Automatic Pale Moon Add-on Conversion

Add-ons for Pale Moon and other UXP Applications
General discussion, compatibility, contributed extensions, themes, plugins, and more.

Moderators: FranklinDM, Lootyhoof

User avatar
RealityRipple
Lunatic
Lunatic
Posts: 429
Joined: 2018-05-17, 02:34
Location: Los Berros Canyon, California
Contact:

Re: Automatic Pale Moon Add-on Conversion

Unread post by RealityRipple » 2021-07-23, 18:00

It's not a technological discussion, it's a user-capability discussion. The reason I made this tool is because users are not capable of maintaining their favorite add-ons. They're not even capable of the very first step. Apollo was intended to make the first step easier.

User avatar
New Tobin Paradigm
Knows the dark side
Knows the dark side
Posts: 10455
Joined: 2012-10-09, 19:37
Location: The Seriphia Galaxy

Re: Automatic Pale Moon Add-on Conversion

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-07-23, 18:07

You want total anarchy for users to "maintain" "their" extensions. That is EXACTLY the same thing Moon Tester Tool does and for the exact reason JustOff created it. It is the wrong approch for a vibrant living extensions ecosystem all users can benefit from.

Your and his tool teaches nothing about anything other than press a button or blindly perform actions they don't understand for selfish and base gimmie-gimmie-gimmie desires.

You want to help users take the first steps to being developers them selves (aka being the agents of their own salvation) and collaborating within a community and living ecosystem? Teach them how. Show them how by example and basic lessons not selfish catchall gimmie "tools".

You are a decently accomplished XUL Extension Developer. You can share what you know without all this bullshit. Make some up to date tutorials and examples. Do more of your collaborative research helping the few extension developers we do have out. That was pretty cool.

Just because you can create a technological "solution" to about any problem doesn't mean it is ALWAYS the correct thing to do. Sometimes the human solution is superior to the technological one.
Last edited by New Tobin Paradigm on 2021-07-23, 18:18, edited 1 time in total.
Conversion Software Version 7.0
Image

User avatar
RealityRipple
Lunatic
Lunatic
Posts: 429
Joined: 2018-05-17, 02:34
Location: Los Berros Canyon, California
Contact:

Re: Automatic Pale Moon Add-on Conversion

Unread post by RealityRipple » 2021-07-23, 18:18

I did. For this exact task. When the phase-out was first announced. And I think the topic it was in got deleted.

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 30811
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Tranås, SE
Contact:

Re: Automatic Pale Moon Add-on Conversion

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-07-23, 18:22

RealityRipple wrote:
2021-07-23, 17:54
You guys are expecting users to know how to open a zip file that isn't named ".zip". They don't. That's literally it.
So you'll just give them a black box to drop all those things in and do it for them so they don't HAVE to know jack shit or understand that we're not Firefox (since they will think we are if their Firefox extensions continue to work... remember who we are talking about), or that the extensions aren't designed for Pale Moon and will break or break the browser. And they can remain totally ignorant as to why their browser runs like shit as a result and guess who they will blame on their social media accounts for that?... exactly.

The damage in this case is extensive and not hypothetical. and i'm pretty sure you are well aware of that with how you responded now.

Now don't get me wrong... I want Pale Moon to succeed and extensions to flourish, and will bend over backwards for people who are genuinely invested in helping fellow users of the browser. I will give a lot of leniency (to be fair a regular point of strife between Tobin and I) because I believe that it must be possible for people to collaborate and cooperate in a genuine, mutual atmosphere of working positively towards set goals.

BUT: Just because you're a "3rd party"/volunteer doesn't mean you can just be irresponsible to what you contribute to. If you get involved, you also take on a certain level of responsibility for what you contribute to. If you can't, then you shouldn't be involved.

Since I haven't seen any sort of apology and you've been defending your decision to make this tool with "I chose the users over you" I guess at this point I just have to assume it wasn't an honest mistake, you did realize it was bad for the project but couldn't resist the power trip.

