About using Firefox extensions on Pale Moon (discussion)

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Re: About using Firefox extensions on Pale Moon (discussion)

Post by back2themoon » 2020-07-16, 16:16

moonbat wrote:
2020-07-16, 16:08
Which full time paid technical writer do you expect to do this from the people on this forum?
Is a full-time paid technical writer really required for a single article/guide? You obviously paid no attention to what I described. You even go on saying "Mozilla definitely being able to afford dedicated staff to keep these docs updated." which is exactly what I said is NOT needed or asked for.

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Re: About using Firefox extensions on Pale Moon (discussion)

Post by arkaland » 2020-07-16, 18:08

;) I could be wrong, but I get the distinct impression that back2themoon's request (wish?) has been somewhat misunderstood, or perhaps exaggerated. If any NEW information could be included, it would be most welcome -- BUT, even without anything "new", it would be EXTREMELY helpful if the several forum posts relating to this problem (and it IS a problem for many of us) could be ORGANIZED into just ONE long post. As things are now, we have to "hop" all over the place when trying to "put it all together".
I do realize that it would take someone time and effort to do this, but please consider: even the "legacy" Firefox would have been practically a bloated "piece of junk" without ANY extensions. Sure, we do have the Pale Moon "addons" available to us now, and Thank God we do, but -- face it -- they are VERY Limited in number (and some, even in quality). No, we're not "entitled" to any help, but PLEASE do NOT take a "Firefox attitude" toward loyal users (and MANY of us have been using Pale Moon for years).
Yes, it would take time and effort to "re-organize" the stuff, but I can't even begin to tell you just how much we would appreciate it. So please give the idea/request some serious consideration. Thank you all.

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Re: About using Firefox extensions on Pale Moon (discussion)

Post by Quorx » 2020-07-16, 18:56

100% consensus with back2themoon.
I just wonder what would be easier for the professional developers here:
Writing a manual "How to Code Extensions" – or just collecting requests which Firefox add-ons should be forked for Pale Moon most urgently and do it themselves (using all the knowledge and experience they own and the simple user will never get).

No, that’s not meant impertinent. There should be not such an uncountable quantity of extensions missed by the users. Some names I read here again and again. In other cases, for an expert it is not a great effort to look inside and say "Yes, that’s a cinch" or "No, too much to change, it’s not worth it" (then it will even less be feasible for semi-skilled users).

– Ah, I see: the problem with licences.
But if some extensions may not be forked, nobody in the community may do it. Only underhandedly, everyone for his own use – ok, that would be the only scope for learning how to do.
Apart from that, where’s the point to enable people with other professions to patch software code?

Moonchild et al., please keep in mind: This is a support forum and a community of Pale Moon users, not only of software developers. If we could do, we would do and not bother you.

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Re: About using Firefox extensions on Pale Moon (discussion)

Post by back2themoon » 2020-07-16, 19:00

Quorx wrote:
2020-07-16, 18:56
100% consensus with back2themoon. I just wonder what would be easier for the professional developers here:
Writing a manual "How to Code Extensions" – or just collecting requests
Just to correct you there, I never asked for such a manual.

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Re: About using Firefox extensions on Pale Moon

Post by athenian200 » 2020-07-16, 19:11

back2themoon wrote:
2020-07-16, 15:40
I know about that content and it does help, but isn't the whole point here to finally get rid of all Firefox ties when it comes to extensions? Having old, Mozilla Firefox documents as our main or only guide is totally counter-productive and a bit insane. I expect better from Pale Moon.
I completely agree with you, the state of our documentation is not great. Even at the developer level, we're running into basically the same problems maintaining the browser. We spend a lot of time on Bugzilla trying to find some old note somewhere that will tell us what we need to know. Things probably need to improve at least a bit, but it seems like we're always in crisis mode and there's never enough time to take care of the documentation issues or bring new people up to speed on all this.
Let me repeat: I don't expect the PM devs to replicate and update the full Mozilla Docs. I expect one quality guide/article with detailed links on what one needs to begin learning when starting from scratch, and a fully dissected extension (Firefox-to-Pale Moon fork) complete with steps and descriptions.
I've thought about creating something like that in the past, and if I get some free time I think I'd like to do it. But yeah, I think ideally what we need a few people willing to put themselves through the awkward process of learning with the existing materials, and hopefully look back on their past selves and think, "Gee, I really wish I'd had something like this when I was first learning, maybe it would help encourage new contributors." But it seems like there's a tendency in human nature where once you've put yourself through something difficult, you resent being asked to spare others the same difficulty. It's like that old guy that's always saying "When I was your age, I..." fill in the blank here.
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Re: About using Firefox extensions on Pale Moon (discussion)

