Retrieving Legacy Extensions from the Digital Void

General discussion, compatibility and contributed extensions.

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Re: Retrieving Legacy Extensions from the Digital Void

Unread post by Moonchild » 2018-12-27, 08:43

Right, well, color me confused about this resistance, people.

From what I see, the following happened:
  1. Mozilla removed legacy add-ons.
  2. People were unable to get these add-ons for their older/ESR/fork browser.
  3. JustOff created something stunning in CAA that will help Pale Moon users, specifically. BUT it is rather limited in how it can be used and by whom.
  4. Tobin planned and is creating a definitive, extensive site with lots of detail for extensions but that won't be available until 9 months from now.
  5. Legacy Collector as a result created a repository site with direct access to XPIs to help people who don't want to or can't wait those 9 months, and to cater to every consumer of XUL extensions, not just Pale Moon.
I don't see how 3, 4, and 5 are in any way in conflict with each other. Tobin, I'm pretty sure nobody is "trying to steal your thunder", so please calm down. I'm sure whatever you come up with ultimately will be full-featured and vastly outweighing a simple repository of extension XPIs with descriptions, but it won't be ready for quite a while! It reminds me of what has had many a Mozilla bug stall: wanting to do nothing until a perfect solution is found. What Legacy Collector offers is a "quick fix" for nothing being available -at all- on the web for direct access. Maybe it's incomplete for now (since it was just launched) and maybe JustOff's CAA is much better for this community in particular, but that's no reason to not respect the effort being made here. Not like the site is loaded with ads or in any other way is trying to monetize it -- looks like a charity effort to me to all XUL users, so don't knock it!
Last edited by Moonchild on 2018-12-27, 08:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Retrieving Legacy Extensions from the Digital Void

Unread post by fillerup » 2018-12-27, 16:51

JustOff's CAA is not so limited actually
This add-on has been tested with the following browsers (in alphabetical order): Basilisk RC1, Firefox ESR 45-52, Firefox 45-58b, Pale Moon 27 and Waterfox 55.

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Re: Retrieving Legacy Extensions from the Digital Void

Unread post by riiis » 2018-12-27, 17:46

Legacy Collector wrote:As far as I understand, JustOff's solution might be fantastic but won't work unless you install an extension for it, so it won't work for other browsers or for people who just want to download copies and not install it.
Not really. In addition to Pale Moon, Classic Add-ons Archive runs well on current versions of Basilisk, Waterfox 56.*, and SeaMonkey. To download an add-on from CAA, rather than install, right-click the CAA "+ Install Now" button. Then, select "Save Link As ..." from the context menu.

CAA can realistically be viewed as a add-on direct replacement for the Mozilla add-on site (AMO), sans WebExtensions (plus augmented with add-ons from Wayback Machine and other open Internet directories and collections). The CAA catalog consists of 75,929 versions of 16,706 Firefox add-ons created by 12,538 developers over the past 15 years. Thus, "Classic Add-ons Archive" is unlikely to be bested by current vaporware or future "round tuit's".

For example, note from the Waterfox Project:
There is now a complete backup of all classic add-ons from the Mozilla Add-On Store, mirrored on the Waterfox CDN. You can use the Classic add-on Archive add-on to view the catalogue. This will be integrated into the next minor Waterfox version (56.3).
Note from the CAA "About" page:
classic-addons.jpg
Popular add-ons, which run out-of-the-box in Pale Moon, should be listed at the Pale Moon add-on site (licenses permitting, which most licenses do permit). Such popular add-ons should not require their developers to submit their add-ons to APMO for listing (where add-on licenses provide no such requirements). And, Pale Moon users should not have to search far-and wide, on the internet, for their favorite add-ons. And unfortunately, Pale Moon users should not have to download their favorite add-ons, from a third-party website controlled by person(s) they have no reason to trust. This is particularly true for add-ons which are best-in-class (or for add-ons for which similar add-ons are not available from APMO).

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Re: Retrieving Legacy Extensions from the Digital Void

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2018-12-27, 18:59

riiis wrote:Popular add-ons, which run out-of-the-box in Pale Moon, should be listed at the Pale Moon add-on site
No, this should not be done because of the Adblock Plus situation in 2014 where they clained we violated their trademark. Additionally we have been accused of stealing code.. As well as the fact that having Firefox extensions on a live Add-ons Site vs a clearly marked archive is deceptive as it will give a false impression of the add-ons that are supported at best. At worse? What I already said.