I guess this is why we can't have nice things. :sick: :|
"Son, in life you do not fight battles because you expect to win, you fight them merely because they need to be fought." -- Snagglepuss
"It kind of sucks when you realize that being human is a scarce commodity." -- Bob Bilheimer
Image

User avatar
New Tobin Paradigm
Knows the dark side
Knows the dark side
Posts: 10455
Joined: 2012-10-09, 19:37
Location: The Seriphia Galaxy

Re: Automatic Pale Moon Add-on Conversion

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-07-23, 18:52

I am still livid he did this but regardless of that my semi-objective stance is that RealityRipple is at a crossroads where he needs to choose a path for himself as you said Moonchild.

He does indeed need to pick if he is going forward as an ally and a positive collaborative and contributory force for developers and users alike or will become the next JustOff. I truly hope for the former but at this point won't be personally surprised if he chooses the latter. It is how our luck goes most of the time. I can say this, he won't be given five years to jerk us around while he makes up his mind.

Again, I hope in a few years I can look back at this thread and explain that sometimes people make stupid mistakes but they can come back from it and continue on to greater things. Much rather do that than just add this as another bulletpoint as to why things haven't successfully progressed or worse the reasons why I had to leave in the end.
Conversion Software Version 7.0
Image

User avatar
athenian200
Contributing developer
Contributing developer
Posts: 419
Joined: 2018-10-28, 19:56
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Automatic Pale Moon Add-on Conversion

Unread post by athenian200 » 2021-07-23, 19:55

RealityRipple wrote:
2021-07-23, 16:48
You can either work for the ecosystem or you can work for the users. I 100% understand why you guys all must choose the ecosystem, but I'll always choose the users.
Well, I was afraid that might be your reasoning, and I can't condone it because it's really part of the reason why we are where we are right now. You see, the situation with Moon Tester Tool combined with the push to maintain compatibility with legacy extensions has basically meant that no one has bothered to learn how to update these extensions, and the burden is instead placed on us to remain compatible with every extension that was ever released. That's not a sustainable situation.

The problem is that basically, without an ecosystem, eventually there is nothing for the users. So really what we're talking about is the long-term interests of the users vs. the short-term interests of the users. A tool like this serves short-term interests at the expense of the long-term interests, while what we're trying to do is create an environment where people are basically forced to put their long-term interests ahead of short-term pain... that is, to create a sustainable future for the project rather than just run out the clock and keep the old stuff from breaking for as long as we can. That's actually very hard to do, just look at how difficult it is to get people to save for their retirement rather than spend every cent they earn. Human beings have a natural and self-destructive tendency to focus on short-term gains and downplay long-term pain. So many people that join this project want the opposite approach that was already tried for years... and there's a lot of impatience with that approach, because it has resulted in seemingly well-meaning people holding back development for ages because they can't bear to see the users struggling along without an extension they've gotten used to until it's fixed properly.

People who haven't been heavily involved for a long time and seen the problems first-hand just never seem to get it, and want to repeat mistakes that were already made. I would go so far as to say that your empathy for the users suffering short-term is actually clouding your judgment about what is best long-term, and we've found that the cycle of new people starting to participate and wanting to repeat the same mistakes isn't something that can resolve itself naturally, but has to be dealt with very seriously. Yes, we want people to help, but the help has to be the right kind. The kind where you teach a man to fish rather than give him a fish and feed him for a day. We've given out too many fish already, and the time is approaching where people will either have to learn how to fish or go hungry. That sounds harsh, I know, but it's not compassionate to keep people in a cycle of dependency, to take away their pain so they don't have to improve themselves. I hope that makes sense.

You have to learn how to think in terms of a larger, long-term vision, and looking beyond what's right in front of you to a certain extent. Sometimes what's happening right now is the least important thing, and you have to think in terms of what the implications will be in a few years if you relieve the short-term pain now and remove the incentive pushing people towards better solutions. The user capabilities will simply have to improve, at least at first. Maybe after we have more extension developers able to provide a more "full-service" situation things won't be as bad, but the last thing we need is people who know just enough to be dangerous creating temporary hacks that won't last and prolonging the dependency/suffering cycle of incapable users. I understand we might lose some of those users to Chrome or Edge, but ultimately, that is where they would have likely wound up anyway if they remained stuck at their current level of skill rather than challenging themselves.

