A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by pm4eva » 2021-12-21, 19:36

You still can customize the GUI od FF by using userchrome.css (a little bit)
I use FF with many Addons and there is not much i miss
just DownThemAll or GrabIT are things what does not work anymore.
TabMixPlus is another thing what would be great.
Mozilla does alot BS and i think the end will be that they will stop work on it.

On the other hand in PM i just miss now a UserAgentSwitcher.
I tried that Eclipse Addon but it does not work seems cos i tested it.
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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by moonbat » 2021-12-21, 23:48

pm4eva wrote:
2021-12-21, 19:36
On the other hand in PM i just miss now a UserAgentSwitcher
You shouldn't mess with your default useragent, it only breaks websites and does nothing for privacy (the opposite, infact, by making you stand out.) Pale Moon supports site specific user agent overrides in about:config for compatibility, you can use PermissionsPlus (link in my signature) or Sasuga to make it easier to set for individual sites.
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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by gepus » 2021-12-22, 10:09

fatboy wrote:
2021-12-21, 13:18
I see the community have spoken and that insecure, discontinued extensions will work once more.
First:
An extension doesn't become insecure out of the blue. It remains as secure as it was at time of its release.

Second:
Discontinued extensions will work only as long as the underlying code of the browser the extensions rely on doesn't change.
This still will apply for Pale Moon as it applies to any other browser on this planet.

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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-12-22, 14:40

Moonchild wrote:
2021-12-17, 18:28
You'd best not try to redefine history here which is what you're doing regarding Basilisk. You were on board with it being used as a development application for the (back then) UXP-in-development. Don't try to tell everyone now you weren't because it's convenient ammo with it having outlasted the time you envisioned it would last because there was some utility value in an Australis browser based on the platform code. Then you're just being hypocrite. And I can't stand hypocrites.
I was NEVER a fan of Basilisk but I tried very hard to ignore it except for the WebExtension crap. As you are WELL AWARE I did everything in my power to keep Basilisk's continued existence from compromising Pale Moon and other planned projects. WHY ELSE would I have ported the Tycho Add-ons Manager AND an older non-fucked Search Service to the codebase. AS WELL AS eventually helped to REMOVE the FxA Sync and PORT the Weave Sync UI components. Even going as far as to research into Firefox history to find correct toolbar button base resources and making SURE it matched the specific OS themes. An AUSTRALIS Browser and technology is antithetical to EVERYTHING that has been previously maintained along with WebRTC and DRM. Eventually, yeah, I saw SOME limited value in it because maybe it would get people to stop bitching about Firefox Extensions and the enemy technologies Pale Moon or my projects would NEVER have but it never did so it was all for nothing. Including challenging you publicly about the WebExtensions bullshit. THE ONE regret I have with how I handed that. But thanks to my tireless work I still succeeded to keep the Late Model pre-quantum Firefox infection to a minimum to the point of SAVING the Unified XUL Platform as a viable codebase.
Moonchild wrote:
2021-12-17, 18:28
Yeah you'll have to do some work for transitioning back to the Firefox GUID. But hey, guess what? You designed the addons site specifically to handle multiple GUIDS, didn't you? Also thanks to Basilisk. And since you're taking the time to basically shit on everything now I've done to actually be more accessible to users (Basilisk, language packs, wanting to have less barriers for extensions now) I get the feeling you think you are literally the boss of me!? I'm sick of your increasing levels of bullshit and anger on display towards everyone within striking distance.
The sudden change in direction of Pale Moon from what has been built up was a terrible shock to me and the fact you decided to do it without saying much if anything regarding it. It really pissed me off and still does. NO I don't think I am the boss of you BUT I am not happy with proceeding without a well defined plan of attack before hand. Especially since I seem to remain critical to making this happen unless I just take my server and fuck off. Which I am slightly tempted to do but NOO I can't do that because I would never be welcome anywhere near this sphere ever again. Nor does breaking my long standing word and vow after the Usual Suspects attempted their 2016 coup appeal to me.

