Begging addons developers

Add-ons for Pale Moon and other applications
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Re: Begging addons developers

Unread post by nguyen9173 » 2022-06-15, 15:01

UCyborg wrote:
2022-06-03, 16:59
moonbat wrote:
2022-06-03, 03:06
nguyen9173 wrote:
2022-06-02, 18:33
Browsing videos on youtube interface with Pale Moon is unbearable.
Try this userscript (requires Greasemonkey for Pale Moon), it makes Youtube more compact and adds a few extra features. Or you can use my extension PMPlayer (link in signature) which plays videos in a floating popup window so you can look at other tabs.
While nice additions, SeaMonkey simply crunches through scripts faster than Pale Moon. To me, this is obvious from general browsing and Speedometer 2.0, SeaMonkey's score is about twice of Pale Moon here.

And GreaseMonkey for Pale Moon could use an update, it's supposed to be able to check for script updates. PM version seems broken in that regard.
No one maintaining GM for Pale Moon. BTW, you are right. SeaMonkey is clearly faster than Pale Moon both in processing scripts and rendering pages. I afraid to speak this out but you helped me anyway. Thank you.

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Re: Begging addons developers

Unread post by Goodydino » 2022-06-15, 20:28

The version of Greasemonkey I use is version 3.8, which was written for Firefox. It is in the Classic Addons Archive, which you can access if you have that extension. That version of Greasemonkey does check for updates for scripts.

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Re: Begging addons developers

Unread post by therube » 2022-06-16, 18:52

The XUL addons now can only found via JustOff's ca-archive unfortunately
They may also be available at Add-ons.Thunderbird.Net or from particular extension author websites, like, https://flashgot.net/getit.

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Re: Begging addons developers

Unread post by Mæstro » 2022-06-17, 16:18

nguyen9173 wrote:
2022-06-15, 15:01
No one maintaining GM for Pale Moon. BTW, you are right. SeaMonkey is clearly faster than Pale Moon both in processing scripts and rendering pages. I afraid to speak this out but you helped me anyway. Thank you.
I avoid SeaMonkey for failing to commit to preserving its traditional features. Forsaking NPAPI is the red line for me; I still use Flash. Shifting to WebExtensions, which I dislike more for their appearance than inner workings, is another regression. Other than these and the policy motivating these decisions, I would be neutral between SeaMonkey and Pale Moon. (For that, I am neutral to rendering engines unless they restrict the UI.) I am thankful that Pale Moon is devoted to keeping the old ways viable with security patches and more. For me, aesthetic is chief.
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Re: Begging addons developers

Unread post by nguyen9173 » 2022-06-17, 17:53

TheRealMaestro wrote:
2022-06-17, 16:18
I avoid SeaMonkey for failing to commit to preserving its traditional features. Forsaking NPAPI is the red line for me; I still use Flash. Shifting to WebExtensions, which I dislike more for their appearance than inner workings, is another regression. Other than these and the policy motivating these decisions, I would be neutral between SeaMonkey and Pale Moon. (For that, I am neutral to rendering engines unless they restrict the UI.) I am thankful that Pale Moon is devoted to keeping the old ways viable with security patches and more. For me, aesthetic is chief.
Yes. I agreed. These changes of SeaMonkey is disappointed. But, you know, SeaMonkey uses the same code as Thunderbird to power their Mail and News parts. They are not just a browser like Pale Moon. They are a web suite. Always a product of reusing code from Firefox and Thunderbird to create a Web Suite, now Thunderbird decided to follow Mozilla then SeaMonkey has to follow too.

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Re: Begging addons developers

Unread post by Mæstro » 2022-06-17, 18:03

Aye, I had this slavish deference in mind when speaking of SeaMonkey’s failure to commit. I recall reading vaguely that Moonchild had tried in 2017 to ally the SeaMonkey Project and Waterfox to preserve XUL and NPAPI, but he was rebuffed, for they had not seen them as viable in the long term. Interlink (and soon, Epyrus) and Ambassador, beside early Mozilla and SeaMonkey, prove that one could maintain these things. The failure is in organisation.
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Re: Begging addons developers

Unread post by nguyen9173 » 2022-06-18, 16:23

TheRealMaestro wrote:
2022-06-17, 18:03
Aye, I had this slavish deference in mind when speaking of SeaMonkey’s failure to commit. I recall reading vaguely that Moonchild had tried in 2017 to ally the SeaMonkey Project and Waterfox to preserve XUL and NPAPI, but he was rebuffed, for they had not seen them as viable in the long term. Interlink (and soon, Epyrus) and Ambassador, beside early Mozilla and SeaMonkey, prove that one could maintain these things. The failure is in organisation.
SeaMonkey used to be a Mozilla supported project. Even though now being dropped support by Mozilla they will pretty much follow Mozilla. They don't have the mindset to stand independent. BTW, SeaMonkey is quite different from Interlink and Epyrus. These are like Thunderbird is just an email client. SeaMonkey is an internet suite.

