KeeFox/KeePass STILL does not work with PM 28

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KeeFox/KeePass STILL does not work with PM 28

Unread post by 1210_bex » 2018-10-11, 01:16

I previously started the thread: "PM 28 & KeeFox/KeePass" at viewtopic.php?f=46&t=19825

meminetmy found a fix for Debian, and the moderator marked the issue as Solved.

But for me, running Windows 7 Pro (64 bit) SP1, and now PM 28.1.0 (32 bit), it is NOT solved. I continue to get the screen shown on my initial post in the above referenced thread, even when I upgrade KeePassRPC to 1.7.3.0, which is what meminemy did.

I even tried installing the newer versions of KeePass but it won't work without a newer version of KeeFox, which PM does not support currently.

Here is what I am using:
KeePass 2.38
KeePassRPC 1.4.4.0 (as noted above, 1.7.3.0 did not improve the situation)
KeeFox 1.4.8.1-signed (which appears to be the latest version of KeeFox which will run on PM)

I knows that it is the add-on developer's job to keep their software updated to be compatible with PM, but the sad fact is that developers usually do well to keep updated for one browser family. Firefox, no matter what one thinks about their change to WE extensions, still has a much larger user base that PM. So that is the direction that luckyrat, the developer of KeeFox and KeePASSRPC took.

So either I need someone who has made KeeFox (and KeePassRPC) work with Windows to explain more completely how you did it, or some user who is capable of modifying code to see if they can create a fork for PM. KeeFox/KeePass is invaluable to what I do every day, and it's incompatablity with PM 28 is why I am still running PM 27.9.4 on my primary Windows computer.

Harry
Last edited by 1210_bex on 2018-10-11, 01:18, edited 2 times in total.

broomsticks

Re: KeeFox/KeePass STILL does not work with PM 28

Unread post by broomsticks » 2018-10-11, 07:24

I have used several password managers while trying to find one that would work with Pale Moon, and other browsers when necessary, and which was also cross-platform.
After a good bit of research and frustrating trial and error, I finally landed on KeepassXC.
It meets all of those requirements, uses a locally stored database and is still being maintained.
It does not require an add-on and I have never used an add-on for KeepassXC.
I can't say if it will do everything that you want, but since you are already familiar with Keepass, it should be a fairly quick adaptation for you.
I am currently using KeepassXC with Pale Moon 32-bit on Windows 10 and also with Pale Moon 64-bit on Linux Mint 19 and MX Linux 17.

Some links:

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Re: KeeFox/KeePass STILL does not work with PM 28

Unread post by 1210_bex » 2018-10-11, 21:15

broomsticks wrote:I have used several password managers while trying to find one that would work with Pale Moon, and other browsers when necessary, and which was also cross-platform.
After a good bit of research and frustrating trial and error, I finally landed on KeepassXC.
It meets all of those requirements, uses a locally stored database and is still being maintained.
It does not require an add-on and I have never used an add-on for KeepassXC.
I can't say if it will do everything that you want, but since you are already familiar with Keepass, it should be a fairly quick adaptation for you.
Thanks for the great info & links. Three questions:
1. Do I need to remove KeePass before installing KeepassXC, or will they not conflict if I install them in different directories? (Assuming that I actuate only one of them)

2. If #1 is a potential problem, can I install KeepassXC on a portable version of PaleMoon? Then conflicts would not be a probem.

2. One of the links you provided talks about KeepassXC-Browser. Does this essentially replace KeeFox? I notice that PaleMoon is not one of the options, but Firefox is. If I check Firefox as the option, will that wok on PM 28?


Harry

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Re: KeeFox/KeePass STILL does not work with PM 28

Unread post by broomsticks » 2018-10-15, 21:12

As far as I know, you can have both programs installed.
There could be possible conflicts if you run both programs at the same time.
Probably not good to use the same password database with both programs!
Copy your current password data file to a different folder, and use that with KeepassXC.

KeepassXC-browser is not compatible with Pale Moon.

You can learn to use Auto-Type. That's what I did.
I use the default global keyboard sequence Ctrl+Alt+A

Here is the info I have about Auto-Type. Most of this documentation refers to "Keepass", but everything should work the same or nearly the same in KeepassXC.

