Who created the extensions we use? (normal users vs experts discussion)

[Bilbo47]

Those were not regular Firefox users who created extensions.

Plenty of them were made by regular users. Not all of course. the vast majority? Regular users.

Disagree. Anyone who writes and publishes an extension is by definition no longer a normal user. In fact, anyone who uses their own extension in their installation of a browser is no longer in the majority-pool of normal users, regardless of whether that extension gets used by anyone else.

[Moonchild]

Anyone who writes and publishes an extension is by definition no longer a normal user.

Disagree. By that mode anyone who customizes their browser with changes to the UI is also no longer a "normal user" and by extension, that means anyone who doesn't use the browser in a strict out-of-the-box way would also not be a normal user. Maybe that kind of thinking is valid for Chrome, but not here.

[Drugwash]

No. Please stop before you hurt yourself.
(Un)marking a checkbox or two in a tiny dialog is in no freakin' way the same thing as writing an extension from scratch or even modifying an existing one.
And even changing a few settings in one's own setup is in no way comparable to maintaining an extension for an entire group of simple users.

[Moonchild]

No. Please stop before you hurt yourself.

So where do you draw the line?

If someone uses the customization window to change the UI around and potentially break everything?
If someone uses about:config?
If they use UserChrome.css?
If they use greaseMonkey or other in-browser scripting extensions?
If they use an example to make a minimal extension of 5 lines of code to make something work the way they want?
If they decide to share that with friends?
If they decide to share that with the world?

As you can see there is no clear divide between a "normal user" and whatever you want to label the "non-normal-user" class you're struggling to define.

Maybe you should stop before that knife you're trying to use to desperately draw a sharp line slips...

[Drugwash]

Everything beyond first line requires at least the slightest knowledge in programming, even if it is simple CSS syntax. And the vast majority of people that are not working as qualified programmers do not know squat about creating/editing a CSS sheet, let alone more complex things as javascript, Java, JSON, XML and so on. Yes, regular people can attempt doing that and it's commendable, but until they get a safe degree of knowledge that can ensure their management of whatever problems may arise they shouldn't be considered "add-on creators" or whatever.

I started cracking Z80 games in the '90s using assembler so I know what programming is and what is not. You yourself as a definitely much knowledgeable programmer should admit it is not that easy to step into this world. Changing a hex value for a CSS color is MUCH more than a regular user could ever do. And that is, sadly, a fact.

[Bilbo47]

anyone who changes the UI is also no longer a "normal user"

That depends. Selecting built-in options from the "Customize" menu is yes normal usage. Adding or changing CSS in a user.chrome or whatever file is not normal usage. There is an actual level of technical knowledge required to use CSS effectively, far beyond figuring out what checkboxes and dropdowns do. Installing an advertised extension is yes-normal, because doing so is published and promoted as supported and encouraged. Hacking a GUID or anything deeper in extension development is not normal, because it's advertised as "not supported".

anyone who doesn't use the browser out-of-the-box would also not be normal

Again nope. Activating any/all of the tweaks available out of the box is yes normal. Activating tweaks via about:config or otherwise going behind the UI's back is beyond normal.

that kind of thinking [might be] valid for Chrome, but not here.

This tells me your target audience is not the Chrome user-base. Well sure, fine. But a tool that 'must be' tinkered with to become useful has the same problem as Windows versus Linux: too many people will be unequipped to try it.

Maybe we a have different concepts of what the default user is? This mismatch is parallel with mis-estimating the difficulty of getting started with extensions. I mean, if the hurdles were really that easy, then we would have seen more people get involved over the past few years, over what actually happened.

[Moonchild]

Everything beyond first line requires at least the slightest knowledge in programming, even if it is simple CSS syntax. And the vast majority of people that are not working as qualified programmers do not know squat about creating/editing a CSS sheet, let alone more complex things as javascript, Java, JSON, XML and so on. Yes, regular people can attempt doing that and it's commendable, but until they get a safe degree of knowledge that can ensure their management of whatever problems may arise they shouldn't be considered "add-on creators" or whatever.

We clearly disagree in that case, and so dothe many hundreds of people who used their brain, examples and a simple "let's look up how to do this" to do way more than where you draw the line.
My point, however, that i was trying to make was that there is no sharp divide, and it is and have been "normal users" who created the vast majority of all browser extensions. That is a fact, not speculation. The average quality of the extensions also serves as somewhat of a testament to that. It's fine if you don't want to concede that, but don't say I should "stop before I hurt myself" as a response because it's not a clear-cut "this group versus that group" with determining factor X that is black or white. It just isn't.