Yes, I did design the Add-ons Site Software to do multiple GUIDs but I also designed that code three years ago along the same developmental evolution from the manifest files and previously the hacked and bashed CMS Made Simple form. We are talking about much more than a few code changes to make this all happen. I only have it a vaguely casual overview in my earlier post. THERE is no way to effectively MERGE two targetApplications and get away with a few code changes due to that history.
Moonchild wrote:
2021-12-17, 18:28
I may have been OK with you labelling yourself the "UXP coordinator" because you seemed to function better having some label of importance, but if you think I'll let you single-handedly sabotage the only way we can survive going forward you're dead wrong, no matter how much you decide to whinge about "you having to do everything" -- last I checked you've been mostly doing your own thing for a browser you never released and pushing your own ideas for improving the addons site while it was already working pretty well as-is and you call that doing work I made you have to do?....
I created and took on the title of UXP Coordinator because there MUST be some kind of coordination of how the platform codebase progresses with an eye to more than Just Firefox Pale Moon. I have worked for three years after I "left" the Pale Moon project to ensure that things like Moebius, development collisions, and Janek situations don't happen to us again. I hold the so called BIG PICTURE in my head when almost no one else can be bothered be it different application needs or different target os needs. THAT is (was?) my job. In that capacity I have continued the efforts mentioned above and much more to make sure things like GCC compatibility or altos doesn't fuck up the entire sphere of things. That progressive development is balanced between the needs of everyone and everything. This is NOT a job you wanted to do nor one that anyone else can be bothered with as with many responsibilities that have come about. I do them because no one else has or will.

AS FOR MY PROJECTS.. I have tinkered for three years on Borealis and as you point out haven't got it done yet because of other responsibilities assigned or assumed have taken priority over my pet project. Including Pale Moon and even those FEW times I did something for Basilisk but mostly the platform its self among everything else.
Moonchild wrote:
2021-12-17, 18:28
So you better get on board with this and stop giving me BS reasons to try and push your unrealistic vision on MY project, or you can just right fuck off and take your ideals with you to Binary Outcast and spin your own platform and Borealis off into whatever you want it to be. I will not have any of it! If necessary I'll maintain everything myself
While I have learned a lot I still have almost NO C++ skill so I could not ever maintain the platform codebase its self. You know this. Oh I could just break away and do what everyone else seems to do but where would that get me? AND in light of my condensed overview of what I do AS Coordinator where would that leave you and the remaining people who aren't actively out to destroy us.

Look Moonchild, I don't REALLY want to tell you what you should and shouldn't do with your project and I do realize that at the end of the day even as I work to maintain a balance of all concerns that Pale Moon will always be the flagship project. But as the flagship project I am just not sure about all this.. It is a lot of work to reverse policy and decisions agreed upon and it is a crapshoot if anyone will accept it.

To be clear and in the final analysis, I don't want to stop contributing and working on this stuff that has been a major if not consuming part of my life for seven years or so. But you HAVE made it clear that continued tolerance of my style of conversation and problem solving on this forum is very much waning. Perhaps the state of the world and things just can't deal with my continued interaction on an interpersonal or authoritative level. AND you may have a valid point that things DO seem to require an altered if not totally different strategy these days. Of course there will be consequences to this.

Those would be as follows: IF I go along with all this and your renewed vision of how things should progress in your project I will not be participating within the Pale Moon community its self anymore. That will mean that this community will not have the benefit of my knowledge and insight but then again they won't have to deal with what they obviously are too mentally and emotionally fragile to handle. Perhaps I could return when the babybitches have grown up a bit and don't cry at the drop of a hat. I dunno. I also won't be seeking combat with those outside the community proper either. The enemy flora and platforms will be left to their own devices. Your project will be as you see fit including the protection of it from now on. I am done in that regard.

I just hope that you aren't making a fatal mistake in all this and if it does end up that way.. LET IT BE KNOWN, if that phone does indeed ring, that I fuckin called it.