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Re: KeeFox/KeePass STILL does not work with PM 28

Unread post by 1210_bex » 2018-10-15, 23:55

broomsticks:
broomsticks wrote:As far as I know, you can have both programs installed.
There could be possible conflicts if you run both programs at the same time.
Probably not good to use the same password database with both programs!
Copy your current password data file to a different folder, and use that with KeepassXC.

KeepassXC-browser is not compatible with Pale Moon.

You can learn to use Auto-Type. That's what I did.
I use the default global keyboard sequence Ctrl+Alt+A

Here is the info I have about Auto-Type. Most of this documentation refers to "Keepass", but everything should work the same or nearly the same in KeepassXC.
Thanks for all the good information on KeePassXC.

I already use Auto-Type. With KeeFox, Auto-Type fills in all the information as soon as I open the website I want. Without KeeFox, I have to open the website, then open my KeePass database, right click in KeePass on the website in question, and then click 'Perform Auto-Type'. That takes a few extra steps. Does Auto-Type in KeepassXC work in a similar manner?


Harry

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Re: KeeFox/KeePass STILL does not work with PM 28

Unread post by back2themoon » 2018-10-16, 10:43

There's no essential difference in Auto-Type between KeePass and KeePassXC. It's the same thing. No plugins or browser extensions (e.g. KeeFox) are required for Auto-Type to work. Vanilla KP (or KPXC) is enough - nothing else. If anything, KeePass (currently 2.40) is way more configurable than KeePassXC. They are both excellent.

You can also assign a keyboard shortcut for Auto-Type (in both KP and KPXC) so you don't have to right-click anywhere to activate it. See "Global Auto-Type Hot Key".

https://keepass.info/help/base/autotype.html
https://sts10.github.io/2017/06/27/keep ... ting-setup (scroll a bit down)

As broomsticks mentioned, stick to one or the other and avoid using both at the same time. KP supports more fields/features than KPXC currently does, so you might mess your database up. Not very likely, but it can happen.
Last edited by back2themoon on 2018-10-16, 11:08, edited 9 times in total.

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Re: KeeFox/KeePass STILL does not work with PM 28

Unread post by 1210_bex » 2018-10-16, 18:12

back2themoon:
back2themoon wrote:You can also assign a keyboard shortcut for Auto-Type (in both KP and KPXC) so you don't have to right-click anywhere to activate it. See "Global Auto-Type Hot Key".

https://keepass.info/help/base/autotype.html
https://sts10.github.io/2017/06/27/keep ... ting-setup (scroll a bit down)
Thanks for the great info. I never knew that there was a 'Global Auto-Type Hot Key'. Guess since I had KeeFox, I never read all of the KeePass instructions!

I'll give it a try, and let you know how it worked, or if I had any problems.


Harry

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Re: KeeFox/KeePass STILL does not work with PM 28

Unread post by 1210_bex » 2018-10-17, 00:17

back2themoon:
1210_bex wrote:back2themoon:
back2themoon wrote:You can also assign a keyboard shortcut for Auto-Type (in both KP and KPXC) so you don't have to right-click anywhere to activate it. See "Global Auto-Type Hot Key".

https://keepass.info/help/base/autotype.html
https://sts10.github.io/2017/06/27/keep ... ting-setup (scroll a bit down)
Thanks for the great info. I never knew that there was a 'Global Auto-Type Hot Key'. Guess since I had KeeFox, I never read all of the KeePass instructions!

I'll give it a try, and let you know how it worked, or if I had any problems.

Harry
I am running KeePass 2.38. I wasn't sure if KeeFox 1.4.8.1-signed would interfere with this (it wasn't functioning anyway) so I disabled it. I did NOT remove KeePassRPC 1.44 (not even sure how to do that).

I first tried the Global Auto-Type Hot Key Notepad example, using the default CTRL+ALT+A as the Hot key. That worked fine. I then started using CTRL+ALT+A with about 15 or so of the entries I have in KeePass, all of which work in PM 27 using KeeFox. Only about 20% of them worked. For all the rest, there is no entry at all on the screen. I tried with the cursor in the 1st field (usually User Name), just on the page, and in the title line (http:, etc). Nothing occurred at all using any of these methods.

