[0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

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Moonchild
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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-04-05, 15:50

I'm not going below $25 each, though. I know the effort involved and I'm not going to undercut myself and work for peanuts. I learned that lesson when doing translation work.
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New Tobin Paradigm

Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-04-05, 15:54

Your time is arguably more valuable than mine is given core tangible work on UXP whereas most of mine in on Coordination. Though, I do have Phoebus.

But I also like setting up projects in infra so it is more enjoyable than it should be, especially for dollar signs ;)

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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by Attronarch » 2021-04-05, 16:55

Amazing opportunity.

I'll be happy to fund forking QuoteURLText (last working I have is 1.0.9b.1), Cleanest Addon Manager (latest that worked was 7.1), and RequestPolicy (it seems that the Pale Moon version was built but never uploaded).

I can only do bank transfer.

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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by superkuh » 2021-04-05, 18:44

Over and over I read, "Don't blame Pale Moon, it's not us who aren't maintaining the extensions." But that isn't and never has been the problem I, and other people complain about in this context. That's been the status quo for years. The problem is Pale Moon *intentionally* blocking the Firefox GUID. There's no reason for this.

All you have to do is do nothing, don't block firefox guid, and leave things how they are. If extensions fail for users and break then that's the users problem not yours. But you *are creating* a problem by going out of your way to block Firefox guid.

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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-04-05, 19:04

superkuh wrote:
2021-04-05, 18:44
The problem is Pale Moon *intentionally* blocking the Firefox GUID. There's no reason for this.
But we are not. What we are doing is removing an allowance to use the Firefox GUID to be used for installation in addition to Pale Moon's GUID, which has been a transitional workaround. There's no blocking going on here.
superkuh wrote:
2021-04-05, 18:44
All you have to do is do nothing, don't block firefox guid, and leave things how they are.
I've already given a very detailed explanation why that is not an acceptable solution, and i won't be repeating myself yet again.
To be honest I'm disappointed seeing this continued pushing for the so-called status quo which isn't actually a status quo; after all UXP is drifting further away from what Mozilla's code was 5 years ago every day so there is no equilibrium or static situation, and therefore no status quo.
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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by superkuh » 2021-04-05, 19:11

Moonchild wrote:
2021-04-05, 19:04
...removing an allowance to use the Firefox GUID...
That is a fine distinction you're balancing upon. I fail to see the practical difference between "removing an allowance" for a GUID and blocking a GUID. But maybe I just need to see the code. Perhaps the "allowance" is some complex terribly hard to maintain function and I don't understand.

*edit*: So, I've looked at the relevant code and it seems like the vast majority of the logic has to due with trying to warn and stop the users from doing what they want. Little of it has to do with actual browser functionality. https://repo.palemoon.org/MoonchildProd ... 4e29dea451
Last edited by superkuh on 2021-04-05, 19:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-04-05, 19:25

superkuh wrote:
2021-04-05, 19:11
I fail to see the practical difference between "removing an allowance" for a GUID and blocking a GUID.
Pale Moon has been using its own GUID (with the option to have its own exclusive extensions) since v25. At that point in time Pale Moon became incompatible with Firefox extensions. To give extension developers time to target Pale Moon as its own target application, we've built in an exception at the time to the rule "if the target application does not match us, the extension is incompatible and can't be installed". This was only ever meant to be in place for a limited time.
Removing this exception returns Pale Moon to the standard behaviour of the extension installer code (something we've already done before for other types of add-ons).
superkuh wrote:
2021-04-05, 19:11
Perhaps the "allowance" is some complex terribly hard to maintain function and I don't understand.
It does add complexity to the installer and has had some additional bugs connected to it as well, but that's not the point here. The point isn't that we technically can't keep the dual GUID in place, but rather that it's already way outlived its intended temporary nature and is currently grounds for increasing support pressure for unaltered legacy Firefox extensions that are increasingly incompatible, something that will only get worse. i.e.: Just because we can, doesn't mean we should.
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New Tobin Paradigm

Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-04-05, 21:19

Superkuh is being intentionally obtuse right now. He has been around for years and knows all this. He was a regular in the IRC channel all the way back since we took it back on moznet from Will Pitt. He was literally there at the same time this was happening or shortly there after and remains in the double hash sleepfest to this day.

Also has a tendancy to resist updates due to busted Firefox extensions PROVING the problem right there over the long term. How disappointing it is that he feigns ignorance to basic Pale Moon history when he was there living it as it happened with us.
Last edited by New Tobin Paradigm on 2021-04-05, 21:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by BobbyP » 2021-04-05, 21:23

New Tobin Paradigm wrote:
2021-04-03, 16:19
Start like anyone else. Learn the basic concepts at the Developer Site and the MDN Backup UDN which is linked on dpmo. But really you should crack it open and take a looksee.
Thanks Tobin. I did hunt around a lot yesterday, and did find applicable threads and info. I have to be very careful to properly distinguish between what is out-of date, and what is current. Also began opening the extension up, as you suggested. Looks like this thread has exploded, and so next for me to do is read it! Thanks again. [Multi-post quoting seems to be my challenge for the day.]

New Tobin Paradigm

Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-04-05, 21:39

Hey, we are all at different points on the same path and I don't deny that even I with the big overview understanding am still lagging behind on that journey. Sure, I know the basics and have an aerial picture and gotten to a certain point but no where near say Ryan or vannila or moonbat have.

One word of warning though, it can be intensely gratifing when you accomplish something. Even more so when someone bothers to appreciate your efforts. It can become habit forming.