A living Add-ons Site must uphold the highest standard of curation and everything MUST be on the up. Especially when you consider AUS. Remember, Pale Moon does NOT support Firefox Extensions and hasn't since v25 despite allowing them to install and gradual lifting of the restrictions on Firefox targeted extensions.

ALSO, extension and theme submissions MUST have at least one supported targetApplication that is for an active application Phoebus is serving. The add-ons team will reject drive by submissions that are not from the original developer or not properly forked (forking requires more than just adding a targetApplication).

Pale Moon Add-ons must target Pale Moon. If in the event one slips by the add-ons team it will NOT be listed for Pale Moon because it does not have a Pale Moon targetApplication.
Last edited by New Tobin Paradigm on 2018-12-27, 20:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Retrieving Legacy Extensions from the Digital Void

Unread post by riiis » 2018-12-27, 19:42

... extension and theme submissions MUST have at least one supported targetApplication that is for an active application Phoebus is serving.
If so, prior to listing at APMO, Phoebus should be fixed or the add-ons' "install.rdf" files should be fixed.

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Re: Retrieving Legacy Extensions from the Digital Void

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2018-12-27, 19:52

Phoebus doesn't need fixed. It in it's 1.x form relies on the Add-ons Team checking it out else it might error out.. and Phoebus 2.0 will simply fail to pass validation requiring the developer to add at least one targetApplication block for an application that the software is serving.

Phoebus knows what it is doing. I am going to make sure the validator will have access to a database table of ID, Creator, and Name of all the AMO Extensions to prevent ID collision by someone doing a drive-by reupload or some malicious person trying to steal and Add-on ID to exploit users via the Add-on Update Service. If it matches any of those then it will be flagged for special review and the Add-ons Team may have to contact the submitting developer for verification.

Thank you riiis, your blatant disregard for the stated rules and guidelines continues to help me refine Phoebus and prevent user error and exploitation of various vectors.
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Re: Retrieving Legacy Extensions from the Digital Void

Unread post by Legacy Collector » 2018-12-27, 21:43

riiis wrote:Not really. In addition to Pale Moon, Classic Add-ons Archive runs well on current versions of Basilisk, Waterfox 56.*, and SeaMonkey. To download an add-on from CAA, rather than install, right-click the CAA "+ Install Now" button. Then, select "Save Link As ..." from the context menu.
Well, despite that, the original question of this thread was:
Aside from justoffs brilliant archive (I can't currently run a browser that supports it), is there any way to retrieve the lost extensions?
So, that's what I responded to. I'll improve it and add to it over time, and come Q3 2019, we can always see about retiring the Firefox add-ons category in favor of the Phoenix Archives.
Looking for legacy Firefox add-ons? Check out the catalog here:
http://legacycollector.org/firefox-addons/

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Re: Retrieving Legacy Extensions from the Digital Void

Unread post by doofy » 2018-12-28, 02:31

Legacy Collector wrote:I'll improve it and add to it over time, and come Q3 2019, we can always see about retiring the Firefox add-ons category in favor of the Phoenix Archives.
Monopolies are never good. 'Spesh in a case like this - they can go down on a whim.

Your site is an impressive piece of work. If you have probs with hosting costs, I assume that many on the interwebs will step up to help you out.

As for fills - it would be nice to think that members of the community would step up also.

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Re: Retrieving Legacy Extensions from the Digital Void

Unread post by riiis » 2018-12-29, 23:14

A living Add-ons Site must uphold the highest standard of curation

The one and only definition of "curation" I could find in my many English dictionaries was "cure", i.e. healing. If Phoebus were indeed "a living add-ons site", it might be in need of "curation". However, rest assured Phoebus is not alive, never was alive, and never will be alive. Besides, I thought that
Phoebus doesn't need fixed.
Especially when you consider AUS.

