Suggestion: Better Promote Add-Ons on the Add-Ons Site

Anything to do with the Pale Moon add-ons website. (addons.palemoon.org)
Not for questions about add-ons themselves!
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CharmCityCrab

Suggestion: Better Promote Add-Ons on the Add-Ons Site

Unread post by CharmCityCrab » 2015-09-12, 23:23

When I go to the Mozilla add-ons page, I get this:

https://addons.mozilla.org/

As you can see, there are three add-ons recommended for first time add-on users highlighted, featured extensions, up and coming extensions, popular add-ons, etc.. You dive right in and one click takes you to the page for a specific add-on. There must be dozens of add-ons I can get to with one click from that page, some complete with descriptions about why I might want to use them on the page itself.

When I go to the Pale Moon add-ons page, I get this:

https://addons.palemoon.org/

There is not one extension linked to directly from that page.

These are the two pages you have to choose from when you navigate through the Pale Moon browser to Tools>Add-ons>Get add-ons

So, my suggestion is: Highlight Pale Moon add-ons on the https://addons.palemoon.org/ page the way Firefox add-ons are highlighted on the
https://addons.mozilla.org/ page.

I kind of get the feeling the Pale Moon add-ons page was designed thinking, "Well, we don't have many Pale Moon specific add-ons, so most people are going to go to the Mozilla page and get Firefox add-ons that maintain Pale Moon compatibility.". But we know that Firefox and Pale Moon are drifting further and further away from each other, with fewer and fewer cross compatible add-ons, and that the roadmap for Firefox means that there will be even fewer in the future.

Meanwhile, I assume one of the top goals of the Pale Moon project is to get many add-ons ported to or created for Pale Moon and hosted by the Pale Moon add-on site. And we are seeing more and more Pale Moon specific add-ons and people expressing interest in having them or making them as the number of Firefox add-ons compatible with Pale Moon dwindles.

*So*, to me in makes sense to drive traffic from the Pale Moon add-on site directly to, well, add-ons. Put some of the best ones there with logos and descriptions and stuff. Make it easy for people to find them and add them. Highlight what's there (Even if we have some super low level like 3, put all three up there). Maybe toss a simple link entitled "For developers: How to get your add-on approved and hosted by Pale Moon's add-on site" or "For coders: How to design and submit a Pale Moon add-on" at the bottom.

The front page of the current Pale Moon add-on site seems well intentioned, but a lot of casual users are going to see that and not immediately know where to find the Pale Moon add-ons. And, one secret of the casual Internet users is- they give up very easily. You want to put stuff right in front of people and make it as easy and simple as possible. Maybe even tempt them to download some extra ones they didn't know existed.

And if you want developers of extensions to come here and port their add-ons to Pale Moon, you don't want to make them find someone's email address or register for a support forum and start threads asking "How do I do this?" (Though I'm glad PM devs make themselves available that way). You want them to go to the add-on site, and just see a very clear link that tells them exactly what to do (guidelines, etc.) and how and where to submit it to. So, in theory, you could get an extension submission from someone you've never talked to before who just saw the site and followed the guidelines and sent it to you.

Basically, you want to make everything as easy as possible.

Right now, even going from within the Pale Moon browser, it is actually easier and more intuitive to find a Firefox add-on than a Pale Moon add-on. Should be the other way around, especially since some users will wind up clicking through the Mozilla site, see that a lot of the add-ons don't work with Pale Moon, and download Firefox to use them. We should be driving them to Pale Moon add-ons, add-ons that work with Pale Moon every time. And then saying, like if you can't find what you're looking for, rifle through the Mozilla site. And I think the time to start that is now, before the divergence between the browsers gets far enough to force a change later. Right now, it could be a subtle nudge, and ease the transition later. It'd also bring Pale Moon browser add-on user numbers up, which would encourage existing developers to keep developing, and start to demonstrate an audience to potential future developers who, say, want to port their old Firefox add-on and host it here while they are still developing an add-on for a somewhat similar code base and it'd be an easy port (In the future, they may be so far past developing for a code base similar to Pale Moon that it's a harder port than they want to deal with, or they may have given up maintaining their extension for Firefox and not be reachable or may not want to get back into the game- right now we still have time to get them when they are actively developing for Firefox and can port with less trouble. Maybe then even if they don't redesign their extension for Firefox later when Firefox demands it again, they keep developing for Pale Moon).