Any idea what the problem might be, or how I would troubleshoot the problem?


Harry

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Re: KeeFox/KeePass STILL does not work with PM 28

Unread post by back2themoon » 2018-10-17, 08:24

Why 2.38 and not 2.40? I think you are confusing Auto-Type with the auto-fill performed by the browser extensions. Auto-type works much differently than the extensions. It does not read URL's from browsers. It relies on the target application's window title. This means it can be used not only on browsers, but also on other programs such as Skype etc.

This also means that for most situations (websites, other programs etc.), it will not work automatically. Pressing the keyboard shortcut won't help you auto-magically. You will first have to configure it for each website/login that you need. Double-click one of your database entries in KeePass and check the Auto-Type section. You need to add specific windows and keystroke sequences there for Auto-Type to recognise a login and work. The default sequence {USERNAME}{TAB}{PASSWORD}{ENTER} will be fine for most websites, but some will require a different sequence, for example extra {TAB} presses.

You need to study the Auto-Type instructions. It might seem daunting at first, but once you learn and configure it, it will work fast with the press of a button.

edit: it seems there's a KeePass plugin named WebAutoType that allows Auto-Type to also read URL's. I've never tried it though and I'd strongly suggest anyone to first learn how Auto-Type works, before relying on any external plugin or extension. I'm just fine using KeePass alone. It auto-fills everything on Pale Moon and elsewhere with a press of a button.
Last edited by back2themoon on 2018-10-17, 08:38, edited 8 times in total.

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Re: KeeFox/KeePass STILL does not work with PM 28

Unread post by 1210_bex » 2018-10-17, 20:50

back2themoon:
back2themoon wrote:Why 2.38 and not 2.40?
Because that is what is on my laptop which has PM 28. I didn't see anything in the Auto-Type instructions that said I had to use 2.40, and I did not want to throw in another variable.
I think you are confusing Auto-Type with the auto-fill performed by the browser extensions. Auto-type works much differently than the extensions. It does not read URL's from browsers. It relies on the target application's window title. This means it can be used not only on browsers, but also on other programs such as Skype etc.
Thanks for that clarification. That point was not clear to me when I set up the Notepad example that was given. On it, one clicked on the body of Notepad when it was open.
This also means that for most situations (websites, other programs etc.), it will not work automatically. Pressing the keyboard shortcut won't help you auto-magically. You will first have to configure it for each website/login that you need.

Double-click one of your database entries in KeePass and check the Auto-Type section. You need to add specific windows and keystroke sequences there for Auto-Type to recognise a login and work. The default sequence {USERNAME}{TAB}{PASSWORD}{ENTER} will be fine for most websites, but some will require a different sequence, for example extra {TAB} presses.
I did all that when I was using KeeFox. That is what is confusing me. ALL of my database entries are set up to use Auto-Type. Some will work with the default {USERNAME}{TAB}{PASSWORD}{ENTER} but most won't. So each of those is set up differently, as required.

As I said, about 20% of the ones I tried worked, and the remainder did not. So here is the procedure I used:
1. Signin to KeePass, so the database is accesible.
2. Open my browser (PM 28 in this case).
3. Each of my database entries have their webpage bookmarked to go to it's logon page. So I click on the appropriate bookmark, and it's logon opens.
4. I click CTRL+ALT+A, which is what I have KeePass setup to use.

So what am I doing wrong?

Harry

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Re: KeeFox/KeePass STILL does not work with PM 28

Unread post by back2themoon » 2018-10-17, 21:15

When you press the shortcut, does the Auto-Type Entry Selection window appear?

If it doesn't, you have not configured Auto-Type correctly for that particular website/login. Check the window title. For example, Pale Moon appends " - Pale Moon" on the title bar (= on every window title). You need to add an asterisk in the Target Window to ignore that part, and you need to create a Target Window for every login.

If it does, the correct selection is made and nothing happens, the sequence is wrong. Note if the first field box (usually the username) is active when you first land on a logon page, just before pressing the shortcut. The sequence is usually different if the first field is not active (TAB presses are required to get to the username field). Alternatively, you can make it active yourself with TAB or the mouse.
Last edited by back2themoon on 2018-10-17, 21:22, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: KeeFox/KeePass STILL does not work with PM 28

Unread post by 1210_bex » 2018-10-19, 03:39

back2themoon wrote:When you press the shortcut, does the Auto-Type Entry Selection window appear?
The Auto-Type instructions did not tell me to check this option <g>. Thanks for making me look for why I didn't have it. It made the solution much easier.

