Split Post: Why not run lots of add-ons?

General discussion, compatibility and contributed extensions.

Moderators: FranklinDM, Lootyhoof

User avatar
Apollo702
Fanatic
Fanatic
Posts: 142
Joined: 2012-08-06, 10:04
Location: Far from civlization

Split Post: Why not run lots of add-ons?

Post by Apollo702 » 2013-01-28, 05:33

While reading another topic a number of posts said that they avoid running add-ons and MC weighed in stating how PM itself is not designed to include every feature so the users can make their own choices. That is the fundamental concept of open sourced software. Rather than a giant corporation with something to sell dictating what we get open source is all about user choice.

The way I like to think of it is open sourced software is a cheese pizza. As-downloaded it is deliberately plain. The users then pick their own toppings and in many ways can vastly take the software to all new levels.

I come from the camp that believes that add-ons are there to be run and I regularly run in the ballpark of 130 of them. Every now and then a couple get added or a couple get dropped for various reasons but the core largely is stable for me. There are over 10,000 of them so the % that I have found to be true winners IMO is really only 1%- but what a difference the good ones make.

What I have found is after years of experimentation I have been able to create something of beauty and speed is never an issue- and in countless ways the add-ons actually speed up my flow. Their combined footprint is miniscule and the benefits are huge. Some of them provide radical changes and many make only minor or cosmetic touches. Most don't need to be toggled or adjusted on a regular basis as most are only part-time, situational or run silently in the background.

In short- my view is the big spammy browsers are nothing but ad-delivery devices- therefore they never will have an emphasis on safety and privacy. That would defeat their very purpose for existence. Also, who would write add-ons limited by the corporate rules instead of open source? Therefore their add-on catalogs are going to be pathetic.

I always cringe when I hear that Chrome is sold as fast. Even if it is in actual real world use will users really notice any difference between it and a well configured PM? Is getting blasted out of your chair by all of those ads worth milliseconds of speed? Really, the factors that matter are going to be your connection speed and the individual page. I would vote to take all the metrics with a grain of salt because in real world usage will they really be a factor at all?

I would very much like to hear others experience and opinions on this subject.





dark_moon

Re: Split Post: Why not run lots of add-ons?

Post by dark_moon » 2013-01-28, 16:51

Some addons can slow down the browser.
Mozilla write a list of the top 10 oder 20 "slowest" addons.

So this one argument.
Another is the security. Addons can have security holes and websites can maybe use this- or the addon itself make somethink crazy sh#t with your data.

And last but not least is the reason what addons have problems with other addons.
For example if you use addons for the same purpose.

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 26139
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: 58°2'16"N 14°58'31"E
Contact:

Re: Split Post: Why not run lots of add-ons?

Post by Moonchild » 2013-01-28, 17:17

tl;dr: Use common sense when using add-ons :)
"There will be times when the position you advocate, no matter how well framed and supported, will not be accepted by the public simply because you are who you are." -- Merrill Rose
Image

User avatar
Rohugh
Keeps coming back
Keeps coming back
Posts: 781
Joined: 2012-05-01, 22:56
Location: Spain
Contact:

Re: Split Post: Why not run lots of add-ons?

Post by Rohugh » 2013-01-28, 17:44

Mozilla have always pushed the addons for their browser but don't give information, or warnings, about possible conflicts. Over time I learned that the majority of addons are not necessary and only add weight and slowness to the browser.
Gaming:- Win 10 X64 2TB HD : 128GB SSD/16GB RAM · Pale Moon 26.1.1 (X64)
Desktop:- Win 10 X64 500GB HD/1TB External HD/8GB RAM · Pale Moon 26.1.1 (X86)
Laptop:- Win 10 X64 1TB HD/4GB RAM · Pale Moon 26.1.1

User avatar
Night Wing
Knows the dark side
Knows the dark side
Posts: 4145
Joined: 2011-10-03, 10:19
Location: Texas, USA

Re: Split Post: Why not run lots of add-ons?