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Re: Begging addons developers

Unread post by Mæstro » 2022-06-18, 18:16

An internet suite is a browser with e-mail client, instant messenger and sundries tacked on. Ambassador, our IRC client, is likewise available either alone or as a Pale Moon extension. Compare how an office suite bundles word processor, spreadsheet manager &c, or an antivirus suite, a file scanner and firewall. Software with vaguely kindred function are allied, but they could just as well be split.
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Re: Begging addons developers

Unread post by nguyen9173 » 2022-06-19, 00:50

TheRealMaestro wrote:
2022-06-18, 18:16
An internet suite is a browser with e-mail client, instant messenger and sundries tacked on. Ambassador, our IRC client, is likewise available either alone or as a Pale Moon extension. Compare how an office suite bundles word processor, spreadsheet manager &c, or an antivirus suite, a file scanner and firewall. Software with vaguely kindred function are allied, but they could just as well be split.
Theoretically yes. But no one on the UXP world has ever decided to put together all of these pieces into a big internet suite like SeaMonkey.

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Re: Begging addons developers

Unread post by nguyen9173 » 2022-06-19, 01:02

TheRealMaestro wrote:
2022-06-17, 18:03
Aye, I had this slavish deference in mind when speaking of SeaMonkey’s failure to commit. I recall reading vaguely that Moonchild had tried in 2017 to ally the SeaMonkey Project and Waterfox to preserve XUL and NPAPI, but he was rebuffed, for they had not seen them as viable in the long term. Interlink (and soon, Epyrus) and Ambassador, beside early Mozilla and SeaMonkey, prove that one could maintain these things. The failure is in organisation.
SeaMonkey organization is bad. They still keep the mindset of their Mozilla days. Full of meetings and meetings... They are bloated and slow in progress. Even though the members if I count is not any fewer than the Pale Moon devs. But there is only about two guys really do works. Most of the development is up on one guy. We have many job titles such as infrastructure developers (DevOps someone? They still keep the mindset of a corporation project, their organization is completely different than a personal project like Pale Moon). That guy ewong which is their infrastructure developer has messed up their very own development infrastructure for a long time only recently he could sorted some of his messes out. He admitted this on the SeaMonkey blog. He is the maintainer of that blog.

See: only two guys actually work, anyone else's names are just to be listed:

https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/Stat ... us_Updates

Read this blog with all of his apologies for messed thing up and his amateur way of doing things that broken update for a release (he set the wrong update channel, so no automatic update but users have to download and install again):

https://blog.seamonkey-project.org/

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Re: Begging addons developers

Unread post by Mæstro » 2022-06-19, 03:37

Off-topic:
You can edit your posts, that you can avoid double (or treble!) posting and notifying me needlessly. Moreover, if you are replying to the post just above you, there is no need to quote it.
As said, I am neutral to the engine itself as long as the interface and NPAPI support hold. This being said, the UXP developers work hard to keep Goanna viable, while SeaMonkey has been going the wrong way in policy for years, and practise over a year. We are not here to draw users with a fish hook into a brave, new world. The modern Web is bad, yet Pale Moon is good enough, and I can say this about few browsers indeed.
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Re: Begging addons developers