I started cracking Z80 games in the '90s using assembler so I know what programming is and what is not.

You're saying I don't know what programming is and what it is not? You think you "outrank" me in terms of programming history? I'd rather not get as low brow as that kind of argument, so let's not. (You'd probably lose anyway )

Maybe we a have different concepts of what the default user is?

Maybe not so much "the default user" which in 2021 is most likely a consumer and nothing else if you look at mainstream. But that wasn't the term -- the term was "normal" user. And we're not exactly mainstream here either, so can we expect at least somewhat more of an interest in the technology we're employing here? I think we can.

Either way to the both of you, we can disagree and agree to disagree. So let's do that and not drag this out into some kind of long-winded discussion about the definition of an "extension programmer". That isn't what this topic was started for -- and if you feel the need to continue it, please do so in a better topic.

[Drugwash]

[...] My point, however, that i was trying to make was that there is no sharp divide, and it is and have been "normal users" who created the vast majority of all browser extensions. That is a fact, not speculation. The average quality of the extensions also serves as somewhat of a testament to that. [...]

It may be difficult to assess whether those "normal users" were quite as normal as you believe in terms of programming knowledge; it may be that they did have certain prior knowledge, be it from school classes or self-teaching. Of course it is also possible, as I already acknowledged, that people just started learning with their very first extension. They may have nailed it from the start if there was something dead simple. But those dead simple things are usually not what the other users need. And the not-so-simple things cannot be safely created by programming newbies. That's what I'm trying to say.

You're saying I don't know what programming is and what it is not?

You can't be as drunk as myself now to actually believe that! You know darn well I was just saying I knew what real programming was, as compared to someone who may just be trolling or whatever. Which means I'm not just picking an argue with you for some stupid reason - I'm trying to get us both to a real common ground where things can be done the right way. I do genuinely care about this project because I'm a "stupid idealist" as some may call me. So yeah, let's try to be constructive here.

[Mæstro]

I think the normal and expert user can be defined not by whether they can perform certain tasks, but the degree to which they can act independently. The normal user can follow a guide that says to toggle X in about:config, add Y to userchrome.css or paste Z into GreaseMonkey, but the underlying processes are at best fuzzy to him. He cannot act without outside instruction but by painful, most often fruitless or even harmful guesswork. The ‘normal user’ has no substantial informatics background and will never get one; his profession is another. Someone writing a post here or on a wiki has supports that let him write without knowing any HTML. A typical Redditor works with modified Markdown, but if he were set to write a Neocities page, he would be lost. Normal users like myself can know somewhat about some underlying functions, but it is rather aloof: it is rather how I know about Augustan Rome, not how I know the Leipzig plaza.

This discussion reminds me of one I had had with a friend last week about Linux’s barriers to entry. We could tell two kinds of distribution apart: welcoming distros (Ubuntu and derivatives, LMDE, Manjaro…) that enable the user to perform all ordinary tasks, including administrative ones like installing new packages, through the GUI alone as one would in either chief proprietary OS, and skilled ones (Debian, Gentoo…) that are aimed at proficient users (those interested in their computer’s fine workings), demanding terminal usage, compiling from source or other such skills. Estimating from a survey of distro usage suggests three quarters of Linux users use welcoming distributions, where the barriers are much lower. I think this welcoming-skilled distinction, or something like it, could well explain some of the generational divide that Moonchild had mentioned. I was born 1998, so the time when the ordinary computer user could be expected to be comfortable with writing his own batch files is behind me. While I have a friend born 2004 who has become an avid Arch user, people like him who like to tinker are the exception.

Firefox before Australis was accessible and welcoming, and Pale Moon is also. A genuinely skilled browser would be Surf, which is distributed only as source code and expects the user to make cosmetic changes by adjusting the style sheets and recompiling. Even at Firefox’s height, if we estimate liberally from the Classic Add-ons Archive that there were about 100.000 Firefox extensions in 2010, each designed by a different person, this is out of a community of over 360 million users: roughly 0,03% of Firefox users (actually lower) had ever developed an extension. The vibrant extension-building community then was a function of scale, not community attitudes.

[Moonchild]

And yet if you look at several markers in those many thousands of extensions it's clear that most were made by people who were learning as they went along, re-used a lot of existing code, following -at the very least partially - examples, and using their brain, and certainly didn't start out being experts or "skilled" at all, by a long shot. Evidence of that process is also to be found in public record on various fora.

