers to be able to easily manage their extensions and rapidly be able to get new extensions up on the site. Enough distractions... time to accomplish by doing the job we signed up for not what fate and good intentions forced us into doing for the past few years.

The community must be involved.
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Re: Idea for a new browser product

Post by snertev » 2016-03-18, 14:11

Matt A Tobin wrote:As far as extensions are concerned in this theoretical future.. Efforts will be made to get essential extensions converted. As for everything else, it will really be as much up to the community and the extension developers as it is now. The good news is.. Those extensions won't have to do much.. In a way it wouldn't be much different than say targeting SeaMonkey. They would just need to make sure they target our GUID and target toolkit. (Instead of CustomizableUI) So really it should be far easier because they wouldn't have to throw away all of their new code they have done thus far because our common ancestor didn't support it bits and bobs
About extensions: do you think that it could be created anything like this

http://addonconverter.fotokraina.com/

?

It would be a way to let do the manual work of conversion by those people who cannot really code, at least for those extensions that can be easily converted.

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Re: Idea for a new browser product

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2016-03-18, 15:47

No.. and here is why.. Though this is getting kinda off topic. The reason is for the same reason it was not done already and why edited extensions by users them selves have been discouraged. It turns the extension field into a free for all with conflicting extensions all with varying levels of functioning and those extensions could be overwritten by the AUS server because their ID's match and the server won't know if you have edited it or not. Now you say there is a solution for that.. Change the ID.. Sure that could work up until you install the real supported version which then will try and run along side an edited one and conflict with each other.

Centralized repository and human eyes and hands remain the best way to prevent this kind of madness from happening. Also, such a tool would NEVER be able to account for everything. There is only so much that can be done with automation and everyone's code is different. What one might do in one extension may be done completely different in another even if it is the exact same thing. No, automated tools will not solve this and would be a as detrimental as everyone and their brother attaching XPI files to forum posts.

What will is if I get what we need on the foundation actually done and developers can easily do their thing and get extensions up and out to people. Now that isn't to say someone couldn't do this or edit them manually.. but in NO way is that going to be supported by us and would be entirely your choice and at your own risk. We cannot nor should be expected to solve problems of your own creation but we aren't going to stop you from doing it anyway with such nonsense as enforced signed extensions.. etc. Freedom comes with responsibilities. And our job is to enable you to make the right choices not broadly limit your ability to make wrong ones and never learning anything.. This is one of the major differences between a project like ours and say pretty much anything else going on today.
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Re: Idea for a new browser product

Post by Moonchild » 2016-03-18, 20:19

There will be plenty of opportunity and time for extension developers to add Pale Moon specific compatibility if we go this route. It's not an overnight thing, this is long-term, and if development progresses this way, we will make sure to make plenty of pre-releases available for extension developers to work with and tune their extensions to.

Think about the following, please:
  • It's been clear from the start that extension compatibility with extensions not written specifically for us would inevitably decline because we can only do so much to keep our core compatible with Firefox extensions without being Firefox.
  • Firefox compatibility in extensions has never been intended to be indefinite. The dual-GUID acceptance has always been a transitory concession so as to not end up unhanding all users when we forked off into our own direction and identity. The fact that people have been able to target us specifically for over a year and that a number of them have done so, is exactly what this transitory setup was hoping to achieve, and building up our own ecosystem in that respect.
  • With Firefox deprecating and removing support for extensions as we currently still know them, there is also less of a reason to keep this Firefox compatibility effort going.
  • Also, unlike Firefox, we do not intend to make drastic changes every release for extensions, even if for the proposed new version some work would need to be done.
  • As stated before, modifications required to target Pale Moon would likely be non-intrusive or even trivial. Of course this means that some modifications are still required, but that is where we look at you, our community, to help out. As stated clearly many times in the past, we cannot take on development and maintenance tasks for extensions -- even if we have done so for some essential ones out of a sense of willingness to go the extra mile for our users.
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Re: Idea for a new browser product

Post by richardboegli » 2016-03-19, 20:13

*PHEW* Took me three sitting to get through this thread. :)

First off, Thanks to MoonChild, Tobin and the rest of the team for such a great browser. I've been a happy user for a bit over 2 years now on Windows and on Android since Jul 2014 ;)
IIRC I first came across Palemoon as I was looking for a 64bit Windows build of a Firefox fork and then when Australis broke some of the extensions I was using when it came out in Firefox Beta 29 (March 2014) I think that's when I switched over.

I am a big proponent of Palemoon as a replacement to Firefox and promote it every chance I get.
Any of my friends or colleagues that still use Firefox, I recommend them to shift over to Palemoon.

I'd prepared a post after reading page 1, but most of my points were answered in subsequent posts. I'll need to rewrite it as most of it is irrelevant now, but there are still some valuable points worth mentioning.

I'll do a TL;DR of some of the major themes which I notice repeating through the thread to consolidate / confirm my own understanding and for the future readers of this thread to have a quick reference.

Thanks.

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Re: Idea for a new browser product

Post by mr tribute » 2016-03-20, 00:07

I am going to approach this from a different angle. Pale Moon is great. It is everything I want from a browser. It's like Firefox when Firefox was good (that was a really long time ago).

But you are trying to do the impossible. You don't have the manpower and funds to replace mainstream browsers. Let me give you a comparison. I like Linux, but I still boot into Windows from time to time. It's because there aren't enough manpower and funds and third party support behind Linux to completely replace Windows.

Let ordinary people use Chrome, Firefox. IE, Edge or whatever shite the big corporations put out.

Target geeks that understand Pale Moon and what it is about. Money doesn't seem to be your biggest problem. Kick back, relax, offer yourself some slack.

Let's approach it from this angle:

If nothing major is done, how long lifespan does the current version of Pale Moon have?

When will things start to break? What will break first?

If something breaks in Pale Moon (in the future) I will just fire up Firefox. It's faster than booting into Windows. Just like Linux can't replace Windows, Pale Moon can't replace corporate browsers. Don't target mainstream “dumb” users. Develop Pale Moon because you love it, not because you need to implement new technologies.

New tech is often a way for big corporations to maintain their dominance. Don't fall into that trap. I will never demand that Pale Moon handles all the new shitty tech big corporations come up with.

I have seen too many small projects with lofty ambitions fall flat on their faces. Pale Moon is good because you put A LOT of effort into it. But now is time to carefully analyze what is really worth your time and effort. Don't let big corporations lead you into a sinkhole.

Make Pale Moon do the basics and because of the superior UI you will still be number one.

Just my two cents.

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