Assuming I am still Coordinator, I will keep things professional and not enter into personal discussions should you decide to re-open the repos. As I MAY have a lot of work once to do once I am set up in Texas, I will be keeping other forms of communication to a minimum until necessary for the time being.
athenian200 wrote:
2021-12-18, 00:06
I don't like the feeling of "giving into the users" either, but the majority of the people left using Pale Moon are using it for old Firefox extensions and no other reason. It is literally our only selling point right now, because we do not have an extension ecosystem, we do not have an add-ons team leader, and we do not have good web compatibility. Those old Firefox extensions and maybe Flash Player are the only reason anyone would give us the time of day right now.
So it would appear.
athenian200 wrote:
2021-12-18, 00:06
I really hope Moonchild doesn't hold this against you [...]
That remains to be seen.
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I'll chase him round the moons of Nibia and round the Antares maelstrom and round perdition's flames before I give him up.. Prepare to alter course.

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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-12-22, 15:57

New Tobin Paradigm wrote:
2021-12-22, 14:40
I was NEVER a fan of Basilisk but I tried very hard to ignore it except for the WebExtension crap. As you are WELL AWARE I did everything in my power to keep Basilisk's continued existence from compromising Pale Moon and other planned projects. WHY ELSE would I have ported the Tycho Add-ons Manager AND an older non-fucked Search Service to the codebase. AS WELL AS eventually helped to REMOVE the FxA Sync and PORT the Weave Sync UI components. Even going as far as to research into Firefox history to find correct toolbar button base resources {...}
Which just underlines my point you were on board with it, at least as far as I could see from everything you said and did. Seriously, do you think I have a window into your brain or something?
New Tobin Paradigm wrote:
2021-12-22, 14:40
NO I don't think I am the boss of you BUT I am not happy with proceeding without a well defined plan of attack before hand. Especially since I seem to remain critical to making this happen unless I just take my server and fuck off. Which I am slightly tempted to do but NOO I can't do that because I would never be welcome anywhere near this sphere ever again. Nor does breaking my long standing word and vow after the Usual Suspects attempted their 2016 coup appeal to me.
I'm sorry to say but a "well-defined plan of attack" isn't even possible for long term decisions when dealing with the web browser environment where everything is changed by Google on a whim and everyone just "has to keep up with what they do". Nor is it possible to stubbornly hold on to a decision made 5 years ago when it becomes clear that it isn't working, and that it effectively kills all the things that drives this project forward. It requires flexibility. You may have labelled yourself coordinator but you've been acting like a military "captain" as you like to also call yourself (with a strict hierarchy and unchanging values and absolute command of everyone around him) and that is not at all my definition of coordinating. Coordinating means showing that flexibility and also taking into account the dynamics of the people you serve, not just your own vision. And it also means adapting to changing needs of applications. I think you've been treating this whole thing the wrong way, at least in your mind. An idea and plan is important, but it shouldn't be treated like it's set in stone, especially not if, during its implementation, circumstances change as well as assumed values would be wrong.

Honestly, I don't want you to fuck off, since that would really complicate matters as well for us without your server and the services you've provided for the project.
BUT... if you are unable to treat this as anything but a "command decision" you made then there is no choice.
If you really want to remain involved (and not break your vow from 5 years ago) then you have to also accept that Pale Moon's position has changed and that, regardless of your own desired and envisioned outcome, the platform must continue to support its applications. I've never stood in your way when you wanted to make changes to the platform code to benefit your own applications, and you shouldn't stand in my way when I make similar decisions to my applications.
New Tobin Paradigm wrote:
2021-12-22, 14:40
I don't want to stop contributing and working on this stuff that has been a major if not consuming part of my life for seven years or so. But you HAVE made it clear that continued tolerance of my style of conversation and problem solving on this forum is very much waning. Perhaps the state of the world and things just can't deal with my continued interaction on an interpersonal or authoritative level. AND you may have a valid point that things DO seem to require an altered if not totally different strategy these days. Of course there will be consequences to this.
When I read this, it seems clear to me you really want to continue here, and do want to continue supporting the project into the future.
New Tobin Paradigm wrote:
2021-12-22, 14:40
IF I go along with all this and your renewed vision of how things should progress in your project I will not be participating within the Pale Moon community its self anymore.
Considering the increasing amount of issues with how you deal with (or rather not deal with) the community, I think It's indeed better that you no longer are involved in the community or community matters, and that you focus on the technical aspects of supporting the applications and the platform if you want to remain involved at all. As for consequences? I think a consequence of users not being called fucking morons at the drop of a hat is something we can all live with :P