Post by Moonchild » 2020-07-16, 19:18

athenian200 wrote:
2020-07-16, 19:11
once you've put yourself through something difficult, you resent being asked to spare others the same difficulty
It's not that, per se. Personally I'm all for sparing others the same hardship.
It's more like with the current generation if you create something like that it will just be consumed without as much as a thank you or any sort of respect for the work done. See also: entitlement, where there's the opposite of respect since you are punished for not doing a selfless thing. Once you've gone through that once too many times, you simply don't want to do that thankless job anymore.

Honestly, I think all this has gone too far already. We add a warning about an inevitable future, and instead of people actually being constructive, we're being told "how dare you do this, and why isn't there a ready-made manual to help out?" Maybe you aren't aware of this, but that is the impression we get from all of you. No question "how should I do this or that?" and maybe from the answers compile a guide yourself, but no: How dare you not have extensive documentation a moron could follow. Or if you don't want to do that, then why haven't you gone through and made all these extensions I happen to use Pale Moon targeted yourself?

Seriously, I feel very similar to Tobin at this point. It's getting to the point where it becomes easy to fall into the mindset that you are a lot of thankless, greedy, entitled people that don't deserve any more of our hard work. I don't want that to happen. But it's getting harder to resist with each post.
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Re: About using Firefox extensions on Pale Moon (discussion)

Post by back2themoon » 2020-07-16, 20:14

Just to clarify my position, again. I never asked for a "ready-made manual". I never asked for any type of manual nor a complete guide of anything. I did not ask for "extensive documentation" for morons or smart ones. So please don't twist my simple request into something it is not. I've already explained everything in detail.

So, it seems you prefer answering multiple, individual questions over and over again. Perfectly fine.

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Re: About using Firefox extensions on Pale Moon (discussion)

Post by Moonchild » 2020-07-16, 20:22

back2themoon: you weren't the only one chiming in here though, and others have clearly asked for such a thing.
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Re: About using Firefox extensions on Pale Moon (discussion)

Post by athenian200 » 2020-07-17, 02:26

Moonchild wrote:
2020-07-16, 19:18
It's not that, per se. Personally I'm all for sparing others the same hardship.
It's more like with the current generation if you create something like that it will just be consumed without as much as a thank you or any sort of respect for the work done. See also: entitlement, where there's the opposite of respect since you are punished for not doing a selfless thing. Once you've gone through that once too many times, you simply don't want to do that thankless job anymore.
I understand the entitlement thing. Even if it didn't support any add-ons at all, I would be grateful to have this browser as an alternative. I mean, I don't even think I'm entitled to up-to-date documentation, and I don't mind getting my hands dirty and figuring everything out the hard way. It's just that does mean everything takes longer and I have less help because a lot of people aren't as eager to jump in under these conditions.

I guess my perspective is, and always has been, that everyone is selfish. I'm selfish because I want this project to thrive for my own reasons, and if I want other people to help me make that happen, I need appeal to their selfishness too. So I think to myself, how can I make contributing to this project more appealing, easier, reduce people's resistance to the idea? I know already that not many people will ever thank me for the work I do, and will just complain to me because things are broken. I'm fine with that because in the end, I'm not doing this for them.
Honestly, I think all this has gone too far already. We add a warning about an inevitable future, and instead of people actually being constructive, we're being told "how dare you do this, and why isn't there a ready-made manual to help out?" Maybe you aren't aware of this, but that is the impression we get from all of you. No question "how should I do this or that?" and maybe from the answers compile a guide yourself, but no: How dare you not have extensive documentation a moron could follow. Or if you don't want to do that, then why haven't you gone through and made all these extensions I happen to use Pale Moon targeted yourself?
Well, if it helps at all, I hope my concession about the documentation situation didn't come off as ingratitude for what we do have. I'm really just trying to make people feel better about everything, but it seems to not be coming across the way I intend. And like I said, maybe I'd like to help write it myself at some point, because I think if we did have it, at least a few more people who find the current barrier to entry too high would be able to start writing extensions, and thereby get more involved in the project.
Seriously, I feel very similar to Tobin at this point. It's getting to the point where it becomes easy to fall into the mindset that you are a lot of thankless, greedy, entitled people that don't deserve any more of our hard work. I don't want that to happen. But it's getting harder to resist with each post.
You and Tobin have done a lot for this project over the past 10 years. I think it's understandable if you're tired of everything at this point and just want to move on with your lives. I'm grateful for what you've both given us so far, and if you're just tired of it, then I won't hold it against you if you want to spend the rest of your days relaxing or doing something easier. You've more than earned the right to retire if you so choose. No one could really blame you at this point, it's exhausting work and you aren't really getting anything out of it that I can see.