What does "AUS" mean? Is it an abbreviation for "Australis" or obfuscation? And, how are thousands of old Firefox add-ons, no longer being developed or listed at AMO-- how will these thousands of old Firefox add-ons be in need of update. And by whom will these thousands of old Firefox add-ons be updated?
Remember, Pale Moon does NOT support Firefox Extensions and hasn't since v25 despite allowing them to install and gradual lifting of the restrictions on Firefox targeted extensions.
This statement is absurd to the 10th power. The Pale Moon add-ons site is filled with Firefox add-ons, just Firefox add-ons NOT compatible with the latest versions of Firefox. And why build an archive for users, an archive of thousands of old Firefox extensions, if Pale Moon does NOT support these Firefox extensions.
having Firefox extensions on a live Add-ons Site vs a clearly marked archive is deceptive as it will give a false impression of the add-ons that are supported
I thought, from your prior statement, that "Pale Moon does NOT support Firefox Extensions". If Pale Moon, to the contrary, DOES support Firefox extensions, it's better that the few best and most popular of these Firefox extensions be listed at the Pale Moon add-on site, where these add-ons can be easily found by users. And where the safety and compatibility of this limited number of add-ons can be reviewed realistically by the add-ons team (and by the community). This process is preferable to an archive of thousands of old Firefox add-ons, the safety and compatibility of which has been reviewed only by you, or not at all.

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Re: Retrieving Legacy Extensions from the Digital Void

Unread post by back2themoon » 2018-12-29, 23:27

riiis wrote:
New Tobin Paradigm wrote:
Remember, Pale Moon does NOT support Firefox Extensions and hasn't since v25 despite allowing them to install and gradual lifting of the restrictions on Firefox targeted extensions.
This statement is absurd to the 10th power. The Pale Moon add-ons site is filled with Firefox add-ons, just Firefox add-ons NOT compatible with the latest versions of Firefox. And why build an archive for users, an archive of thousands of old Firefox extensions, if Pale Moon does NOT support these Firefox extensions.
You are misunderstanding what "support" means. Read this.
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Re: Retrieving Legacy Extensions from the Digital Void

Unread post by doofy » 2018-12-29, 23:28

riiis wrote:The one and only definition of "curation" I could find in my many English dictionaries was "cure", i.e. healing.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... h/curation

Think: "curator".

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Re: Retrieving Legacy Extensions from the Digital Void

Unread post by NotFunny » 2018-12-29, 23:36

riiis wrote:the safety and compatibility of which has been reviewed only by you, or not at all.

Shouldn't legality be added to that ?
Some extension Licenses are quite specific about limitations of use.

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Re: Retrieving Legacy Extensions from the Digital Void

Unread post by yami_ » 2018-12-29, 23:37

riiis wrote:What does "AUS" mean?
Application Update Service
Off-topic:
curate verb Select, organize, and look after the items in (a collection or exhibition)
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Re: Retrieving Legacy Extensions from the Digital Void

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2018-12-30, 00:33

riiis wrote:The one and only definition of "curation" I could find in my many English dictionaries was "cure", i.e. healing. If Phoebus were indeed "a living add-ons site", it might be in need of "curation". However, rest assured Phoebus is not alive, never was alive, and never will be alive.
The Pale Moon Add-ons Site and Project Phoebus are very much a living Add-ons Repository and Project in and of them selves. I don't know how this doesn't make sense to you. It isn't a static archive it changes, grows, adapts, gets better over time. In essence, alive.

Code: Select all

curate verb Select, organize, and look after the items in (a collection or exhibition) 
riiis wrote:What does "AUS" mean? Is it an abbreviation for "Australis" or obfuscation? And, how are thousands of old Firefox add-ons, no longer being developed or listed at AMO-- how will these thousands of old Firefox add-ons be in need of update. And by whom will these thousands of old Firefox add-ons be updated?
As mentioned above though slightly incorrect AUS in this context stands for Add-on Update Service. That is what happens either automatically or manually to get updates to add-ons via the Add-on Manager. In a historical context it stands for Automatic Update Service because way back in the long long time ago, Mozilla had "Mozilla Update" which provided the Automatic Update Service for both Applications and Add-ons. This was split not too long after the initial beta phase. "Mozilla Update" (umo) became the Mozilla/Firefox Add-ons Site (amo) and application updating was separated out and went in different directions. Much the same way that XPInstall was eventually reduced to JUST dealing with add-ons. So AUS as in Application Update Service is different from AUS as in Add-on Update Service but they both qualify as Automatic Update Services.

As an interesting sidenote while Add-on Update Service retains it's Mozilla RDF manifest format, Application Update Service switched to bare XML.