Unread post by athenian200 » 2022-06-19, 05:50

nguyen9173 wrote:
2022-06-19, 01:19
Yes, Pale Moon, Ambassador and Epyrus could be make possible. But only maintaining and constantly patching to catch up with the ever changing web but no new actual improvements. Don't said old things are good and stable so no need for any new "improvements". Only because Mozilla and Google abused this word "improvements" make it a bad word in many's eyes. Pale Moon has no performance improvements. Pretty much stuck with old script and rendering engine.
These applications can be as good as the community makes them. The more people put in the work to develop the browser engine in a positive direction, the less true your statement is. The only reason things haven't progressed more quickly is because we've had trouble attracting the number of volunteers necessary. We certainly are not "stuck" with an old script and rendering engine, and people have definitely made improvements recently. We obviously need more of those, but we need more help and less demanding that we just "do better now" using what's already been made by the very organizations we don't want to rely on or respect. If you want something based on what's already been made, you have plenty of choices. We are not interested in providing that, and I think we've made that clear several times.
Regardless how you rebranding things, they are still very old Firefox engines and they are outdated. There are works to implement only the most crucial new web features because sites are constantly broken. Anytime is the blame on Google. Yes, Google is bad. But we have to keep up with them to keep relevant anyway.
They may have been originally based on very old Firefox engines, but I think if you use the original version of the browser it was based on for a while (Firefox 52), you will come to appreciate just how many improvements have been made relative to the original fork point. There are improvements, they are just not happening fast enough for you. You know, that mentality "Google is bad, but we have to keep up with them to stay relevant," is precisely why Firefox sucks now. Google's agile development and constant changing of standards is precisely what makes it difficult to have a true alternative to their engine that is fully compatible with the modern web. Keeping up with Google by doing whatever it takes is not a solution, it's exactly the mentality that led to the web being the way it is. If we do what it takes to "keep up with Google" in the way you suggest, then we would wind up turning Pale Moon into a rebranded modern Firefox fork or a Chromium-based browser. And there is already a Firefox, several forks of Firefox, and a ton of Chromium-based browsers already, the world is lousy with them. Windows comes with one. The world does not need another browser that "keeps up with Google." You have plenty of those, and the limitations they have in terms of customizability are inherent to those web engines.
These UXP projects are in deep maintenance mode. They are not viable in long term. That's right. Accept it. The fact is Pale Moon is at version 31.1 and still kicking is an unbelievable thing. Enjoy them when they are still in good shape. And prepare alternatives when they are no longer.
Well, what you are proposing isn't new at all. It's precisely the same approach the open source community has taken to trying to "fight" the direction of Google and Mozilla over and over again, and it has failed every single time. What they do is they fork the final maintained version that cut the fewest desirable features, and try to keep it patched up as long as possible, resisting the patches that break things. Then eventually when things start getting "rough," they fork a more modern version that is missing all the features they wanted to keep and accept that those are "gone," and refocus everyone's attention on a new controversy with the newer versions, and come up with an another justification for temporarily patching up a slightly less sucky version until they can't anymore, and the cycle just repeats, always moving in the direction laid out by Mozilla and Google just more slowly.

The reason things are so rough and we get so many complaints about compatibility, is because we haven't taken the easy way out and been quick to abandon the features we said before were important to us, just for the sake of having a more web-compatible browser. That's not our goal, and there are plenty of alternatives out there to choose from that do place that goal higher up. If what we're working on doesn't suit your needs, please go use one of those projects and stop demanding that we offer what those other projects offer. We aren't interested in competing with them.
"The Athenians, however, represent the unity of these opposites; in them, mind or spirit has emerged from the Theban subjectivity without losing itself in the Spartan objectivity of ethical life. With the Athenians, the rights of the State and of the individual found as perfect a union as was possible at all at the level of the Greek spirit." -- Hegel's philosophy of Mind

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Re: Begging addons developers

Unread post by nguyen9173 » 2022-06-19, 08:12

TheRealMaestro wrote:
2022-06-19, 03:37
Off-topic:
You can edit your posts, that you can avoid double (or treble!) posting and notifying me needlessly. Moreover, if you are replying to the post just above you, there is no need to quote it.
As said, I am neutral to the engine itself as long as the interface and NPAPI support hold. This being said, the UXP developers work hard to keep Goanna viable, while SeaMonkey has been going the wrong way in policy for years, and practise over a year. We are not here to draw users with a fish hook into a brave, new world. The modern Web is bad, yet Pale Moon is good enough, and I can say this about few browsers indeed.
You know why SeaMonkey is faster than Pale Moon? Because Pale Moon and UXP are pretty much Firefox 52.9 ESR but SeaMonkey is Firefox 60.8 ESR with patches to keep XUL based addons. The later version of Firefox after 60.8 ESR remove any traces of XUL completely so if SeaMonkey want to base on newer Firefox they pretty much have to abandon XUL and go with WebExtension too. Of course someone could try doing what they are doing with 60.8 ESR that is providing patches to integrate XUL support back. But the work is nontrivial and the SeaMonkey guys consider they don't have the manpower to do this so they choose to embrace WebExtension. But, they will not join WebExtension group soon. The WebExtension frontend on SeaMonkey is non-existing and will not be implemented soon.