So this now becomes a yes or no to this question, Tobin:
WILL you go along with this and cooperate genuinely to the best of your ability with me in terms of keeping this a viable project?
If no, then we part ways and I'll have to somehow take over the services and infra you provided.
If yes, it means you no longer involve yourself with any decisions about Pale Moon itself or involve yourself with the Pale Moon community (for better or for worse) -- that also means you'll have to find a solution to your presence on this forum regarding your own projects (if you still want that, anyway...). It also means you continue to work with me to coordinate platform and addons site matters, etc. so there is and continues to be a foundation Pale Moon can lean on. I think we can find a new balance there.
New Tobin Paradigm wrote:
2021-12-22, 14:40
I just hope that you aren't making a fatal mistake in all this and if it does end up that way.. LET IT BE KNOWN, if that phone does indeed ring, that I fuckin called it.
Well if it is a fatal mistake, then that is something I will own up to. That is what owners do. You get to be smug about it - but with this warning: don't make it a self-fulfilling prophecy because that will not go over well with me at all and I'll not be lenient at all in that case.
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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-12-22, 21:46

Moonchild wrote:
2021-12-22, 15:57
So this now becomes a yes or no to this question, Tobin:
WILL you go along with this and cooperate genuinely to the best of your ability with me in terms of keeping this a viable project?
Yes, I shall.

As such I would like you to remove me from moderator status on the BinOC Board and assign Athenian200. I see no reason at this time to close an existing venue over this. This will also have the effect of of removing the block some have complained about when assigning me to the foe list. Not that it will matter much. However, I'd like to keep my account though because we still sometimes use the forum PM system.

Merry Christmas.
He tasks me. He tasks me and I shall have him.
I'll chase him round the moons of Nibia and round the Antares maelstrom and round perdition's flames before I give him up.. Prepare to alter course.

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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by Marcus » 2021-12-22, 21:54

New Tobin Paradigm wrote:
2021-12-22, 21:46
Merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas Tobin, I'm glad you're staying :)

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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by Michaell » 2021-12-23, 00:07

You need a UXP coordinator that other developers are willing to work with. Whatever title is used for it. Could you split the duties into something like one person as UXP Projects Coordinator and you know who as UXP Senior Developer. Developers don't have to be as polite or friendly. Athenian200 would be a good coordinator, meaning the contact person, regardless of what it's called. He has been doing good at interacting with Reddit users and seems to have a nice calm demeanor that will put people at ease. Other UXP based projects might then have a chance if too much damage has not already been done.
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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-12-23, 12:33

New Tobin Paradigm wrote:
2021-12-22, 21:46
Moonchild wrote:
2021-12-22, 15:57
So this now becomes a yes or no to this question, Tobin:
WILL you go along with this and cooperate genuinely to the best of your ability with me in terms of keeping this a viable project?
Yes, I shall.
All right then. I'm glad we can continue to work together.
As such I would like you to remove me from moderator status on the BinOC Board and assign Athenian200. I see no reason at this time to close an existing venue over this. This will also have the effect of of removing the block some have complained about when assigning me to the foe list. Not that it will matter much. However, I'd like to keep my account though because we still sometimes use the forum PM system.

Merry Christmas.
I see no problem with that solution. I'll make sure that happens as requested. Your projects are welcome to remain represented on the forum under different moderatorship and your account will remain active for private messaging reasons.