Basically, we can't afford to keep sacrificing our future to keep catering to people who are unwilling to grow or learn, who want us to stay in the past.
"The rising sun will eventually set / A newborn's life will fade. / From sun to moon, moon to sun... / Give peaceful rest to the living dead." — The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time

Image

User avatar
RealityRipple
Lunatic
Lunatic
Posts: 429
Joined: 2018-05-17, 02:34
Location: Los Berros Canyon, California
Contact:

Re: Automatic Pale Moon Add-on Conversion

Unread post by RealityRipple » 2021-07-23, 20:34

I think you're asking too much of a userbase that essentially developed because it was resistant to change to begin with.

You're trying to make Pale Moon the center of the Pale Moon ecosystem, as it should be. But, as I've seen it, the center of this one was always Firefox extensions. I'm not sure it'll survive the transition.

User avatar
New Tobin Paradigm
Knows the dark side
Knows the dark side
Posts: 10455
Joined: 2012-10-09, 19:37
Location: The Seriphia Galaxy

Re: Automatic Pale Moon Add-on Conversion

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-07-23, 20:37

RealityRipple wrote:
2021-07-23, 20:34
I'm not sure it'll survive the transition.
As I said over months and years.. If we do nothing or simply JustOff the problem away that outcome is already assured.

At least this way there is a fighting chance.
Conversion Software Version 7.0
Image

User avatar
RealityRipple
Lunatic
Lunatic
Posts: 429
Joined: 2018-05-17, 02:34
Location: Los Berros Canyon, California
Contact:

Re: Automatic Pale Moon Add-on Conversion

Unread post by RealityRipple » 2021-07-23, 20:59

Then I think you guys need to stop suggesting users learn themselves and start saying unequivocally that Pale Moon is a different application from Firefox the same way Thunderbird is a different application from Firefox, and that in the same way you wouldn't expect a FF extension to work on TB, you should not expect it to work on Pale Moon unless it was built for Pale Moon. Not doing so is keeping the hope alive for someone to come along and do the transition work for them; that there is a transition to be done. Skirting the middle is only going to create animosity, not transition.

Attronarch
Apollo supporter
Apollo supporter
Posts: 42
Joined: 2016-03-21, 12:35

Re: Automatic Pale Moon Add-on Conversion

Unread post by Attronarch » 2021-07-23, 21:15

RealityRipple wrote:
2021-07-23, 20:59
Then I think you guys need to stop suggesting users learn themselves and start saying unequivocally that Pale Moon is a different application from Firefox the same way Thunderbird is a different application from Firefox, and that in the same way you wouldn't expect a FF extension to work on TB, you should not expect it to work on Pale Moon unless it was built for Pale Moon.
Doesn't this announcement say that?

And when the user opens the Add-ons Manager, they are greeted with a sobbing fox and "Unmaintained Firefox Extensions Notice" in large type.

The message that the transition period is over seems clear to me.

User avatar
athenian200
Contributing developer
Contributing developer
Posts: 419
Joined: 2018-10-28, 19:56
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Automatic Pale Moon Add-on Conversion

Unread post by athenian200 » 2021-07-23, 21:36

RealityRipple wrote:
2021-07-23, 20:34
I think you're asking too much of a userbase that essentially developed because it was resistant to change to begin with.

You're trying to make Pale Moon the center of the Pale Moon ecosystem, as it should be. But, as I've seen it, the center of this one was always Firefox extensions. I'm not sure it'll survive the transition.
I definitely understand that fear. I have worried a lot that many elements of our userbase only cared about legacy support, and therefore won't give us the kind of support we need to create something that actually has a future now that it's necessary. But at this point, the transition has to happen. We either die trying to transition, or die of the stagnation many of our users seem to want. Sometimes I wish we'd gotten more forward-thinking people involved from the beginning, and worry this mentality of resisting change without having a clear idea of what the alternative should be has held us back a lot.