NOW, Phoebus while will donate some of it's code for the purposes of driving MY Phoenix Extension Archive that archive has nothing to do with Project Phoebus it's self or any of the living Add-ons Sites. If you thought that the Pale Moon Add-ons Site or future Basilisk Add-ons Site would be flooded with AMO Extensions as part of the Archive then you are very mistaken. Though, I guess I can understand the confusion since I am doing both.
riiis wrote:
NewTobinParadign wrote:Remember, Pale Moon does NOT support Firefox Extensions and hasn't since v25 despite allowing them to install and gradual lifting of the restrictions on Firefox targeted extensions.
This statement is absurd to the 10th power. The Pale Moon add-ons site is filled with Firefox add-ons, just Firefox add-ons NOT compatible with the latest versions of Firefox. And why build an archive for users, an archive of thousands of old Firefox extensions, if Pale Moon does NOT support these Firefox extensions.
The Pale Moon Add-ons Site is currently filled with extensions that target Pale Moon and have had Pale Moon compatibility added even IF just a targetApplication block. Not all of them support Firefox and while many are derived from extensions that once supported Firefox they may not work for Basilisk or eq stock Firefox. Because the Add-ons Site started as just being for Pale Moon and nothing else.

As stated above, the Phoenix Extension Archive has nothing to do with Project Phoebus (except the software will be based on a stripped down version of the code) it is a separate project that has no connection to the Pale Moon Add-ons Site, Moonchild Productions, or the Pale Moon project. It's intended purpose is preservation and educational reference. In the case of open source it can be used to find old extensions and breath new life in them via forking. Or hell maybe the original developer can grab the code which they abandoned, freshen it up a bit and submit it to one of the proper Add-ons Sites.

See one of the posts above for a link to the reminding announcement on how Firefox Extensions are not supported despite the fact we continue to let them install via the Dual-GUID devised to allow such a thing back when Pale Moon v25 happened. They are still not supported by us nor do we offer any support for using Firefox-targeted extensions. Because it is a crapshoot if they work at all.

Uhh, This link, https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19727. Which is not a fundamental change from the status quo but was just a reminder of it.
riiis wrote:
NewTobinParadign wrote:having Firefox extensions on a live Add-ons Site vs a clearly marked archive is deceptive as it will give a false impression of the add-ons that are supported
I thought, from your prior statement, that "Pale Moon does NOT support Firefox Extensions". If Pale Moon, to the contrary, DOES support Firefox extensions, it's better that the few best and most popular of these Firefox extensions be listed at the Pale Moon add-on site, where these add-ons can be easily found by users. And where the safety and compatibility of this limited number of add-ons can be reviewed realistically by the add-ons team (and by the community). This process is preferable to an archive of thousands of old Firefox add-ons, the safety and compatibility of which has been reviewed only by you, or not at all.
I already explained why we can't just dump or allow others to dump unmodified or improperly forked Firefox extensions on our Add-ons Site both the legal and the technical reasons. As I have already said, Pale Moon does NOT support Firefox Extensions. Because they are Firefox Extensions. We do however allow Firefox targeted extensions to install which is NOT the same thing. To be honest, this entire concept is backwards anyway. Pale Moon does not support extensions. Pale Moon supports extensibility. That is, Pale Moon Extensions support Pale Moon. Firefox extensions don't support Pale Moon and under normal circumstances they would not be installable. But in Pale Moon v25 we introduced the Dual-GUID system that allows Firefox targeted extensions to install however as mentioned for four years all over this forum.. It is a crapshoot if they actually work because by definition, Firefox Extensions support only Firefox. Functionality is the only thing in question. Bottom line here is, extensions support applications, not the other way around. I thought you would have figured that out by now...

Let me say this again so it is absolutely clear. There is a difference between a living Add-ons Site and a static archive for historic and educational purposes. I am NOT reviewing Firefox extensions for the Archive.. I am ARCHIVING them for future generations. Once done it is static and unchanging .. an Archive (unless a verifiable good faith takedown request happens for rights reasons for a specific item).

The Pale Moon Add-ons Site, Future Basilisk Add-ons Site, Future Interlink Add-ons Site, and Future Borealis Add-ons Site are sharing common database and datastore and by some cleaver coding by me will only display extensions and themes to each incarnation of the site based on targetApplication.

Let me say it for a .. fourth time. The Phoenix Extension Archive is NOT an Add-ons Site and has nothing to do with any Add-ons Site or even this project. It is something I am personally going to do on thereisonlyxul.org which is sponsored by Binary Outcast. If I keep getting pushed on this, I might decide not to do it at all and let others handle it since apparently they are so much more preferred over me in your eyes. However, don't count on it. There is more to the big picture than your misconceptions and anti-tobinism, riiis.

