[Release] Various theme ports/forks

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Re: [Release] Various theme ports/forks

Postby Nintendo Maniac 64 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:37 pm

Lootyhoof wrote:
Nintendo Maniac 64 wrote:...yeah I'm not really much of a believer in "OS integration" since most people don't choose a specific OS due to its GUI aesthetic

You would be surprised how many people would argue against that. ;).


Maybe I should have said "most people don't choose a specific OS primarily due to its GUI aesthetic", and I'd like to put emphasis on the fact that I do in fact mean "aesthetic" and not "how the GUI is arranged".

An example would be the people that stayed with Windows 7 over Windows 8 - they did that not because of Windows 7's aesthetic, but rather because of "how the GUI is arranged".

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Re: [Release] Various theme ports/forks

Postby jez9999 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:55 am

Loftyhoof:
What happened with Moonfox3? The hover icons now have a washed-out look, eg.:

Before:
before.png
before.png (7.35 KiB) Viewed 560 times

Now:
now.png
now.png (7.57 KiB) Viewed 560 times


There's even a washed-out hover icon for my Zing! Locale Switcher button, for some reason. I don't mind necessary underlying structural changes to themes but changing the look and feel like this is totally unnecessary and I think it should be restored to how it was before.

You also seem to have removed the "List all tabs" icon. Could you please restore it?

I have to say the lack of quality control for this release (2.0.0) is really disappointing. Maybe you should get some people to test new releases before making them public.

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Re: [Release] Various theme ports/forks

Postby Lootyhoof » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:57 pm

jez9999 wrote:What happened with Moonfox3? The hover icons now have a washed-out look, eg.:

There's even a washed-out hover icon for my Zing! Locale Switcher button, for some reason. I don't mind necessary underlying structural changes to themes but changing the look and feel like this is totally unnecessary and I think it should be restored to how it was before.

You also seem to have removed the "List all tabs" icon. Could you please restore it?

I have to say the lack of quality control for this release (2.0.0) is really disappointing. Maybe you should get some people to test new releases before making them public.

Thanks for the report. I've fixed this in the source on GitHub and will push a release soon.

I normally don't do betas and test releases (typically because there simply isn't the turnout; I rarely get bug reports for release versions, even), however in this case I'll leave one below. :) Let me know how it is - If all's good I'll push the same to Aeromoon, too.
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Re: [Release] Various theme ports/forks

Postby jez9999 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:18 am

Loftyhoof:

3 things:

there *isn't* a dropdown button to the right of the back/forward buttons that was there before, the tabs look slightly different (more shadow at the top) which looks worse, and when the window is maximized in Windows, for some reason the bevel at the bottom of the window is a bit thicker than before, which looks worse.

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Re: [Release] Various theme ports/forks

Postby jez9999 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:37 am

Loftyhoof:

Also just looking at your code, I don't really like this kind of approach:

Code: Select all

.toolbarbutton-1:not([disabled="true"]):not([badge]):hover:active .toolbarbutton-icon {
  filter: brightness(95%);
}


You're using pure CSS to modify the icons on hover. While this may simplify things, it gets rid of the fundamental principle that an extension developer can change their icon on mouseover to whatever they want. Your CSS should not be touching the icons of any buttons that are not built in to the theme.

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Re: [Release] Various theme ports/forks

Postby Lootyhoof » Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:04 pm

Thanks for the feedback. I do appreciate the constructive criticism - I certainly don't get enough of it generally. I've attached another beta below - please check it out.

jez9999 wrote:You're using pure CSS to modify the icons on hover. While this may simplify things, it gets rid of the fundamental principle that an extension developer can change their icon on mouseover to whatever they want. Your CSS should not be touching the icons of any buttons that are not built in to the theme.

Admittedly I was a bit too presumptuous with this one, as I was hoping to style buttons not native to the theme in the same way as native buttons. I'm still keeping this use of CSS filters though, but only applying it to the native buttons, as I don't feel there's a need to have separate images for each button state when the same thing can be applied using filters now. Back in the Firefox 3 days, sure, but not now.

As for your other concerns:

jez9999 wrote:there *isn't* a dropdown button to the right of the back/forward buttons that was there before

Can't confirm..?

Image

jez9999 wrote:the tabs look slightly different (more shadow at the top) which looks worse

They look the same as Firefox 3's tabs, unless you can point out anything to the contrary.

Image

jez9999 wrote:when the window is maximized in Windows, for some reason the bevel at the bottom of the window is a bit thicker than before

Where..? The below are from Windows 10, but I also checked on Windows 7 too and saw no issues like this.

Image
Image
Image

With regards to other things fixed in this version:
Nintendo Maniac 64 wrote:...yeah I'm not really much of a believer in "OS integration" since most people don't choose a specific OS due to its GUI aesthetic, and I'd much rather have a program have the same UI regardless of platform for familiarity sake (VLC is a good example of this).