Anyway, it's just a suggestion. I won't be offended if people don't think it's the right way to go. :) I'm just throwing it out there because I think it'd pave the way for more Pale Moon users using Pale Moon add-ons, more developers creating and hosting add-ons specifically for Pale Moon, and ease the transition when Mozilla pulls the rug out of their add-ons working with Pale Moon entirely (Which, let's face it, is coming- maybe not "intentionally" on their part, but we can see that they are deprecating the coding language that add-ons for Pale Moon and, until now, Firefox, have been written in- and even to this point changes in their browser mean that many of the Mozilla hosted add-ons don't work).

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Re: Suggestion: Better Promote Add-Ons on the Add-Ons Site

Unread post by LimboSlam » 2015-09-13, 05:08

I agree with you! Just right now, somebody named "wost_" has uploaded an add-on of his own creation (I think it's his own) called "Color My Tabs" to this forum, and if the info was there in plain site, he would know how to get it officially hosted on our add-on site. Of course there would be a bit of a wait I imagine because he would have to coordinate with Matt A Tobin about this.

Another thing that should be first instead of second is a direct link to APO (the add-ons and themes). Though, what is said on the first page is pretty important too, so I guess is all about leveling the info out.
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Re: Suggestion: Better Promote Add-Ons on the Add-Ons Site

Unread post by Moonchild » 2015-09-13, 10:21

Thanks for the suggestion.
The current situation is, however, that we don't yet have a fully-working and self-supporting add-ons site (we're working on that). Once we can self-host everything, we can do this, but until then, people need to have the option to choose which add-ons site they want to go to, and I also don't think there's an easy way as of now to pull certain extensions to the front page as a mention (e.g new ones or top picks).

Tobin should be able to provide more feedback here, as I made him pretty much responsible for everything add-ons site.

(Tobin, if you need help, feel free to ask people! This doesn't have to be "all you".)
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squarefractal

Re: Suggestion: Better Promote Add-Ons on the Add-Ons Site

Unread post by squarefractal » 2015-09-13, 11:05

One additional problem here for contributors is that phoebus is not fully open source neither a independent component, making pretty much only those having server access being able to make modifications to it :/

Supernova

Re: Suggestion: Better Promote Add-Ons on the Add-Ons Site

Unread post by Supernova » 2015-09-14, 12:26

Localization needs will also arise for the addons site. Though that's not current priority - which is designing the second generation website -, it should be in the TODO.

New Tobin Paradigm

Re: Suggestion: Better Promote Add-Ons on the Add-Ons Site

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2015-09-14, 15:19

squarefractal wrote:One additional problem here for contributors is that phoebus is not fully open source neither a independent component, making pretty much only those having server access being able to make modifications to it :/
Substantiate that claim.

Right now the phoebus repo does not have a declaration of a license.. since it only stores media, CMSMS copypasta files, and our Automatic Update Service (AUS) scripting to allow updates for add-ons..

However, consider the smarty scripting used in CMSMS and the AUS scripting as MPL 2.0 however anything else is .. not such as logos or the site design.. This will be clarified fully and completely later because meticulously writing out license terms is more important to squarefractal then getting work done..

As for the current CMSMS implementation of the website.. and it's admin functions.. what does that have to do with open source.. Are you seriously contending something isn't open source because you don't have administrative access, access to the full sever and datastore, or direct push access to a repo?
Supernova wrote:Localization needs will also arise for the addons site. Though that's not current priority - which is designing the second generation website -, it should be in the TODO.
Localization is NOT a priority or even on the TODO list. Pale Moon is primarily an en-US product as so are the sites.

Now..
CharmCityCrab wrote:A huge post
As far as your concerns of promoting extensions on the front page of the site.. While it is true that it would be very difficult to setup in this current implementation.. I am hesitant to do the whole "Highest rated" or "Recommended" thing because it promotes favoritism.

Also, you must understand that unlike the MozCo Add-ons Site.. I am not gonna allow.. ever.. extensions to be installed anywhere but from the extension's own specific page.. There will be no install from front page or install from a search or category listing.. The reason behind this is that users should be made to read about an extension before they install it.. Know what it is and what it does.

