[0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

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Moonchild
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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-04-05, 11:06

snertev wrote:
2021-04-05, 10:53
It's simply irrealistic, in my opinion, to replicate such method for the whole ecosystem.

Of course, it isn't your duty to maintain endlessly the older ecosystem.

Things evolves, collapse or simply die (or barely survive). It's Nature.
Then don't complain about what we can't reasonably be expected to do, or saying things we're not saying that will paint us black.

Seriously, there is no reason for this misdirected disappointment in the community's lack of support for the ecosystem to be reflected on browser development (and us core devs) as it's been done in this thread (and more so on reddit, amplified) to make it somehow twisted around as if we're pretending to have control of the situation. WE DO NOT.
The only people that can be blamed for the inevitable reduction of the ecosystem and amount of available extensions is you, the users.
Under the label "I told you so before", go have another look at Topic 23697
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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by Lurker_01 » 2021-04-05, 11:12

Moonchild wrote:
2021-04-05, 10:36
designated point of contact and responsible for managing the extension
There are several problems with this approach.
People don't want to contact them, in fact they were just happy using the browser without a community interaction.
They also probably don't want credits.
Some people are happy enough to fix the extension and share it, but not develop or manage it, and since forking requires inventing a new name, adopt a license, create new accounts and creating a repo, that is a lot of extra work than just changing an id for most simple extensions (and is what is getting broken here).
Unfortunately sharing these ""hacks"" (as if creating a new repo and new name makes it not a ""hack"") is prevented by forum rules, some legitimately by breaking the license, but some not.

For me, not accepting a breaking change that has no effect on the browser functionality nor security in the browser is much simpler than forking a thousand extensions that i may use in the future, i am deeply sorry for that.
Last edited by Lurker_01 on 2021-04-05, 11:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by vannilla » 2021-04-05, 11:22

snertev wrote:
2021-04-05, 10:53
But I won't learn how to build it. I'll pay an architect to project it and a construction company to build it.
And yet nobody is paying people to maintain their abandoned extensions.
See how sophism comes around?

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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by moonbat » 2021-04-05, 12:53

There seems to be this impression that extension maintenance is a full time job. It's not. I've got 5 of them up on the site and once I was done with the initial implementation and fixed a few bugs, they just run fine. There's a forum thread for each one of them separately here where I post the changelog for each new release, but it's not like I'm doing that every month, let alone at the mad frantic pace made fashionable by Chrome.

And I was as clueless as anyone else about XUL, CSS and Javascript when I started and still mostly am, relying on the documentation archive and help from people here when I'm stuck.
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snertev

Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by snertev » 2021-04-05, 13:37

vannilla wrote:
2021-04-05, 11:22
snertev wrote:
2021-04-05, 10:53
But I won't learn how to build it. I'll pay an architect to project it and a construction company to build it.
And yet nobody is paying people to maintain their abandoned extensions.
See how sophism comes around?
Well, it depends on users' will to pay for value.

If I'm not wrong when Interlink mail was created, it involved some kind of financial incentive by users. They saw value in that work.

I don't know if there is an area where older extensions devs may collect bounties or constant simil-wages. Maybe, thre is room for that. Maybe not.
Last edited by snertev on 2021-04-05, 13:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by snertev » 2021-04-05, 13:40

Moonchild wrote:
2021-04-05, 11:06
snertev wrote:
2021-04-05, 10:53
It's simply irrealistic, in my opinion, to replicate such method for the whole ecosystem.

Of course, it isn't your duty to maintain endlessly the older ecosystem.

Things evolves, collapse or simply die (or barely survive). It's Nature.
Then don't complain about what we can't reasonably be expected to do, or saying things we're not saying that will paint us black.

Seriously, there is no reason for this misdirected disappointment in the community's lack of support for the ecosystem to be reflected on browser development (and us core devs) as it's been done in this thread (and more so on reddit, amplified) to make it somehow twisted around as if we're pretending to have control of the situation. WE DO NOT.
The only people that can be blamed for the inevitable reduction of the ecosystem and amount of available extensions is you, the users.
Under the label "I told you so before", go have another look at Topic 23697
Well, I'm not complaining.

I was answering to people that were suggesting that if you really like your extensions, you should learn to code to let them survive.

That, in my humble opinion, is the part that is irrealistic, especially because of the dimension of the ecosystem.

New Tobin Paradigm

Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-04-05, 13:51

First of all, you know well the one time cost for Interlink that happened was a gamble on my part to get people to either put their money where their mouth was or quit complaining about FossaMail bring discontinued. A gamble I actually lost because you and others DID just that.

So maybe I should charge 50 dollars to bring any otherwise currently working Firefox Extension to Pale Moon? Surely you would pay that if you contributed to the value of the arbitrary number I came up with for Interlink.

Also a misconception earlier up is you think we are using the blocklist to prevent 19 thousand extensions from installing.. We aren't. We are removing a hack that lets unmaintained Firefox targeted extensions install. It was nothing more than a transitional hack that was from day one of Pale Moon 25 was never meant to stick around for nearly six years. As for the blocklist we can actually clean and nearly empty it of all the Firefox Extensions.
Last edited by New Tobin Paradigm on 2021-04-05, 13:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-04-05, 13:53

So, pay me a decent amount of money for each (currently working, and license-permissible) legacy Firefox extension you want me to fork for Pale Moon use after 29.2.0 and I'll do it.
Say... $25 each? Since i'll have to come up with new names and icons it takes some work.