It's kind of a difficult situation, because it seems like Firefox was all about random and destructive changes towards a Chrome-like vision. And now we want to make a lot of changes towards a new vision that is in opposition to the Chrome-like one. The problem is that from the perspective of people who just want everything to stay the same, change is change and it's all bad because it's different from what they know. It's very difficult to get people who are strongly change-averse in general to distinguish positive change towards a desirable vision, from negative change towards an undesirable vision.
Then I think you guys need to stop suggesting users learn themselves and start saying unequivocally that Pale Moon is a different application from Firefox the same way Thunderbird is a different application from Firefox, and that in the same way you wouldn't expect a FF extension to work on TB, you should not expect it to work on Pale Moon unless it was built for Pale Moon. Not doing so is keeping the hope alive for someone to come along and do the transition work for them; that there is a transition to be done. Skirting the middle is only going to create animosity, not transition.
That's exactly what we're trying to do. We're suggesting they learn themselves to build Pale Moon extensions, because Pale Moon is a different application and needs new extensions. People have largely been keeping alive the idea that it's the same application unofficially against our wishes for years, and the extension compatibility was a large part of the basis of that assumption. That is actually one of the reasons it's being dropped... it keeps generating animosity and an expectation of the transition work being done for them every single time there's a breaking change.

The fact that even you weren't aware that it was already supposed to be an unequivocally different application from Firefox shows just how widespread and deeply rooted this misconception is, and how hard it has been to get people to think otherwise. Too many people think of Pale Moon as just "new old Firefox," and don't want to let it be anything else, no matter how many times we try to correct that perception.
"The rising sun will eventually set / A newborn's life will fade. / From sun to moon, moon to sun... / Give peaceful rest to the living dead." — The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time

Image

User avatar
New Tobin Paradigm
Knows the dark side
Knows the dark side
Posts: 10455
Joined: 2012-10-09, 19:37
Location: The Seriphia Galaxy

Re: Automatic Pale Moon Add-on Conversion

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-07-23, 21:52

RealityRipple.. Since Pale Moon 25 .. I have said something that has caught on by past and present members and contributors:

Pale Moon is not Firefox and never will be again.

That aside from post after post after post after thread after thread after faq after faq after warning after warning for YEARS.. Is proof you are trying to make some case that has no basis in reality. The one who needs to stop is you. Go ripple someone elses insecure grasp on reality because you shall not shake ours. Public Record is totally against you on this matter. Persisting serves no purpose except to further this conflict.

As this discussion is coming to an end does anyone have any final questions or thoughts?
Conversion Software Version 7.0
Image

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 30811
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Tranås, SE
Contact:

Re: Automatic Pale Moon Add-on Conversion

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-07-23, 22:45

New Tobin Paradigm wrote:
2021-07-23, 21:52
any final questions or thoughts?
The thing is, those users who don't want to learn, don't want to spend effort (or money by paying someone else) on extension maintenance while still using them, and generally feel entitled to getting "unchanged Firefox forever with perfect web compatibility" simply have to be told it's not possible. But to them, forcing the issue with an XPI hack gives them the illusion that they get what they want without effort, just feeding into their already existing sense of entitlement because "it worked before, why can't I have it now?"

If people ask for too many extensions from anyone who is currently forking them, tell them "no" and "but you could do it yourself" and provide information to motivate people to become responsible for the very extensions they use. People will resist it. Fervently, too. Some will leave as a result and that is fine, but the percentage that does respond is going to genuinely care for the extensions because they will be dogfooding them, in the spirit of the original authors of Firefox extensions who were in the exact same boat.