Post by Night Wing » 2013-01-29, 04:35

I only use two add-ons (IE Tab V2, NoSquint) for both Pale Moon and Firefox.
Linux Mint 19.3 (Tricia) Xfce 64 Bit with 64 Bit linux Pale Moon

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 26139
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: 58°2'16"N 14°58'31"E
Contact:

Re: Split Post: Why not run lots of add-ons?

Post by Moonchild » 2013-01-29, 11:05

I use 11 of them, and there is no impact on my browsing speed because of them. The only thing you DO need to keep track of is that you only use compatible add-ons. Forcing compatibility of add-ons to a browser version outside of the supported range is where the problems start. This is, of course, due to the rabid release schedule of the Firefox team and add-ons developers going "I don't have time to update/overhaul my add-on every 6 weeks" and users going "I need this add-on but want to stay secure".

The problem add-on developers face is the same problem I face whenever I need to switch to a new major version of the Firefox code: hundreds of undocumented changes to the way the browser works. Well, they may be documented in bugzilla, but try to find the relevant bug# and patch to see what has changed, lumped in with thousands (literally!) of other bugs in an endless list for each major release... it's nigh impossible.
"There will be times when the position you advocate, no matter how well framed and supported, will not be accepted by the public simply because you are who you are." -- Merrill Rose
Image

User avatar
ron_1
Moon Magic practitioner
Moon Magic practitioner
Posts: 2174
Joined: 2012-06-28, 01:20

Re: Split Post: Why not run lots of add-ons?

Post by ron_1 » 2013-01-29, 19:17

I really enjoyed reading your original post, Apollo702. I especially liked your "plain cheese pizza" analogy.
Plain cheese pizza is one of my favorites (really), so I guess it's no surprise that I don't like to run any add-ons. :)

User avatar
Apollo702
Fanatic
Fanatic
Posts: 142
Joined: 2012-08-06, 10:04
Location: Far from civlization

Re: Split Post: Why not run lots of add-ons?

Post by Apollo702 » 2013-01-30, 19:56

I read all of the posts and I found all of the perspectives interesting. I should state that I had the good fortune to have retired long ago and I have the luxury of nothing but free time. I have spent the past couple of years on some very specific tech projects and one of them was sweeping the entire add-on catalog and I very much stand by the 1% keeper ratio.

A number of people indicated speed would be an issue and I have seen that to be partially true. There are a number of slowpokes in the catalog to be avoided- including on the featured list. One of the first people to be fired at Mozilla should be the guy who puts the featured list together as they clearly never have actually run some of the real 1 star crash and burns. It would be like buying a car from a salesman who never has actually sat in the car and driven it!

The other thing I have found is too many of the reviews are obvious fakes( "Gee! This is perfect! This is what I always have wanted!") and Mozilla wildly rounds the ratings up to give the average add-on 4 stars. Furthermore they allow developers to delete reviews that they don't like- further inflating the ratings. Still, despite all of this if you read the ratings carefully there is some crowd wisdom. If you put in the time there are all kinds of improvements to be found but it almost is like dating. You will get a whole bunch of false leads and have to sort through a lot of garbage before you find real keepers.


Blacklab
Astronaut
Astronaut
Posts: 734
Joined: 2012-06-08, 12:14
Location: Scotland UK

Re: Split Post: Why not run lots of add-ons?

Post by Blacklab » 2013-01-30, 22:47

Apollo702 wrote:Furthermore they (Mozilla AMO) allow developers to delete (Addon) reviews that they don't like....
That might explain where a couple of my negative Addon reviews disappeared to.... never followed it up.... but they definitely got (re)moved! :shifty:

Still can't imagine how you can even remember what 130 Addons are doing? How do you keep track of them - "MAD" Multiple Addon Deactivator 1.7 perhaps? Surely they can't all be enabled at once? Is this all only one profile? Coming from the KISS end of the browsing spectrum (8 Addons + 2 Plugins + 1 PM Persona) I am almost struck dumb! :)
If you are feeling brave I would be intrigued to see the list, perhaps just your "top 50" to avoid RSI/tl;dr and the "hide" button would seem advisable! :lol:

User avatar
Apollo702
Fanatic
Fanatic
Posts: 142
Joined: 2012-08-06, 10:04
Location: Far from civlization

Re: Split Post: Why not run lots of add-ons?