Of course doing that will take away time from doing browser development, so someone else will have to do that instead. So have at it. And yes for that you WILL have to be a programmer.
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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-04-05, 13:59

Undercutting me as I edited my post, eh Moonchild :P

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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by prengle » 2021-04-05, 14:00

josephd wrote:
2021-04-05, 06:39
Tell us all how you really feel.
Off-topic:
i've never been able to stop hammering a keyboard when i put myself in front of one :crazy:
jobbautista9 wrote:
2021-04-05, 06:42
it would be the worst possible time to delay this move to finally end support for unmaintained Firefox-only extensions
again, ending support for old ff addons is completely acceptable, going the extra mile and making it a pain in the ass to use any of them as-is, even if the end user is fully aware of the risks involved with doing so, is pushing it for me. the devs may not have control over these extensions inevitably breaking and that's all right, i don't expect them to be actively supported, i just disagree with them forcefully blocking those extensions from being installed or used for.. several reasons. (also, i feel like a change such as this should be reserved for a milestone and not a point release but whatever)

and for the record, i have nothing against dedicated communities making what they want to see whether or not it's viable, i've been somewhat interested in learning the basics behind developing xul extensions and themes since i started using pm again over a year ago, but i can't even begin to guarantee long-term support or anything remotely functional, i just want to experiment, and i sure as hell don't know where to start with actually making them. the "add-on development" page on the official site is tiny and buried, information is rapidly becoming harder to find, there are less and less people willing to provide support, and everything is scattered between old forum threads. i have realityripple's mdn backup bookmarked, but i don't remember it being terribly easy to find. i'm patient enough to scrape some of this stuff up, but i know most people won't even bother with doing so - if you want more people to make xul extensions, shouldn't this stuff be immediately available to the people who need it?

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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-04-05, 14:04

If it is important to you and already works the initial investment in time is minimal then as needed you pick stuff up as the need arises. You know, a natural progression everyone goes through.

Or pay someone else to do it, act now my rates just dropped 50%!

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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by moonbat » 2021-04-05, 14:06

prengle wrote:
2021-04-05, 14:00
forcefully blocking those extensions from being installed or used
Wow, imagine still not getting it at this point. They are getting rid of a hack that allowed these extensions to be installed with zero effort. If you can't be bothered to change an install.rdf (for which there are numerous posts on how to do it already) and use the damn extension for yourself, claiming that doing that takes elite programming or coding skills, god help you.
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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-04-05, 14:10

Not just the install manifest but also Name, Id, and icon/logo if there is one. But yeah start small then work your way up like Ryan, FranklinDM, Vannila, Moonbat, our friendly pokemon master, and the rest!

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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by moonbat » 2021-04-05, 14:16

I was talking about starting literally with baby steps - modifying extension for personal use. We've all started from there. Once you're comfy with that, then move on to actual forking with a new name/branding etc.
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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by prengle » 2021-04-05, 14:19

moonbat wrote:
2021-04-05, 14:06
Wow, imagine still not getting it at this point. They are getting rid of a hack that allowed these extensions to be installed with zero effort. If you can't be bothered to change an install.rdf (for which there are numerous posts on how to do it already) and use the damn extension for yourself, claiming that doing that takes elite programming or coding skills, god help you.
lolno i understand that, i know a good chunk of this stuff isn't rocket science and i've never even touched an .rdf file in my life before but i'm personally willing to spend a few minutes learning how to edit one. there are undoubtedly people who won't care regardless and my issue lies with them removing the hack for reasons i and some other people won't completely agree with, but whatever i'm starting to get all sleepy and headachey

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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by moonbat » 2021-04-05, 14:22

Look through the forums, you'll find detailed steps on how and what to change in the rdf files to make them compatible.
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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-04-05, 14:24

New Tobin Paradigm wrote:
2021-04-05, 13:59
Undercutting me as I edited my post, eh Moonchild :P
Hah! unintentional. But yeah I just pulled something out of my hat. Not wanting to undercut you I'll raise my price to $50 as well.
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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by vannilla » 2021-04-05, 14:51

snertev wrote:
2021-04-05, 13:37
Well, it depends on users' will to pay for value.
Indeed, and in fact, the value of old extensions is documented throughout the forum.
I'm not going to link every single post ("people have a life beyond <X>" ;) ), but you will easily find people saying things like "this extension is vital"; "without this extension I have to stop using this browser"; "my workflow depends entirely on this extension being accessible"; and so on.
That sounds pretty valuable to me.

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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by dapgo » 2021-04-05, 15:06

Moonchild wrote:
2021-04-05, 14:24
New Tobin Paradigm wrote:
2021-04-05, 13:59
Undercutting me as I edited my post, eh Moonchild :P
Hah! unintentional. But yeah I just pulled something out of my hat. Not wanting to undercut you I'll raise my price to $50 as well.
It is good start point, some developers identified and potential prices per fork. :thumbup:

I would just open the offering to more developers, try to find which addons are the most used, and let's start collecting donations.

Once a financial system to reward developers is working, some addons can also receive some updates/improvements. right? :angel:

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Re: [0427] Are you forking Firefox Extensions? Because time is almost up!

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-04-05, 15:17

I mean yeah, for me it is easy.. Ask if I can do X extension on caa I say yay or nay and you send me money on paypal and I do it.

Makes sense for me to offer such a service because both the Reddit Shithole and moreso the MSFN Hackers and XPfucks are claiming this is all my fault anyway.

Let's just call it 20 dollars per otherwise currently working Firefox extension. An extension is worth a pizza right? AND if you act before 4/27 I will do it for 15 per.

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