ANYWAY, I hope I have cleared up any questions people had even though my faith in that being the case isn't very high. I recall people asking if Basilisk is the new Pale Moon and I shudder.

Here is a helpful graphic!
Image1.png
ALSO, someone should REALLY split this off from this thread cause it has been completely derailed at this point.
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Re: Retrieving Legacy Extensions from the Digital Void

Unread post by yami_ » 2018-12-30, 01:18

Off-topic:
New Tobin Paradigm wrote:AUS in this context stands for Add-on Update Service. That is what happens either automatically or manually to get updates to add-ons via the Add-on Manager. In a historical context it stands for Automatic Update Service because way back in the long long time ago, Mozilla had "Mozilla Update" which provided the Automatic Update Service for both Applications and Add-ons. This was split not too long after the initial beta phase. "Mozilla Update" (umo) became the Mozilla/Firefox Add-ons Site (amo) and application updating was separated out and went in different directions. Much the same way that XPInstall was eventually reduced to JUST dealing with add-ons. So AUS as in Application Update Service is different from AUS as in Add-on Update Service but they both qualify as Automatic Update Services.
I did not know this, thanks for your insight Tobin.
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Re: Retrieving Legacy Extensions from the Digital Void

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2018-12-30, 01:20

Off-topic:
yami_ wrote:I did not know this, thanks for your insight Tobin.
It's cool, I know using the same acronym for two things that used to be the same can be confusing. The easiest thing to do is just remember the A in AUS is contextual.
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Re: Retrieving Legacy Extensions from the Digital Void

Unread post by riiis » 2019-01-04, 18:34

Several best-in-class, popular, and PM28-compatible add-ons are also available from Iceweasel-UXP Addons (such as "DownThemAll! 3.0.8" and "Zoom Page 15.8"). The DTA and ZP add-ons listed at Iceweasel-UXP Addons are not forks. However, Iceweasel-UXP Addons lists several forks of other popular add-ons as well. Such as, "Save To Location"(a fork of "Save To File" formerly available from AMO) and "uBlock Origin-Libre"(packaged in the Iceweasel-UXP repository).

Moderator note: highly disputable and speculative content removed from this post.

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Re: Retrieving Legacy Extensions from the Digital Void

Unread post by Lootyhoof » 2019-01-04, 19:14

riiis wrote:The "major difference" between these add-ons as listed at Iceweasel-UXP Addons, and these same add-ons as listed at AMO or APMO? -- These best-in-class, popular, and PM28-compatible add-ons are no longer listed at AMO and have never been listed at APMO.
The Iceweasel-UXP developers that produced those forks are more than aware of us and our site and have chosen not to list them here at this time and we respect that - in this instance you would need to contact them to question this further.

Please understand that while we would like to host every add-on ever produced here that happens to work on Pale Moon, there is at the very least an implied level of support from this, such that if something changes in Pale Moon that the developer(s) of an add-on would be able to respond accordingly. Even if an add-on that was on AMO directly supported Pale Moon during its time existing on AMO (as in, targeted updates specifically toward Pale Moon) we would not host this without the developer's insight - in those cases the developer themselves might even want access to our AUS to keep updating that add-on and thus there is even more reason to get in touch with them.

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Re: Retrieving Legacy Extensions from the Digital Void

Unread post by Nightbird » 2019-01-07, 01:01

Archiving and making available are very important, all the work that can be done is good.
Thanks JustOff, Legacy Collector, New Tobin Paradigm and anyone for what has been, is and will be done.
Diversity is key.

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Re: Retrieving Legacy Extensions from the Digital Void

Unread post by Legacy Collector » 2019-01-15, 11:00

I just want to drop a note and request here for the people using my site: it seems some of you have taken it upon themselves to use scrapers to make copies of the entire archive. Please don't! The site will be available for a long time to come if I can help it, and downloading many GBs of data eating into the available server bandwidth just so you have a local copy (99.9% of which you're likely never going to use) is unfair use.

I've blocked some of the scrapers used now. Please only download what you plan on using. I offer this free out of my own pocket, so please don't be greedy.
Looking for legacy Firefox add-ons? Check out the catalog here:
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