Then again, I'm the same person that has been using the Windows "high contrast black" theme for possibly over a decade now and have even used it across Windows versions (at least XP and 7), so I'm used to having programs not match my OS theme.

(there's also the fact that I do a lot with emulation, so I'm extremely used to running software that was originally designed for a completely different hardware platform let alone a different OS)

Please give the beta I've attached a go - I've had a thought about this and come to a compromise with this. I've changed the appmenu again, more like the original, but not exactly. It feels a lot better (in my opinion) - though please let me know if it's not what you were thinking.

"Normal" mode (not maximised):
Image

Maximised mode:
Image
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Re: [Release] Various theme ports/forks

Postby jez9999 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:18 pm

Lootyhoof wrote:
jez9999 wrote:there *isn't* a dropdown button to the right of the back/forward buttons that was there before

Can't confirm..?

Image

Try it in "icons and text" mode.

jez9999 wrote:the tabs look slightly different (more shadow at the top) which looks worse

They look the same as Firefox 3's tabs, unless you can point out anything to the contrary.

jez9999 wrote:when the window is maximized in Windows, for some reason the bevel at the bottom of the window is a bit thicker than before

Where..? The below are from Windows 10, but I also checked on Windows 7 too and saw no issues like this.

See the below screenshots for examples:

Before:
a.png


Now:
b.png

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Re: [Release] Various theme ports/forks

Postby Lootyhoof » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:02 pm

Thanks. Try this one now?
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Re: [Release] Various theme ports/forks

Postby jez9999 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:16 pm

They seem to be fixed in that one, yeah. Is there any change on icon on mouseover now though? I think the icons got slightly darker on mouseover on Fx3.

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Re: [Release] Various theme ports/forks

Postby Lootyhoof » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:29 pm

It gets slightly darker when you click the icons, for native buttons only (no extensions).

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Re: [Release] Various theme ports/forks

Postby jez9999 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:18 pm

Lootyhoof wrote:It gets slightly darker when you click the icons, for native buttons only (no extensions).

It doesn't seem to get at all darker on mouseover for those buttons in your theme now, though. Not visibly to the naked eye anyway.

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Re: [Release] Various theme ports/forks

Postby Lootyhoof » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:50 pm

I've tweaked the button states more now. I had a look at Firefox 3, and yes, these do work on hover rather than click, which I've now accounted for.

Try this one?
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Re: [Release] Various theme ports/forks

Postby jez9999 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:21 pm

Seems to be correct now but I still don't see why you couldn't just keep the previous theme which I created and I made sure I got everything right.

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Re: [Release] Various theme ports/forks

Postby Nintendo Maniac 64 » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:35 am

Lootyhoof wrote:I've tweaked the button states more now. I had a look at Firefox 3, and yes, these do work on hover rather than click, which I've now accounted for.

Try this one?

Better, but as the primary user of the PC that Moonfox3 was being used on is a 63 year old man that has trouble learning and remembering new GUI concepts and in general prefers text buttons to icon-only buttons (he's been quite vocal about that when it comes to center consoles in cars), I try to keep all things UI-related as familiar as possible (it's a big reason why Pale Moon and Moonfox3 are being used in the first place, and why the PC in question runs Linux Mint with XP-styled window border theme).

This is also why I would prefer to just stick with v1.6.0 rather than making the previously-mentioned modification - there's less for me to manage and keep track of (which is ideal when I'm not the PC's primary user).

If it was just myself that was using this theme, then everything would be fine...but in that case I would probably be using something like the "Dark Moon" theme anyway.

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Re: [Release] Various theme ports/forks

Postby jez9999 » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:43 am

Nintendo Maniac 64 wrote:
Lootyhoof wrote:I've tweaked the button states more now. I had a look at Firefox 3, and yes, these do work on hover rather than click, which I've now accounted for.

Try this one?

Better, but as the primary user of the PC that Moonfox3 was being used on is a 63 year old man that has trouble learning and remembering new GUI concepts and in general prefers text buttons to icon-only buttons (he's been quite vocal about that when it comes to center consoles in cars), I try to keep all things UI-related as familiar as possible (it's a big reason why Pale Moon and Moonfox3 are being used in the first place, and why the PC in question runs Linux Mint with XP-styled window border theme).

This is also why I would prefer to just stick with v1.6.0 rather than making the previously-mentioned modification - there's less for me to manage and keep track of (which is ideal when I'm not the PC's primary user).

If it was just myself that was using this theme, then everything would be fine...but in that case I would probably be using something like the "Dark Moon" theme anyway.

Yeah. This is exactly why I was porting this theme over to PM myself, because I just knew if I left it to someone else they wouldn't be able to resist screwing around with it for no good reason. I guess I'll just keep using 1.6.0 but it's a shame I didn't finish the port and I don't have the time now. Why can't people just follow the old adage "if it aint broke, don't fix it"?