My 'Title' in KeePass describes why I have the entry, and does not necessarily relates to what is in the window title. The entries that worked for me initially just happened to have a match. For the others, I have been opening the entry, seeing what is on the title line, and then adding one of the words as a Tag for that entry. So far that has worked, so I assume that will continue to work.
If it doesn't, you have not configured Auto-Type correctly for that particular website/login. Check the window title. For example, Pale Moon appends " - Pale Moon" on the title bar (= on every window title). You need to add an asterisk in the Target Window to ignore that part, and you need to create a Target Window for every login.
Could you expand on this? I don't understand what you need to have done. The words 'Pale Moon' does show on the title bar, but I hasn't affected any of the ones I have that work: both the ones that worked previously, and the ones that I added the Tag to.


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Re: KeeFox/KeePass STILL does not work with PM 28

Unread post by back2themoon » 2018-10-19, 09:25

Do you still have KeePass browser extensions/plugins installed? If so, disable/uninstall them because they may be interfering here. I'd also again suggest to use the latest KeePass version.

Sometimes, Auto-Type will recognise a website/login even without any Target window entries. I am not 100% sure how/why this happens (if anyone knows, please let me know) but for most websites you will need to add at least one Target window entry.

Let's take this forum as an example. If you go to the Forum index and press the Login button, the window title when viewed on the Pale Moon browser will be:
Pale Moon forum - User Control Panel - Login - Pale Moon

On Firefox it will be:
Pale Moon forum - User Control Panel - Login - Mozilla Firefox
On some other browser it might be:
Other browser - Pale Moon forum - User Control Panel - Login

(continued)

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Re: KeeFox/KeePass STILL does not work with PM 28

Unread post by back2themoon » 2018-10-19, 09:27

This means that for Auto-type to recognise all 3 above situations, the Target window should be:
*Pale Moon forum - User Control Panel - Login*
(see Target Window Filters in the Auto-Type instructions)

If you try to login from another section of the forum and not the Index, for example if you are trying to reply to a thread, the Window title might be different:
Pale Moon forum - Login - Pale Moon

In order to include this situation too, your Target window entry should be:
*Pale Moon forum*

You could make the Target window even more generic, like *Pale* but it's not a good idea because Auto-Type will recognise multiple websites at once, for example if you visit the Pale Kitchen forum.

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Re: KeeFox/KeePass STILL does not work with PM 28

Unread post by 1210_bex » 2018-10-19, 21:41

back2themoon:

First, thanks for all the great info in both messages about Target Window Filters, and the examples you gave. I now understand what I need to do regarding the " * " addition so that both my PM and Firefox can use the Global Auto-Type feature.
back2themoon wrote:Do you still have KeePass browser extensions/plugins installed? If so, disable/uninstall them because they may be interfering here. I'd also again suggest to use the latest KeePass version.
I have disabled KeeFox 1.4.8.1-signed. I cannot determine how to either disable or delete safely KeePassRPC 1.4.4.0. I can go to where it is installed, and delete the KeePassPRC.plgx file, but I wasn't sure that was either the correct thing to do, or sufficient. I looked at the KeePass website, but could not find anything about removing their plugins.

If you can tell me the correct procedure, I will do it.

Once that is done, I'll upgrade to the latest version of KeePass.

Harry

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Re: KeeFox/KeePass STILL does not work with PM 28

Unread post by back2themoon » 2018-10-20, 07:44

Assuming it is a PLGX plugin (never used one - make sure you know what you are doing and backup your database), I found this about uninstallation. There may be some files in your Pale Moon profile (as indicated here) that you should also remove.

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Re: KeeFox/KeePass STILL does not work with PM 28

Unread post by 1210_bex » 2018-10-21, 00:22

back2themoon:
back2themoon wrote:Assuming it is a PLGX plugin (never used one - make sure you know what you are doing and backup your database), I found this about uninstallation. There may be some files in your Pale Moon profile (as indicated here) that you should also remove.
You have this great ability to find info that I cannot. Thanks.