We've tried having that "first step" of "giving people room to fork for Pale Moon" available for the past 5 years and people would simply not take it. Period. Complacency galore. "Just keep the old shit working and call it a day"... No, that isn't a sound strategy and we've been trying to be forgiving for way too long. This was a tipping point to get people moving, and it's simply not possible if we are countered in our carefully planned strategy yet again by more hackery. It has to stop.
The "rippling reality" of the matter is that It's simply not possible to retain thousands of extensions that were abandoned by their authors. Users will have to pick them up or do without. There won't be progress without some form of sacrifice in this case. Some people will lose some of what they had and that is inevitable.

Keep in mind that Pale Moon is 100% usable with just the core, no extensions. If people want it to act work or look different, they have the freedom to make that change. If they want to rely on certain extensions for it then that is fine, but if that extension has no maintainer, then either THEY have to maintain it, or someone else who wants the same functionality has to, or they have to do without.
"Son, in life you do not fight battles because you expect to win, you fight them merely because they need to be fought." -- Snagglepuss
"It kind of sucks when you realize that being human is a scarce commodity." -- Bob Bilheimer
Image

Goodydino
Astronaut
Astronaut
Posts: 663
Joined: 2017-10-10, 21:20

Re: Automatic Pale Moon Add-on Conversion

Unread post by Goodydino » 2021-07-24, 19:14

In addition to replacing the ID number of the target application, you also would have to change the max and min version numbers. The change would be useless otherwise.

User avatar
mintoyatsu
Hobby Astronomer
Hobby Astronomer
Posts: 16
Joined: 2019-03-02, 08:44
Contact:

Re: Automatic Pale Moon Add-on Conversion

Unread post by mintoyatsu » 2021-07-25, 00:31

Instead of using this tool you should become an extension developer. Even someone like myself who isn't very experienced in JavaScript/XUL can fork, modify, test and maintain a proper Pale Moon extension (IF the license allows for it), and get it listed on the Pale Moon Add-Ons Site. It is actually a very smooth process.

User avatar
Baloo
Forum staff
Forum staff
Posts: 119
Joined: 2017-08-24, 15:02

Re: Automatic Pale Moon Add-on Conversion

Unread post by Baloo » 2021-07-25, 00:56

RealityRipple wrote:
2021-07-23, 20:34
I think you're asking too much of a userbase that essentially developed because it was resistant to change to begin with.

You're trying to make Pale Moon the center of the Pale Moon ecosystem, as it should be. But, as I've seen it, the center of this one was always Firefox extensions. I'm not sure it'll survive the transition.
Pale Moon is the only browser with a sane UI and isn't funded by Google. As far as I'm concerned, that is the core product, not some Firefox extensions from ten years ago. The fact that some of the userbase came here because of previous FF extensions that have not been updated doesn't mean they're the core product. How can a core product be something that's no longer sold or offered to consumers?
Image
Image

User avatar
New Tobin Paradigm
Knows the dark side
Knows the dark side
Posts: 10455
Joined: 2012-10-09, 19:37
Location: The Seriphia Galaxy

Re: Automatic Pale Moon Add-on Conversion

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-07-25, 00:58

Baloo wrote:
2021-07-25, 00:56
Pale Moon is the only browser with a sane UI and isn't funded by Google.
I know of another.. Not quite released yet but it does exist :thumbup:
Conversion Software Version 7.0
Image

User avatar
moonbat
Knows the dark side
Knows the dark side
Posts: 3394
Joined: 2015-12-09, 15:45
Contact:

Re: Automatic Pale Moon Add-on Conversion

Unread post by moonbat » 2021-07-25, 09:30

Woah. Late to the conversation so there isn't much I can add that hasn't' been said before, but the discussion of users is what I'd like to talk about. RealityRipple, there are either power users ('agents of our own salvation' as Tobin says) or what I rightfully and contemptuously call sheeple - the majority who can't be bothered to lift a little finger to fix their computer problems and are far better suited to living life on cruise control on Chrome. A generation ago, they were the sort who stuck with IE and got what they deserved as a result. This is the group that behaves utterly entitled and petulant, and who see Pale Moon as nothing more than a zombie Firefox to hang their extensions on.