Honestly, I am a little terrified at the thought of having to try and continue working on this project without you or Tobin around to consult for advice. But... I know you're not obligated to continue helping us, maintaining this forum, any of it. Thank you for your years of service to the community, whether you want to continue or not. I hope you enjoy your vacation.
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Re: About using Firefox extensions on Pale Moon (discussion)

Post by astewart » 2020-07-17, 03:57

Moonchild wrote:
2020-07-16, 19:18
Seriously, I feel very similar to Tobin at this point. It's getting to the point where it becomes easy to fall into the mindset that you are a lot of thankless, greedy, entitled people that don't deserve any more of our hard work. I don't want that to happen. But it's getting harder to resist with each post.
No, they are not "a lot of thankless, greedy, entitled people". They are a handful of noisy posters vastly out numbered by the many thousands of Pale Moon users who never post, never request, never complain. "They" may not deserve your hard work, but I hope the rest of us do. Thank you. Silently.

Alan

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Re: About using Firefox extensions on Pale Moon (discussion)

Post by moonbat » 2020-07-17, 04:10

More to the point, a handful of new posters who just crawled out of the woodwork to complain. They never were anything other than passive users upto this point and never contributed anything back. Meanwhile there's the rest of us regulars who hang out here because we like it here and like helping people who can state their problem in an informative and non-rude manner.
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Re: About using Firefox extensions on Pale Moon (discussion)

Post by Lurker_01 » 2020-07-17, 05:07

moonbat wrote:
2020-07-17, 04:10
More to the point, a handful of new posters who just crawled out of the woodwork to complain. They never were anything other than passive users upto this point and never contributed anything back. Meanwhile there's the rest of us regulars who hang out here because we like it here and like helping people who can state their problem in an informative and non-rude manner.
I mostly agree with new posters but i was refraining from saying anything because i would feel it would be too harsh.
What i will say is that i feel that PM Team was not informative in case of issues most of the time (edit: in my experience, doesn't mean this is most of the cases), in-fact most direct technical questions end with answers of go learn stuff yourself somewhere with no links (or general not specialized topic) and i feel like providing full info about your current problem as requested before posting usually doesn't net any answers other that not generating user posts of provide more info. (through i admit there way too many posts where that info would been useful)
before i say anything more i better just crawl back to the woodworks...
Last edited by Lurker_01 on 2020-07-17, 05:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: About using Firefox extensions on Pale Moon (discussion)

Post by moonbat » 2020-07-17, 05:13

Lurker_01 wrote:
2020-07-17, 05:07
What i will say is that i feel that PM Team was not informative in case of issues most of the time
How in this case? For years they have been saying that extensions need to be forked and explicitly targeted at Pale Moon.
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Re: About using Firefox extensions on Pale Moon (discussion)

Post by Lurker_01 » 2020-07-17, 05:25

moonbat wrote:
2020-07-17, 05:13
Lurker_01 wrote:
2020-07-17, 05:07
What i will say is that i feel that PM Team was not informative in case of issues most of the time
How in this case? For years they have been saying that extensions need to be forked and explicitly targeted at Pale Moon.
I was saying that in general, through in the specific case of extensions, yes they indeed said that extensions need to be forked and explicitly targeted at Pale Moon through that is not helping the general users.
I could theoretically with my know-how fork extensions but that doesn't mean i want the mantle of maintaining them nor i think any random user. (i already have 2 big side projects unrelated to browsers that i maintain myself).
The unfortunate current situation is that some firefox extensions are still working without any need of modification, and just modifying the targeting portion wouldn't mean they will start working any better or be more compatible.
edit: And in case of broken extensions, the users usually just find an alternative or live without it. (at least this is my opinion)