Perhaps my impromptu business oppertunity will help expand my extension skills and even provide insight on how I can make my small handful of existing extensions even better also my UXP Applications too cause they are basically the same technology which is why our extensibility is so powerful.

Btw, for those planning to pay me to turn Firefox Extensions to Pale Moon extensions, no Jetpack/SDK please. A recent poll decided those going forward won't be allowed on the Add-ons Site due to the alien technology being deprecated. Also service extensions like those that modify reddit or youtube for example are likewise not applicable.

I am looking to bringing new life to Firefox Extensions that have a long term sustainability to them independent of any bs website. The ones critical to user's daily workflow habits. At 20 dollars a pop (15 if before 4/27).

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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by BobbyP » 2021-04-05, 22:01

Tharthan wrote:
2021-04-03, 19:25
... this resource (which NewTobinParadigm mentioned in the post above this one) which is provided to us by good fellow Pale Moon community member, RealityRipple, would certainly be of use to you:

https://udn.realityripple.com/docs/Archive/Add-ons

It is the original documentation for the days when Firefox was a browser that used XUL a lot, so you may need to tweak some things to make things work properly with UXP applications.
Thank you Tharthan! I did find that (though not sure how!) and noted that, like you mention, it may not be up-to-date. Didn't get much further than that, yet. Thanks again!
Kathuluforz wrote:
2021-04-03, 20:23
Also this thread may help you with some "basic" info: https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18878&p=139058#p139058
Thank you Kathuluforz! Likewise on the old vs. new challenge, but I will check it out. Thanks again.

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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by moonbat » 2021-04-05, 23:53

New Tobin Paradigm wrote:
2021-04-05, 21:39
Btw, for those planning to pay me to turn Firefox Extensions to Pale Moon extensions, no Jetpack/SDK please
People might not know how to tell those apart. I guess you can exclude ones that are marked 'no restart' in CAA/historical AMO. Then again, many extensions had been converted over to Jetpack historically so the older versions are also available for comparison.
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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-04-06, 00:06

if it has package.json or harness-options.json I won't touch it. Besides, the validator will say what it is.

https://addons.palemoon.org/special/test/?case=validator

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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by Michaell » 2021-04-06, 05:16

There was an offline local program for checking that back at ver 25. I don't have it anymore, but maybe it still exists (Moonchild?).

My opinion is paying one person to fork a bunch of extensions he has no interest in using is a bad approach. Are the devs that are paid going to claim proprietary ownership like for originals or full-forks, or will these be some sort of public domain at that point? Do you really want this one person taking over everything? [I do my own private forks (or just tweaks) as needed already so not so much of an issue for me personally.] Web sites are breaking so much I don't know if this is really the fight we need to be fighting now.
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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-04-06, 07:02

I obey licenses to the letter, skippy. However, if you want to go that route should I be doing any extension for Pale Moon because I don't actually use Pale Moon and haven't since early 2019. Does it matter?

Also, how does "own private forks (or just tweaks)" help anyone else out.. ever? I am offering my time in exchange for money for which you are exchanging for goods and services. I won't take a project I wouldn't think I couldn't maintain but I would be more likely to react the fastest to a breaking change because I am the UXP Coordinator and should know about breaking changes as they happen and during testing. Not to say I might not need some help from some more exclusively dedicated developers but isn't THAT what being a community is supposed to be about?

As I stated, I obey license terms to the letter and if you think I am acting like a shambling inhuman beast of a corporation then don't use it. Take the source code, and build your own extension based on it. Do what's right.

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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by moonbat » 2021-04-06, 07:12

Michaell wrote:
2021-04-06, 05:16
My opinion is paying one person to fork a bunch of extensions he has no interest in using is a bad approach.
As opposed to the hordes of passionate users who are ready to step up, learn the necessary XUL/CSS/Javascript and fork their favorite extensions they care about and share them to the community gratis, thus rendering this whole bounty program unnecessary? Oh wait.
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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-04-06, 07:46

Well maybe some people really just dunno what out of a lot to fork.. So here is a thread with special rules to find out!

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=26542

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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by WiseWolf » 2021-04-07, 11:45

I will just chime in and say, sometimes people expect way too much about of the devs of palemoon and arguably a lot of open source projects.

Put your money where your mouth is right?

I understand this sentiment, coding is probably a major pain in the ass.

For me it would be more of a pain then that thus I do not do it.

We need to more patient I think with the devs, they are not perfect. Really, that is a non possibility, we are all human.

That being said, I appreciate Moonchild and his fellow devs work on this awesome project. Thank you for this.

I am conflicted on a few things regarding this project, but its better than the dirt bags who work on Chrome based browsers/WebExtensions people.

Many times better in fact.

And yeah, I have donated in the past to this project... goodness knows its needed to fight the google empire...

New Tobin Paradigm

Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-04-10, 23:21

Well we have a good base list of dead Firefox extensions that users find important and better than that at least three people in the not-a-programmer (yet) category have stepped up to give new life to some of these extensions and regulars have joined in as well.

Will you be the next one who takes their future into your own hands and starts small learning as you go like them? Or will you wallow in fear, anger, and ignorance?

The choice is yours. Personally I see enlightened advancement to be superior. But that is just me.

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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-04-11, 07:00

New Tobin Paradigm wrote:
2021-04-10, 23:21
Personally I see enlightened advancement to be superior. But that is just me.
It's definitely not just you.
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"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
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