So why on earth would you want to cater to this lot in particular when you're doing an awesome job as an extension developer already, i.e. why are you treading the path of JustOff 2.0? They have every other browser in existence to cater to their needs. Power users are a shrinking and aging minority (going forward we will be a total inversion of the past when older people tended to be more clueless about computers than younger ones).

I have immense respect for you as a developer, and for your generally keeping a cool head and never losing your temper even when riled. Your MDN archive is invaluable now that Mozilla have nuked it, and it helped me a lot in developing my own extensions. It is indeed disappointing to see you doing this when you're fully aware of the history of the browser community here.

Please don't do this, I would hate to see you leave over a disagreement.
"One hosts to look them up, one DNS to find them and in the darkness BIND them."

Image
Linux Mint 20.1 Xfce x64 on HP i5-5200 laptop, 12 GB RAM.
AutoPageColor|PermissionsPlus|PMPlayer|Pure URL|RecordRewind|TextFX

User avatar
New Tobin Paradigm
Knows the dark side
Knows the dark side
Posts: 10455
Joined: 2012-10-09, 19:37
Location: The Seriphia Galaxy

Re: Automatic Pale Moon Add-on Conversion

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-07-25, 16:28

I'd like to expand on what Moonbat said by pointing out how wrong it is to hold users with such contempt to just give up on ever trying to elevate them beyond their current technical skill. To assume a user is incapable of learning basic to intermediate skills is a great disservice to the potental of every individual and only serves to dehumanize them.

Now some may claim I do that because of the way I try to guide and even provoke higher thinking and ability out of some. That is of course highly debatable because there are successes. Like Moonbat up there and of course any BinOC Personnel. Still it isn't fool proof and my standards aren't always compatible with some people but that or some other technique can work.

Regardless, I still try and give them a chance. What you, RealityRipple, suggest is to instantly and as the only option is to assume and impose moron status on every user as the default position. To deem them incapable of anything and dehuminize them as a matter of course regardless of any expressed facts or signs of ability then dictate to them what they are only allowed to do like take this gun and put it to their foot and fire then see how many are lemping along waiting or the next order to cut off their fingers like good little drones.

I held this position once and that kind of made me a bad person and of course we know how some feel about being rightly called a fuckin moron after being properly informed and still choose to lop off a digit.. How will everyone feel when that is the default: "You're too stupid to even get an explaination now stab yourself in the eye. Why? Because."

No sir, I want people to be elevated, to be more than they are.. to learn and help their fellows. Will some never do this? Sure but that is their choice and they made it while fully informed. But on the other hand there are some who will even despite my brand of harsh motivation accomplish awsome things. They are superstars but the not-so-secret is that anyone can be as well. Like moonbat, vanilla, FranklinDM, Ryan.. and the rest including myself.
Conversion Software Version 7.0
Image

User avatar
moonbat
Knows the dark side
Knows the dark side
Posts: 3394
Joined: 2015-12-09, 15:45
Contact:

Re: Automatic Pale Moon Add-on Conversion

Unread post by moonbat » 2021-07-26, 07:33

What I was getting at is akin to the mistake Mozilla made from Firefox 4 onwards. That they somehow have to take away marketshare from Chrome while still sucking on Google's teat financially, and the way to do that is to embrace the clueless userbase that Google was going for. You can see how well that worked out for them, and one must not make the same mistake here. Firefox became popular organically because of power users evangelizing it among their friends and family, better to let Pale Moon follow the same path by catering to power users first.
How do you do that? By not infantilizing them, treating them as individuals with agency and responsibility to not screw up their installations without following instructions as noobs are wont to do. Let those who want to take the effort to learn how to fix extensions themselves and hopefully fork and contribute instead of serving it up for them on a platter, and thereby consigning PM to remain zombie Firefox forever.
"One hosts to look them up, one DNS to find them and in the darkness BIND them."

Image
Linux Mint 20.1 Xfce x64 on HP i5-5200 laptop, 12 GB RAM.
AutoPageColor|PermissionsPlus|PMPlayer|Pure URL|RecordRewind|TextFX

Post Reply