The difference between what you apparently consider "normal users" and "skilled extension developers" is, in my opinion, a wrong assumption. There was no pre-existing experience. There was no skill. It was developed. I stand by my opinion they were regular users. Almost all of them. They used Firefox and they made it their own, with plenty of mistakes along the way.
The real difference? They were willing to learn. And that might be an attitude that is indeed lost on most these days.

[Drugwash]

The real difference? They were willing to learn. And that might be an attitude that is indeed lost on most these days.

I'm with you on this one. People should be willing to step up and learn new things, not for profit or fame but for their own enhancement.
We just cannot assume they would, or somehow force them into that. Not everybody has the required capabilities.
On the other hand you may not want a few hundred half-baked (at most) almost-useless things cluttering the add-ons list. A few badly crafted ones would be enough to ruin Pale Moon's reputation.

[Mæstro]

…it's clear that most were made by people who were learning as they went along….
The difference between what you apparently consider "normal users" and "skilled extension developers" is, in my opinion, a wrong assumption. There was no pre-existing experience. There was no skill. It was developed. I stand by my opinion they were regular users. Almost all of them. They used Firefox and they made it their own, with plenty of mistakes along the way.

You are right that this skill can be gained outside formal education. I believe however in that devoting themselves so much to learning how to make their browser their own, they cease to be normal users. They were, but are no longer. For reasons I hope are apparent below, this accords you, who can and do devote yourselves this way, special honour, as befits any learnt skill. Each of us has his own talents.

The real difference? They were willing to learn. And that might be an attitude that is indeed lost on most these days.

It is lost on me. I believe that they were willing and able to learn. Nine hundred and ninety-nine out of a thousand of us are not, and I believe this is not due to mere laziness or apathy, but outside conditions that we cannot simply shrug off by applying enough effort. Such application is often impossible. We might have jobs or studies commanding most of our time and energy, leaving no place for a hobby that would be more like another job. We might be hyperactive, anxious or have other deep-set psychic barriers that affect our whole lives and prevent us staying focused and not panicking when the inevitable mistakes come. There are myriad reasons for myriad users. This change in attitude is indeed a social shift much stronger in the younger generations. I do not expect to convince you, but I would like, as I hope I have been, to approach you in civility to share how things look from the other side.

[moonbat]

Re: Linux, the 'welcoming' distros are also used by power users who need to get up and running quickly and don't want to tinker with the OS if they can help it. I've worked a a developer, I use Eclipse for most of my development and am quite comfortable with the commandline of both Linux and Windows, but I'm not about sit and compile from source just to get something running that I didn't even have to think about in 20 years of using Windows.

For my case, the opposite is true. As a career programmer and user of Firefox since it began as Phoenix, I could have joined the ranks of extension developers way back when but didn't. The reason being that (predating the Apple slogan by years ) 'there was an extension for that' that did what I wanted and even more, and I'm not a person who likes to reinvent the wheel or code from scratch unless there's a very specific itch.

That moment came as a Pale Moon user, first when I used Pure URL and was appalled at the minimal UI it offered, and then when I saw another one called 'Youtube Video Player Popout' that used a javascript generated window to display youtube videos separately, that behaved erratically. The result were the fork of Pure URL, reworked as an overlay extension with support for expanding shortlinks and a proper configuration dialog, and PMPlayer which can play videos from several other video hosts in a floating popup window. Both are linked to in my signature.

My previous programming background did help me get up to speed with XUL/Javascript faster than a novice but as Moonchild says, it is a matter of being willing to learn. And I've seen that right here with other people with no prior programming experience who were able to fork and maintain older extensions.

We might have jobs or studies commanding most of our time and energy, leaving no place for a hobby that would be more like another job.

So do extension authors, you think they're all professional extension developers doing nothing else?
People make time for what they consider a priority, if learning how to do this this isn't one for them, then they shouldn't expect someone else to do it for them for free. The reason ChromeZIlla is the de-facto standard today is because everyone has this attitude and power users who take initiative and control of their internet experience are a vanishing and older minority. Such people are better served by other browsers that make all their choices for them for the sake of 'simplicity'.

We might be hyperactive, anxious or have other deep-set psychic barriers that affect our whole lives and prevent us staying focused and not panicking when the inevitable mistakes come.

Then such people have bigger problems than worrying about broken browser extensions and should prioritize seeking help for those first.

This change in attitude is indeed a social shift much stronger in the younger generations.