Post by Apollo702 » 2013-01-30, 23:19

Still can't imagine how you can even remember what 130 Addons are doing? How do you keep track of them? Surely they can't all be enabled at once? Is this all only one profile? Coming from the KISS end of the browsing spectrum (8 Addons + 2 Plugins + 1 PM Persona) I am almost struck dumb! :)
Actually it is remarkably easy because almost all of them don't require active management. The vast majority run silently in the background or only make minor changes. Many of them are situational. However, this is part of my reason for constantly obsessing over the UI. I put a bunch of the controls on the toolbars where they can be seen as opposed to the current minimalist obsession. This way I can do virtually anything I want with just a click or two if the situation comes up. If I want to save a video click. If I want to toggle Flash click, if I want to zoom in or out... Then what I do is on the toolbars I put them in groups. I put all the security in one group, privacy next to it, cleanup next to that...

Also, if you want my complete list send me your email and I will copy the dumplist. The cool part is I can clone the setup in seconds. I use a mass installer which also includes all settings. I also keep copies of the toolbar setup to avoid spending all day dragging and dropping the icons around. If something ever went wrong with my computers or I wanted to export the setup it is all just a few clicks away. :)

If you are feeling brave I would be intrigued to see the list, perhaps just your "top 50" to avoid RSI/tl;dr and the "hide" button would seem advisable! :lol:
You might be onto something there! I bet that I could put together a hall of shame. I try to be fair and I do give many positive reviews on there when they are called for- but the number of 1 star add-ons in the catalog is just frightening. :? One myth that I want to bust is that everyone who works with tech must by nature be brilliant . All the bad and sloppy tech is proof that is a myth.


User avatar
Rohugh
Keeps coming back
Keeps coming back
Posts: 781
Joined: 2012-05-01, 22:56
Location: Spain
Contact:

Re: Split Post: Why not run lots of add-ons?

Post by Rohugh » 2013-01-31, 00:27

Apollo702 wrote: However, this is part of my reason for constantly obsessing over the UI. I put a bunch of the controls on the toolbars where they can be seen as opposed to the current minimalist obsession. This way I can do virtually anything I want with just a click or two if the situation comes up. If I want to save a video click. If I want to toggle Flash click, if I want to zoom in or out... Then what I do is on the toolbars I put them in groups. I put all the security in one group, privacy next to it, cleanup next to that...

Goodness, this nightmare vision came to mind when I read that :(

I am a minimalist, 11 add-ons, a couple of plug ins and two toolbars - tab bar and navigation bar and a bookmark side bar, the rest of the screen space is for what it is designed for - browsing the internet.
Gaming:- Win 10 X64 2TB HD : 128GB SSD/16GB RAM · Pale Moon 26.1.1 (X64)
Desktop:- Win 10 X64 500GB HD/1TB External HD/8GB RAM · Pale Moon 26.1.1 (X86)
Laptop:- Win 10 X64 1TB HD/4GB RAM · Pale Moon 26.1.1

User avatar
Apollo702
Fanatic
Fanatic
Posts: 142
Joined: 2012-08-06, 10:04
Location: Far from civlization

Re: Split Post: Why not run lots of add-ons?

Post by Apollo702 » 2013-01-31, 00:36

Goodness, this nightmare vision came to mind when I read that :(
I have my reasons for not posting my setup on here but no, it is nothing like that :lol: . My system is very easy to operate and I have taught it to grannies.

My reasoning for having the controls up front is fairly simple. 99% of the public are not advanced users who hang out in tech forums and they think that operating tech is only for a genetically lucky few. I say that the industry actively sabotages people by hiding the controls in order to keep them as captive for advertising. When people think that it takes an IT degree to do something simple like saving a video I show them that they can do it with a click or two.

In short, although I have a bunch of icons the focus is on simplification and granny-proofing tech.


Soldier1st

Re: Split Post: Why not run lots of add-ons?