My KeePassRPC is located in the folder that the second link you provided mentions. So I think I can safely delete it that way (I will back everything up first).


Harry

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Re: KeeFox/KeePass STILL does not work with PM 28

Unread post by back2themoon » 2018-10-21, 16:08

Sometimes, Auto-Type will recognise a website/login even without any Target window entries. I am not 100% sure how/why this happens but for most websites you will need to add at least one Target window entry.
Answer was simple: by pressing the HotKey, KeePass does not only look for matches in the Target Window list, but also on the main entry Title. If there's a match there, it will appear in the Auto-Type Entry Selection window even if there are no Target window entries. These are mostly meant for additional/custom sequences/windows, and they are not mandatory for Auto-Type to work.

In my case, it didn't work because for many entries I've included additional, descriptive information to the main entry Title ("tick box", "username only" etc.).
Last edited by back2themoon on 2018-10-21, 16:09, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: KeeFox/KeePass STILL does not work with PM 28

Unread post by 1210_bex » 2018-10-21, 18:57

back2themoon:
back2themoon wrote:
Sometimes, Auto-Type will recognise a website/login even without any Target window entries. I am not 100% sure how/why this happens but for most websites you will need to add at least one Target window entry.
Answer was simple: by pressing the HotKey, KeePass does not only look for matches in the Target Window list, but also on the main entry Title. If there's a match there, it will appear in the Auto-Type Entry Selection window even if there are no Target window entries. These are mostly meant for additional/custom sequences/windows, and they are not mandatory for Auto-Type to work.

In my case, it didn't work because for many entries I've included additional, descriptive information to the main entry Title ("tick box", "username only" etc.).
Thanks for that clarification.

I removed KeePassRPC. I first removed it from : C:\Program Files (x86)......KeePass/plugs. Then, although I didn't completely understand the 2nd link you sent me to, there are relevant .dll files in C:\....AppData\Local\KeePass\PluginCache, so I deleted the relevant folder there for KeePassRPC. Then I upgraded KeePass to 2.40.

This whole Global Key process is very time consuming for me, since my KeePass Titles bear no relation to what is on the website's window title. So I have to go through them one at a time, see what is on the title. then add that to the Target Window on the KeePass Auto-Type page. And that creates some problems of it's own, at least for me.

Go to: https://user.aaii.com/sso/login.aspx?vi ... 20fd187548

What would you use as the Target for this one: Single Sign On? I have AAII in my main entry title, but that is not enough for the Hot Key to find the site.

Now this one: https://www.morningstar.com/members/log ... tar.com%2F

I have to manually click in the Email address line to provide a reference starting position. I have several websites like this. Is there a way to handle that ? I can't find anything in the KeePass variables that might address that.


Harry

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Re: KeeFox/KeePass STILL does not work with PM 28

Unread post by back2themoon » 2018-10-21, 19:29

Remember, Auto-Type only uses window titles, nothing else. You don't have to type them - when adding a target window, KeePass shows you in the drop-down menu all of your currently open window titles. Just select the correct one.

For your first link, it will have to be Single Sign On only. AAII is irrelevant because it is not in the window (=webpage) title. So, if you add AAII it will actually 'break' Auto-Type for this login page (the word is not there so, no match). You can keep AAII in your main entry so you'd know what this is about, and add a target window (Single Sign On) for Auto-Type to work.

By the way, most web pages add their brand name to all of their web page titles and this helps with Auto-Type. There are some however that don't, and AAII is one of those. Perhaps you may even encounter a login with no title at all - it's blank. These are rare and perhaps even "out of spec" (just a guess). In the above situation, if you encounter a completely different website that also uses the "Single Sign On" title, the Auto-Type Entry Selection window will suggest you both websites, you'll have to be careful to click the correct one. This is the scenario where browser extensions are more flexible than Auto-Type, because they also check URL's which are unique.

For the 2nd link, it should be Morningstar | Log In, or even Morningstar* if there are other morningstar.com login pages with a different title.

"I have to manually click in the Email address line to provide a reference starting position" - this I did not understand.

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