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Re: Begging addons developers

Unread post by nguyen9173 » 2022-06-19, 08:20

athenian200 wrote:
2022-06-19, 05:50
nguyen9173 wrote:
2022-06-19, 01:19
Yes, Pale Moon, Ambassador and Epyrus could be make possible. But only maintaining and constantly patching to catch up with the ever changing web but no new actual improvements. Don't said old things are good and stable so no need for any new "improvements". Only because Mozilla and Google abused this word "improvements" make it a bad word in many's eyes. Pale Moon has no performance improvements. Pretty much stuck with old script and rendering engine.
These applications can be as good as the community makes them. The more people put in the work to develop the browser engine in a positive direction, the less true your statement is. The only reason things haven't progressed more quickly is because we've had trouble attracting the number of volunteers necessary. We certainly are not "stuck" with an old script and rendering engine, and people have definitely made improvements recently. We obviously need more of those, but we need more help and less demanding that we just "do better now" using what's already been made by the very organizations we don't want to rely on or respect. If you want something based on what's already been made, you have plenty of choices. We are not interested in providing that, and I think we've made that clear several times.
You said just to be have said. Your Interlink/Epyrus is anything but a clone of the old Thunderbird 52 based on UXP? Will it get any new features and improvements from later Thunderbirds such as Thunderbird 91.1 ESR? Will you able to get anyone to contribute? Contributing something big rather than simple fixes and workarounds? Very unlikely. You just dump the binary out so the nostalgia community could have something to use since they refused to upgrade to the new versions and that's it. Deep maintenance is just an underrated statement.

You have done the best you can to attract new developers. You will have almost no new developers at all as your community almost has no new users at all. New users come and go. Very few of them keep using Pale Moon. Look at the palemoon subreddit. Accept it. This is limit of this community.

(I'm an old user. My account got deleted when I'm inactive because I switched to IceCat64 for a while. I only come back after the drama was end and Moonchild seems to accept listening to the voice of the community again, to know what the community truly want).

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Re: Begging addons developers

Unread post by athenian200 » 2022-06-19, 08:33

nguyen9173 wrote:
2022-06-19, 08:20
You have done the best you can to attract new developers. You will have almost no new developers at all as your community almost has no new users at all. New users come and go. Very few of them keep using Pale Moon. Look at the palemoon subreddit. Accept it. This is limit of this community.
If that's the way you feel, then please leave us alone to keep doing what we want to do. We don't care about your "insights," they are what people have been telling us for years and we haven't cared about them before. Why would we care now? If we were satisfied with the kind of "pragmatic" viewpoint you are offering us, we would have settled or made our peace with the way "things are going" a long time ago.
"The Athenians, however, represent the unity of these opposites; in them, mind or spirit has emerged from the Theban subjectivity without losing itself in the Spartan objectivity of ethical life. With the Athenians, the rights of the State and of the individual found as perfect a union as was possible at all at the level of the Greek spirit." -- Hegel's philosophy of Mind

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Re: Begging addons developers

Unread post by nguyen9173 » 2022-06-19, 08:36

athenian200 wrote:
2022-06-19, 05:50
Regardless how you rebranding things, they are still very old Firefox engines and they are outdated. There are works to implement only the most crucial new web features because sites are constantly broken. Anytime is the blame on Google. Yes, Google is bad. But we have to keep up with them to keep relevant anyway.
They may have been originally based on very old Firefox engines, but I think if you use the original version of the browser it was based on for a while (Firefox 52), you will come to appreciate just how many improvements have been made relative to the original fork point. There are improvements, they are just not happening fast enough for you. You know, that mentality "Google is bad, but we have to keep up with them to stay relevant," is precisely why Firefox sucks now. Google's agile development and constant changing of standards is precisely what makes it difficult to have a true alternative to their engine that is fully compatible with the modern web. Keeping up with Google by doing whatever it takes is not a solution, it's exactly the mentality that led to the web being the way it is. If we do what it takes to "keep up with Google" in the way you suggest, then we would wind up turning Pale Moon into a rebranded modern Firefox fork or a Chromium-based browser. And there is already a Firefox, several forks of Firefox, and a ton of Chromium-based browsers already, the world is lousy with them. Windows comes with one. The world does not need another browser that "keeps up with Google." You have plenty of those, and the limitations they have in terms of customizability are inherent to those web engines.
It's pretty much the old Firefox 52.9 ESR engines with some fixes and a few new implementations for web compatibility because the users whined too much and he can't escape from having to implement them but he only implement a few enough to fix a handful of crucial sites. Of course including security fixes imported/cherry picked from upstream Mozilla codebase (at anytime in history did Pale Moon is not a downstream fork of Firefox I wonder?). Finally, a bunch of useragent overrides in about:config as workaround to problematic sites. That's it.