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Re: [Release] Various theme ports/forks

Postby Lootyhoof » Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:34 pm

Nintendo Maniac 64 wrote:Better, but as the primary user of the PC that Moonfox3 was being used on is a 63 year old man that has trouble learning and remembering new GUI concepts and in general prefers text buttons to icon-only buttons (he's been quite vocal about that when it comes to center consoles in cars), I try to keep all things UI-related as familiar as possible (it's a big reason why Pale Moon and Moonfox3 are being used in the first place, and why the PC in question runs Linux Mint with XP-styled window border theme).

This is also why I would prefer to just stick with v1.6.0 rather than making the previously-mentioned modification - there's less for me to manage and keep track of (which is ideal when I'm not the PC's primary user).

If it was just myself that was using this theme, then everything would be fine...but in that case I would probably be using something like the "Dark Moon" theme anyway.

It's possible to do this with a very small userChrome.css tweak:

Code: Select all

#appmenu-toolbar-button .toolbarbutton-text {
  display: -moz-box !important;
}

#main-window:not([privatebrowsingmode=temporary]) #appmenu-toolbar-button {
  list-style-image: none !important;
}


Image

As for why this isn't the default? I had a few discussions prior to implementing this with others (including Moonchild himself), mainly on our IRC channel, where we identified the key factors that people want with a button like this:

1. The button must be uniquely recognisable (i.e. keep it blue; separately-styled to the rest of the buttons in the interface)
2. The button must represent the application (i.e. feature a Pale Moon logo, or whichever icon the application has been built with)
3. The button must indicate it is a menu (i.e. have a dropmarker)
4. The button must be compact (to not waste valuable screen real estate on the tab bar)

This satisfies those points, and the responses I received for this were positive. I can't please everyone, you know; the reason that userChrome.css exists at all is so that the user interface can be tweaked in a way that works best for YOU. If that's an unreasonable thing to suggest, then by all means use an older version, but all things considered this design is here to stay.

jez9999 wrote:Yeah. This is exactly why I was porting this theme over to PM myself, because I just knew if I left it to someone else they wouldn't be able to resist screwing around with it for no good reason. I guess I'll just keep using 1.6.0 but it's a shame I didn't finish the port and I don't have the time now. Why can't people just follow the old adage "if it aint broke, don't fix it"?

I do the best that I can for my themes given time and resource constraints in my own personal life. If there are any issues I generally fix them within a reasonable timeframe.

If you'd prefer to do things differently, I'd welcome a fork.

With that said, if you have an actual bug with the theme to report rather than my methodology, I'd be happy to hear it. Otherwise I don't have anything further to discuss with you.

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Re: [Release] Various theme ports/forks

Postby Moonchild » Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:57 pm

@jez: If you don't like the direction the theme is taken in, then you should have continued maintaining it yourself. Please don't make trouble with your negativity for the sake of it. If you don't agree with it, then, as Lootyhoof said: make a fork.

@Nintendo Maniac 64: I hate to say it but we can't make a general theme cater to the specific needs of a 63-year-old user who is apparently unable to absorb even a single bit of new information. So.. if it's needed and you want a theme to be uniquely suited to an individual, then you too can fork it, but in this case I think just keeping a userChrome.css on that particular installation will be a lot more economical, because either way, that particular maintenance burden will land on your shoulders, nobody else's.
Improving Mozilla code: You know you're on the right track with code changes when you spend the majority of your time deleting code.

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Re: [Release] Various theme ports/forks

Postby Nintendo Maniac 64 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:09 am

Full disclosure - my previous reply was delayed because I expected the changes in v2.0.0 to remain "as is" and unsubscribed from this thread since I thought things wouldn't change.

So with regards to my previous reply, I certainly do not expect you to change things simply due to my situation, I was just simply stating the reasons why I prefer to stick with v1.6.0.

As for the userChrome.css option, is it not more likely for Moonfox3 v1.6.0 to work in a far future version of Pale Moon than for the Moonfox3 userChrome.css to work on a far future version of Moonfox3? I mean, my sister is still using a 6-year-old Firefox theme (AvantGarde) in Pale Moon 27.

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Re: [Release] Various theme ports/forks

Postby Lootyhoof » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:24 am

The userChrome.css is very simple and unlikely to break.

Moonfox3 however changes based on changes in Pale Moon. Even now, there are breaks which are to be fixed in the next version (for example, the status bar code to allow for a custom progress meter in the status bar options window).

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Re: [Release] Various theme ports/forks

Postby Nintendo Maniac 64 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:07 am

Lootyhoof wrote:The userChrome.css is very simple and unlikely to break.


I'll hold you to that. :P


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