I do hope your move goes well and that you have a good holiday season, regardless! Happy Holidays.
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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-12-23, 12:38

Michaell wrote:
2021-12-23, 00:07
You need a UXP coordinator that other developers are willing to work with. Whatever title is used for it. Could you split the duties into something like one person as UXP Projects Coordinator and you know who as UXP Senior Developer. Developers don't have to be as polite or friendly. Athenian200 would be a good coordinator, meaning the contact person, regardless of what it's called. He has been doing good at interacting with Reddit users and seems to have a nice calm demeanor that will put people at ease. Other UXP based projects might then have a chance if too much damage has not already been done.
You really still seem to think we are a company where everyone can just have one hat because we have a workforce of many people that can just swap positions at will. Nope; we all wear multiple hats and balancing that stack of hats is precarious; Tobin simply has the best senior experience with the build system and overarching technical knowledge to fill that role. I'm thinking if everything is kept at a technical level (which I'm sure can be done) and there's no direct user interaction required, it'll work out. Like I stated i think we can find a new balance there; it won't be instant, we'll have to work more things out (but I gather none of the readers here will be privy to that).
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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by Admin » 2021-12-23, 12:51

New Tobin Paradigm wrote:
2021-12-22, 21:46
As such I would like you to remove me from moderator status on the BinOC Board and assign Athenian200. I see no reason at this time to close an existing venue over this.
The relevant changes have been made.
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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by wdlkmpx » 2021-12-27, 19:29

In the end, web compatibility is the most important issue for me.

I've always seen Palemoon as a lean Firefox and that's the only reason I've used it instead of Firefox. Some web sites only work properly with chromium derivatives, I use Vivaldi for that.

When it comes to addons, well, I really use only 1: uBlock origin, it makes the browsing experience tolerable even on firefox. It's simple, the web is a polluted environment that needs an air freshener.

I think it was faster than firefox, but overall Firefox is faster nowadays due to tricks and multi-threading perhaps.

I realized long ago that the addons stuff is something I don't want to deal with, so as long as uBlock origin works as expected, there's still hope. My only other need would be an addon to download videos from sites like Youtube. In an ideal world, PM would come with uBlock preinstalled and the project survives with paypal donations or something.

I have palemoon installed, but I rarely use it, I still check the site every now and then to update my squashfs file with the 64 bit version.

I read the issue with modern firefox is that it uses obscure technologies that require a very specialized and obscure build environment, so compiling it is a nightmare of epic proportions, and distros like Debian can't upgrade yet, but at least the obscure organization called Mozilla provides da binaries at their site.

So overall, it's hard to think how to deal with this situation, when the whole world seems to be messed up beyond repair, good luck.

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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by cosmo666 » 2021-12-27, 23:06

I've spent quite a bit of time trying to find an archive containing Palemoon portable version 28.x (28.9 would probably be optimal, but any will do). I have found a 28.x download: palemoon-28.9.1.linux-i686.tar.xz, but I don't know if that's the portable version or not. Frankly, the references to Palemoon archives seems to be in disarray, although I can't document specifically why. As I recall, archives used to be platform-complete and clearly identified portable-install vs. package versions.

My goal is to continue using Palemoon 29.x and beyond, but I would also like to maintain legacy installs of the portable version on some of my network platforms. If anyone can point me at a repository with legacy (28.x) Palemoon portable downloads, much appreciated.

Re: Supporting Palemoon project ongoing...

Aside from continuing to express appreciation for the hard-work the developers have done maintaining and advancing this critically important browser, I wish there were a way I could do more, and I have a suggestion as to how that might work:

Establish a 'Palemoon Professional Subscriber' with the following benefits:
Access to a quarterly updated 'Palemoon Source Build Container' (Virtualbox (Linux).ovf perhaps?),
fully provisioned, with complete sources + guaranteed build/make files for Windows, Linux,
and Apple target platforms. ($120 per year?)

If that sounds interesting to anyone at Palemoon project, I'm willing to serve as test case #1.