Post by Soldier1st » 2013-02-01, 22:10

What moonchild mentioned about addon compatibility makes sense. I agree with that. For me, i only run maybe 12 or less addons. I don't feel like turning my browser into a christmas tree for no good use. this site has a good explanation https://sites.google.com/site/easylinuxtipsproject/firefox

steviem1
Keeps coming back
Keeps coming back
Posts: 813
Joined: 2012-03-24, 09:42
Location: Spain

Re: Split Post: Why not run lots of add-ons?

Post by steviem1 » 2013-02-02, 19:56

Apollo702 wrote: I come from the camp that believes that add-ons are there to be run and I regularly run in the ballpark of 130 of them.
Crumbs, I run 50 add-ons and I thought that was a lot, but I think if you're discerning with the one's you choose to use and they don't slow up your browser too much, it's not a problem. :)

User avatar
Apollo702
Fanatic
Fanatic
Posts: 142
Joined: 2012-08-06, 10:04
Location: Far from civlization

Re: Split Post: Why not run lots of add-ons?

Post by Apollo702 » 2013-02-04, 11:02

In regards to the article https://sites.google.com/site/easylinuxtipsproject/firefoxthe only thing I have to say is it is bunk. I have spent years testing these things out and there is neither a loss of speed and I very much would like to see these security holes. In fact a correctly set up and operated PM is far more effective for security than most dedicated security programs. As far as speed goes with well chosen add-ons their overall footprint is going to be miniscule and the benefits of them could actually speed up browsing. Think of all the pages that you could load without being bombarded with all of those ads.

I had the good fortune of retiring long ago so I have spent the past few years doing nothing but testing these things. I also regularly observe common users and see how they really use their computers and then base solutions on what actually gets it done for those without IT degrees. I also have asked my hacker friends to bring their computers over to my office and see what they could do. I deliberately opened up infected links and have gone to virus sites and nothing happened. Copying articles is one thing, testing things out in real world situations is quite another.


Thrawn

Re: Split Post: Why not run lots of add-ons?

Post by Thrawn » 2013-02-08, 13:05

Currently running with 32 addons, mostly security/privacy related. Not all of them are critical, but I certainly haven't noticed problems as a result of having them. I certainly agree that some of them, like NoScript and RequestPolicy, actually make browsing faster by blocking junk.

If I really had to cut it down to one or two, then I would pick NoScript and RequestPolicy.

User avatar
Apollo702
Fanatic
Fanatic
Posts: 142
Joined: 2012-08-06, 10:04
Location: Far from civlization

Re: Split Post: Why not run lots of add-ons?

Post by Apollo702 » 2013-02-09, 20:07

Thrawn wrote:If I really had to cut it down to one or two, then I would pick NoScript and RequestPolicy.
Amen brother! If I had to choose NoScript would be the absolute must and RP would probably be 2nd. When I earlier said that I deliberately opened infected links and went to virus sites those are at the heart of how they weren't able to do anything. They really make that big of a difference.


User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 26139
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: 58°2'16"N 14°58'31"E
Contact:

Re: Split Post: Why not run lots of add-ons?

Post by Moonchild » 2013-02-09, 20:48

But.. you don't have to pick and choose ;) As you've seen, running a large number of add-ons is perfectly fine.
"There will be times when the position you advocate, no matter how well framed and supported, will not be accepted by the public simply because you are who you are." -- Merrill Rose
Image

User avatar
Apollo702
Fanatic
Fanatic
Posts: 142
Joined: 2012-08-06, 10:04
Location: Far from civlization

Re: Split Post: Why not run lots of add-ons?

Post by Apollo702 » 2013-02-09, 21:08

You would be shocked at how many I tested and do not run. I spent a million years trying add-ons out- maybe even a million and one? It was a lot! :lol:


User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 26139
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: 58°2'16"N 14°58'31"E
Contact:

Re: Split Post: Why not run lots of add-ons?

Post by Moonchild » 2013-02-09, 21:41

Limiting yourself to 2 is silly though ;) not saying they all run, and not saying a bunch of them aren't problematic, just saying that if you have found a good add-on, you shouldn't feel inhibited in your search for more to run if you need more functionality :)
"There will be times when the position you advocate, no matter how well framed and supported, will not be accepted by the public simply because you are who you are." -- Merrill Rose
Image

Locked