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Re: About using Firefox extensions on Pale Moon (discussion)

Post by moonbat » 2020-07-17, 05:54

Lurker_01 wrote:
2020-07-17, 05:25
I could theoretically with my know-how fork extensions but that doesn't mean i want the mantle of maintaining them nor i think any random user. (i already have 2 big side projects unrelated to browsers that i maintain myself).
The unfortunate current situation is that some firefox extensions are still working without any need of modification, and just modifying the targeting portion wouldn't mean they will start working any better or be more compatible.
The point is that you can switch the target application and keep using them for yourself without publishing a fork for public consumption if that isn't your thing. The ones that are working sans modification will only need the target application block to be changed anyway.
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Re: About using Firefox extensions on Pale Moon (discussion)

Post by Lurker_01 » 2020-07-17, 06:15

moonbat wrote:
2020-07-17, 05:54
without publishing a fork for public consumption if that isn't your thing.
just forking != maintaining, in-fact i am sure somebody would be happy to just post modified extensions but that is not allowed by forum rules and just creating a fork in github and then not touching it forever just to conform to forum rules is not better. (edit: and/or go extra mile and publish it in the pale-moon add-on site)
moonbat wrote:
2020-07-17, 05:54
The point is that you can switch the target application ... The ones that are working sans modification will only need the target application block to be changed anyway.
Or nothing could have changed and nobody would have to waste their time.... unless this was done with the intent for somebody to actually step up, but i don't think this change will push people to do that.

edit2: In fact i am wasting my own time and i do have a private Pale Moon fork where i didn't merge that check (i always test with official portable version before reporting issues), unfortunately while i love to promote Pale Moon i do wish to keep official branding privately on my own build so i wont be posting any/new moons to the internet.

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Re: About using Firefox extensions on Pale Moon (discussion)

Post by letmeindude » 2020-07-17, 06:49

Like it or not, this move brought confusion:
https://www.wilderssecurity.com/threads ... st-2931002

Imagine, what would v29 do.

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Re: About using Firefox extensions on Pale Moon (discussion)

Post by moonbat » 2020-07-17, 06:54

Lurker_01 wrote:
2020-07-17, 06:15
unless this was done with the intent for somebody to actually step up, but i don't think this change will push people to do that.
Had Firefox not dumped XUL, these very extensions would still be only compatible with version 57 and require work from their developers to keep up with the latest changes. Can't expect everything to just run on cruise control without maintenance.
letmeindude wrote:
2020-07-17, 06:49
Like it or not, this move brought confusion:
https://www.wilderssecurity.com/threads ... st-2931002

Imagine, what would v29 do.
People hated on Windows XP, Vista and 7 at launch, and those versions didn't remove any functionality either unlike later ones. Else they should just call it quits and abandon any attempt to bring PM up to par with the modern web.
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Re: About using Firefox extensions on Pale Moon (discussion)

Post by RealityRipple » 2020-07-17, 06:59

moonbat wrote:
2020-07-17, 06:54
Lurker_01 wrote:
2020-07-17, 06:15
unless this was done with the intent for somebody to actually step up, but i don't think this change will push people to do that.
Had Firefox not dumped XUL, these very extensions would still be only compatible with version 57 and require work from their developers to keep up with the latest changes. Can't expect everything to just run on cruise control without maintenance.
letmeindude wrote:
2020-07-17, 06:49
Like it or not, this move brought confusion:
https://www.wilderssecurity.com/threads ... st-2931002

Imagine, what would v29 do.
People hated on Windows XP, Vista and 7 at launch, and those versions didn't remove any functionality either unlike later ones. Else they should just call it quits and abandon any attempt to bring PM up to par with the modern web.
Off-topic:
I don't remember anyone hating 7. Do you mean 8? Because everyone fucking hated 8.

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Re: About using Firefox extensions on Pale Moon (discussion)

Post by letmeindude » 2020-07-17, 07:02

Off-topic:
moonbat wrote:
2020-07-17, 06:54
People hated on Windows XP, Vista and 7 at launch, and those versions didn't remove any functionality either unlike later ones.
List of features removed in Windows XP
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_f ... Windows_XP
List of features removed in Windows 7
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_f ... _Windows_7
List of features removed in Windows Vista
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_f ... dows_Vista

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