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Re: Begging addons developers

Unread post by nguyen9173 » 2022-06-19, 08:42

athenian200 wrote:
2022-06-19, 05:50
These UXP projects are in deep maintenance mode. They are not viable in long term. That's right. Accept it. The fact is Pale Moon is at version 31.1 and still kicking is an unbelievable thing. Enjoy them when they are still in good shape. And prepare alternatives when they are no longer.
Well, what you are proposing isn't new at all. It's precisely the same approach the open source community has taken to trying to "fight" the direction of Google and Mozilla over and over again, and it has failed every single time. What they do is they fork the final maintained version that cut the fewest desirable features, and try to keep it patched up as long as possible, resisting the patches that break things. Then eventually when things start getting "rough," they fork a more modern version that is missing all the features they wanted to keep and accept that those are "gone," and refocus everyone's attention on a new controversy with the newer versions, and come up with an another justification for temporarily patching up a slightly less sucky version until they can't anymore, and the cycle just repeats, always moving in the direction laid out by Mozilla and Google just more slowly.

The reason things are so rough and we get so many complaints about compatibility, is because we haven't taken the easy way out and been quick to abandon the features we said before were important to us, just for the sake of having a more web-compatible browser. That's not our goal, and there are plenty of alternatives out there to choose from that do place that goal higher up. If what we're working on doesn't suit your needs, please go use one of those projects and stop demanding that we offer what those other projects offer. We aren't interested in competing with them.
Forking and re-forking a newer version again. Are you pretty much describing your very own project? I remember when it started Pale Moon was not forked from Firefox 52.9 ESR. After being beaten up too much by web compatibility he decided to fork again the last XUL supported ESR and he can't reuse this trick again because this is the last XUL supported so he can't fork any newer versions.

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Re: Begging addons developers

Unread post by athenian200 » 2022-06-19, 08:43

nguyen9173 wrote:
2022-06-19, 08:36
It's pretty much the old Firefox 52.9 ESR engines with some fixes and a few new implementations for web compatibility because the users whined too much and he can't escape from having to implement them but he only implement a few enough to fix a handful of crucial sites. Of course including security fixes imported/cherry picked from upstream Mozilla codebase (at anytime in history did Pale Moon is not a downstream fork of Firefox I wonder?). Finally, a bunch of useragent overrides in about:config as workaround to problematic sites. That's it.
You may think you are pointing out the obvious here. Well, maybe you are the one missing something that should be equally obvious...

We don't like most of the newer features that newer Firefox and Thunderbird have. We don't agree with the values and design philosophy of the modern web and the people who have designed it. And we're fine making a lot of compromises and pushing really hard to make this work for as long as possible. You are talking to us like normal people who accept conventional wisdom. We are fine with what we have and slowly improving it over time regardless of what happens in the world around us. Maybe that doesn't make sense to those outside our community, but you don't have to understand. All you have to do is let us be.
"The Athenians, however, represent the unity of these opposites; in them, mind or spirit has emerged from the Theban subjectivity without losing itself in the Spartan objectivity of ethical life. With the Athenians, the rights of the State and of the individual found as perfect a union as was possible at all at the level of the Greek spirit." -- Hegel's philosophy of Mind

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Re: Begging addons developers

Unread post by nguyen9173 » 2022-06-19, 08:45

athenian200 wrote:
2022-06-19, 08:33
nguyen9173 wrote:
2022-06-19, 08:20
You have done the best you can to attract new developers. You will have almost no new developers at all as your community almost has no new users at all. New users come and go. Very few of them keep using Pale Moon. Look at the palemoon subreddit. Accept it. This is limit of this community.
If that's the way you feel, then please leave us alone to keep doing what we want to do. We don't care about your "insights," they are what people have been telling us for years and we haven't cared about them before. Why would we care now? If we were satisfied with the kind of "pragmatic" viewpoint you are offering us, we would have settled or made our peace with the way "things are going" a long time ago.
You asked me to tell what I think then I tell u. Keep enjoying Pale Moon when it's still viable, and move to something else when it's no longer is my way. I always have IceCat64 as the backup, and of course SeaMonkey.

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Re: Begging addons developers

Unread post by jobbautista9 » 2022-06-19, 09:05

nguyen9173 wrote:
2022-06-19, 00:50
Theoretically yes. But no one on the UXP world has ever decided to put together all of these pieces into a big internet suite like SeaMonkey.
Yes there is; Hyperbola did it with their Iceape-UXP project. And thanks to the fact that we always use the Comm Build System derived from Thunderbird, which cleanly separates the application from the platform, every UXP application can be kept up-to-date by simply just updating the platform. This is an innovation which isn't present in Firefox, which puts both the browser application and platform in mozilla-central.
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