Indeed. Flaunting one's mental illness like a badge of courage on social media profiles, or constantly talking about it online has become the thing to do now.

[Mæstro]

So do extension authors, you think they're all professional extension developers doing nothing else? People make time for what they consider a priority….

I do not think they are all professionals. I deny instead that everybody can make time for a passion project because extensions are important to them. That many people can does not mean all can; the athlete’s regimen will not work for the cripple. Some people are strong enough to assume such a passion project beside earning their bread. Others are not, but to be weak is nothing bad or despicable. (This could well be another social attitude that has lately changed.)

Such people are better served by other browsers that make all their choices for them for the sake of 'simplicity'.

I deny this. Each user has his own reason for preferring a given browser, having certain needs for it and wishing it go a certain way. I think Moonchild’s surveying and discussion had given voice to different users’ needs in the right way, and he is acting rightly based on these. I am speaking here to explain one view (my own, the only I can, but surely not the only one) behind why such a large part of the user-base opposes Pale Moon’s old direction.

Then such people have bigger problems than worrying about broken browser extensions and should prioritize seeking help for those first.

I deny this, but to go into it would send the discussion into an irrelevant aside about the nature of mental illness and other disability. It will be enough to say that I think this also reflects changing social attitudes.

[moonbat]

to be weak is nothing bad or despicable

Who here said it was? If one is weak, no one else can fix it for them, and there are other options for them.

why such a large part of the user-base opposes Pale Moon’s old direction

The present reversion to using Firefox's ID so that FF extensions can continue to be installable is a band-aid at best. These same people will again bitch about it when their old extensions eventually break as Pale Moon is forced to keep up with constant Google driven changes to Javascript standards and start expecting Pale Moon devs or someone else to fix them and hand them over on a platter. It is this massive sense of entitlement that is despicable. Let people take charge of their own damn internet experience. If that isn't a priority for them, it is even less of a priority for others who aren't even affected by it. Coming to extension development, there are plenty of resources including a full backup of Mozilla's documentation and tutorials for the few that are willing to learn, as well as help from more experienced devs on this very forum. I started knowing nothing about extension development and have had queries answered along the way by various people, in the browser development subforum.

I deny this, but to go into it would send the discussion into an irrelevant aside about the nature of mental illness and other disability. It will be enough to say that I think this also reflects changing social attitudes.

You can't 'deny' something that you didn't say, given I'm the one that said this and the other stuff and not you. If one is unwell in any way it is again nobody else's responsibility but theirs to seek help for it first and they don't get to use that as an excuse to garner sympathy for unrelated issues.

[Mæstro]

Who here said it was? If one is weak, no one else can fix it for them, and there are other options for them.

Nobody had. I nonetheless do not believe that being weak is something to be ‘fixed’; this is why I say it is not bad.

These same people will again [expletive removed] about it when their old extensions eventually break…and start expecting…someone else to fix them…. It is this massive sense of entitlement that is despicable. Let people take charge of their own [expletive removed] internet experience.

We do not expect, but we ask, even beg if we find ourselves desperate. From our side, these are pleas for help by the helpless. Somebody telling us to help ourselves, or how he has helped himself, does not make us any more able to do so. I do not believe being direct about one’s needs, even if one cannot meet them for oneself, is despicable.

If that isn't a priority for them, it is even less of a priority for others who aren't even affected by it. Coming to extension development, there are plenty of resources….

As said, I believe most are unable for personal reasons that are as different as the people themselves. Not everyone can do as you have done; we are not you. Would you agree that we dispute whether anybody who is willing is therefore able and thus responsible to maintain his own extensions? Because I doubt either of us will convince each other, I think we should aim this dialogue to finding just where we disagree.

[Kris_88]

Of course, anyone can learn anything. The only question is how long it will take and whether the person is ready to devote this time.
JS, XPCOM, XUL, CSS - these are all big and complex things, it takes a lot of time to study. But even this is not enough. There is a browser runtime system that unites them, an internal browser construction, to which add-ons make changes. By the way, developers often forget about this aspect. It's kind of implied, but without it nothing will work. It is absolutely incredible that the user will begin to study all this in order to create an add-on for himself. He is more likely to look for a browser that has the capabilities he needs. And some small things, like keyboard shortcuts, can take a week or two to get used to. This is a matter of habit and nothing else is required.

[Lucio Chiappetti]

the vast majority of people that are not working as qualified programmers do not know squat about creating/editing a CSS sheet, let alone more complex things as javascript, Java, JSON, XML and so on.