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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by pm4eva » 2022-01-04, 09:22

http://linux.palemoon.org/
It is not necessary to install Pale Moon to use it. Pale Moon for Linux is distributed as a xz-compressed tarball that can be extracted and run from any location on your system.
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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by BlakeyRat » 2022-01-12, 19:17

Moonchild wrote:
2021-12-14, 14:59
  • Lack of participation in the extension ecosystem by users. Unlike what happened in the heyday of Mozilla, current users apparently feel underqualified to even try
Yes, I am one of those people. I spent some time trying to create extensions for both Firefox and Palemoon and gave up because I found it too complicated. More importantly however, I don't have a lot of interest in creating extensions for Palemoon for one simple reason - I don't need them.

I only use one extension - uBlock Origin. I spend a lot of time every day using Palemoon and it works perfectly fine for me, and does exactly what I need without any other extensions.

I think that is a very big compliment to the people working on Palemoon because it shows that you know what you are doing and you know how to create a browser that does what people need, without a lot of extra crap "features" thrown in and without the need for a lot of extensions to get added functions.

I like Palemoon the way it is and hope you continue.

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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by Drugwash » 2022-01-13, 03:04

BlakeyRat wrote:
2022-01-12, 19:17
I don't have a lot of interest in creating extensions for Palemoon for one simple reason - I don't need them.
That is not necessarily true for all other users, it is a superficial - or egotistical, if you want - point of view. No offense intended.
The user base is formed by people from many regions of the world - hence different languages - with different habits, some maybe acquired in years and years of computing/browsing, and different needs - be it at work or at home or both - some of which being physical needs, such as people with bad eyesight that need zooming in or distraction-free or bigger buttons or support for screen readers; or, on the contrary, pages with huge fonts that need zoomed out. Some things depend on the hardware, there may be extensions that deal with various monitor sizes, for example. Some people use various online services for which they need dedicated extensions. Some people are trusty, others are paranoid, so they use many layers of protection through assorted extensions. And I could go on and on.

The point is, your personal needs can vary greatly from other users' needs, and that prompts the existence of extensions that fulfill their needs as well as yours. The core can only do so much before it gets bloated like other browsers, and we don't want that, neither does the dev team.
But... if you personally don't need any bells and whistles that doesn't mean you can't try to help others if you have the knowledge, the will, and spare time to do it. It's an exercise in being altruistic, as corny as it may sound for this century and these troubled times.
If you can't or won't it's alright, not judging you. Just saying my own, maybe broader point of view, which applies to anybody else in the same situation. Again, no offense intended. :wave:

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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by ketmar » 2022-01-13, 10:24

Drugwash wrote:
2022-01-13, 03:04
It's an exercise in being altruistic
absolutely unfun expirience. if you're writing software for others (it doesn't matter if it is free or not), you are taking some obligations with that. documentation, maintenance, bugfixing, improvements… it all takes time, and quite soon people will start take it as granted, and complain if you don't have enough resources anymore, or simply when they thing that you're doing it "too slow". or when the author simply takes the direction some people don't like.

i, for example, have several extensions i wrote from the scratch (and several more i forked and patched), but i have no intentions to officially publish them. the code is FOSS, of course, but i am not interested in maintenance and other burden (tbh, i simply have no time and resources to do that). and i bet that there are more people like me, who silently wrote something for their own use, and didn't bother sharing.

i mean, the desire to be altruistic wears off quite fast, down to: "i gave you the code, now you're on your own." and even down to: "my code is lying somewhere on some server. but i won't even bother telling others about that, i did all i could — i uploaded it for others to get."

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Drugwash
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Re: A change of direction for Pale Moon in 2022

Unread post by Drugwash » 2022-01-13, 11:54

To a certain degree I understand. Certain rules - or demands - may put people off. I feel it too in regard to extensions here but only because my life is completely unpredictable - as in jobless and living off a couple strangers' help. Otherwise I could've taken some commitment. I'm in the "you're on your own zone" but with different things, not Pale Moon extensions. If you have a better, more stable life then you could try to commit to the community.

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