I am not a "qualified" programmer (just a retired scientist), although I know some CSS, javascript and Java ... I don't know (nor like the smell of) JSON and XML alhough I'd had once a look to some manuals/tutorials but they did not appeal to me as something I could make use of (unlike e.g. SVG, with which I played, though I like PostScript much more).
I do like customizing my environment for my usage, and I did for pieces of software which are designed to be customizable. For instance, the look-and-feel of my window manager, fvwm, controlled by a single .fvwmrc file, which allows also some external scripting, and quite a learning curve mainly reading through a very long man page. Or the customization of my favourite editor, The Hessling Editor, including writing some macros in REXX (I was not familiar with REXX but its predecessor EXEC2), it also involved reading the help pages, and inspiring to some user-released macros. Of the customization of my favourite mailer, alpine, which essentially involves reading through the single .pinerc file, clicking on the help of each keyword to know if useful to me, and deciding which patches of a suite of available ones (by the main author) to install, occasionally piping to external scripts. Even writing procmail rules for my incoming mail (also requiring careful reading of a few man pages). Even (not just for me but all my institute) editing sendmail.cf (again reading quite a lot of documents).

But for a browser ? While I always did some very very low-level UI customization like suppressing some buttons, or using text buttons instead of icons, I did not know of extensions until Firefox (I was still on that) removed the status bar. I use less than 10, some of which I hardly remember why I added them, some of which look quite intimidating (like ad blockers, or FEBE - which I disabled - or the very useful NoSquint (*). The code is not perspicuous (to me) even for what should be a simple task like "Expire history by day", and I feel lost in lack of a documentation comparable to the one I used for the examples quoted above. For instance if I would start to write an extension to edit the application handler associated to a file type (what for me Linux user would be "the .mailcap") where should I start (I give this example, because sometimes a file is offered a funny handler ... for instance a PNG attachment in another PHPBB forum proposed to be opened with skype !! why ?).
In addition, what is also intimidating is all the business related to licenses and future support.

(*) by the way, I decided to celebrate the incoming new year updating Pale Moon to 29.4.3, just did, and everything is running smoothly. Thanks MC !!

[Drugwash]

the vast majority of people that are not working as qualified programmers do not know squat about creating/editing a CSS sheet, let alone more complex things as javascript, Java, JSON, XML and so on.

I am not a "qualified" programmer (just a retired scientist), although I know some CSS, javascript and Java [...]

You're already one of the minority for that. I used to repair/install/customize/etc the computer for a guy that used to install and program phone switchboards many years ago. He also used to be a taxi driver for many years. But if the, say, media player icon on the desktop wasn't where he knew it (or wasn't at all) he would panic. He wouldn't know how to create a shortcut to some application.
Years ago I tried to familiarize him with Firefox or Pale Moon, that already had a few add-ons set up for a better experience. He couldn't handle choosing the right option when something didn't quite look alright, so he went back to Chrome. One day I went there and saw a neverending pile of advertising popups on the screen; looking in processes there were six chrome.exe running. Closed five of them, popups dissapeared. He couldn't have done that, ever.

Could such person suddenly become a browser extension creator? Yeah, just after I learn how to drive a car - that is, never. We each have our skills and our limitations. And that's why we have to rely on one-another.

[moonbat]

Could such person suddenly become a browser extension creator?

These people are not Pale Moon's target audience. 15 years ago, they would've been using Internet Explorer. 30 years ago, their VCRs would've been perpetually blinking '12:00'. Even Firefox got started as a browser for power users, but lightweight and fast out of the box so you could make it as complex or as barebones as you wanted. It was power users who made it popular by advocating it among friends and family, and eventually IT departments. Firefox started to slide the day they decided to focus on 'simplicity' for the majority in a bid to imitate Chrome, so now Pale Moon is the only browser left for people willing to control their own browsing experience instead of having a brainfart when an icon is moved out of place.

it takes a lot of time to study

There is a browser runtime system that unites them, an internal browser construction, to which add-ons make changes. By the way, developers often forget about this aspect. It's kind of implied, but without it nothing will work. It is absolutely incredible that the user will begin to study all this in order to create an add-on for himself

No there isn't any need to 'study' any more than you need to get a degree in automotive engineering before you can learn how to change your car tyre or install a roof rack. There is the XUL school tutorial for starters, it takes one step by step through the process of making a simple extension. But you need to give enough of a shit to ask what resources are available to learn in order to know that.