If there is ever a recommended or top picks THING it will simply be links to the individual extension's page so that the user has the chance to be fully informed of what it is they are installing. Too frequently users will blindly install stuff they don't want or need or that radically change their browser and then come to us saying X doesn't work right and what not.. Making them easy to find is one thing and this situation SHOULD get better in time.. but don't expect a bunch of green "Add to Pale Moon" buttons everywhere you look..

"Make everything as easy as possible" is a dangerous trap.. While I am not intending to make things difficult by any means and there are other areas that do need improvement.. I cannot justify removing the user's need to be responsible and read as well as make an informed decision if what they are about to install is truly what they want to do.

AS FOR the Discover Pane which is the page that gets loaded in the add-ons manager and search from the add-ons manager.. ATM There isn't a facility to provide search results in the add-ons manager for Pale Moon Add-ons.. so it searches only AMO but this will change in the future.. And as for the discover page.. There are plans for that as well but figuring out what SHOULD be there and how to serve that content is still in the works.

If you have anymore questions please feel free to pose them.

As for squarefractal.. see me in IRC

jumba

Re: Suggestion: Better Promote Add-Ons on the Add-Ons Site

Unread post by jumba » 2015-09-14, 17:03

Matt A Tobin wrote: Localization is NOT a priority or even on the TODO list. Pale Moon is primarily an en-US product as so are the sites.
If Pale Moon is primarily an en-US and still offers localization support couldn't the sites offer it too? What about using some CMS that supports localization?

CharmCityCrab

Re: Suggestion: Better Promote Add-Ons on the Add-Ons Site

Unread post by CharmCityCrab » 2015-09-14, 17:57

Matt A Tobin wrote:
As far as your concerns of promoting extensions on the front page of the site.. While it is true that it would be very difficult to setup in this current implementation.. I am hesitant to do the whole "Highest rated" or "Recommended" thing because it promotes favoritism.
What about just a list of "Most downloaded of all-time" and/or "Most downloaded in the last month"? That way, it'd be democratized based on what people are using and there would not be the appearance of favoritism. A "Recently added add-ons" slice might also qualify as a way to put extensions "upfront" without actually recommending anything or promoting favoritism. There could even be a randomizer that just puts five random add-ons up there every time one reloads the page.
Also, you must understand that unlike the MozCo Add-ons Site.. I am not gonna allow.. ever.. extensions to be installed anywhere but from the extension's own specific page.. There will be no install from front page or install from a search or category listing.. The reason behind this is that users should be made to read about an extension before they install it.. Know what it is and what it does.

If there is ever a recommended or top picks THING it will simply be links to the individual extension's page so that the user has the chance to be fully informed of what it is they are installing.
Sounds reasonable to me. I think I agree with your stance on the matter- add-ons should only be installable from the page that describes them fully. As you mentioned, though, that would not rule out links to the extension pages, perhaps with a logo and a shortened summary, from an extensions home page in the future.

Anyway, it's just food for thought.

I am not necessarily strongly pushing for Pale Moon to go in that direction. I just wanted to offer some observations that people can consider and then take or leave as they further develop the project.
Last edited by CharmCityCrab on 2015-09-14, 18:46, edited 1 time in total.

squarefractal

Re: Suggestion: Better Promote Add-Ons on the Add-Ons Site

Unread post by squarefractal » 2015-09-14, 18:22

Matt A Tobin wrote:Substantiate that claim.
Two claims are being made there:
  • Not an independent component
    The phoebus repo contains a set of files that are not of any use by themselves. Only the people involved with the Pale Moon Addons Team know how these files integrate into the whole system and manage to run the APMO website. A potential contributor, who may want a certain feature to be implemented, can never help with it because how the entire system works is not known. (Well, a certain set of features could certainly be implemented, however, the one with which this thread is concerned could never be implemented, since it would require some integration with CMSMS.) The phoebus repo is therefore not independent (well, perhaps it is a poor word choice) in that a contributor could never even set up it for testing a certain feature to be implemented.

    However, I assume that the second generation of the site will be "independent" in this regard, so this issue could be looked into later. However, it is a problem with the current set of files and instructions provided under the name of phoebus.
  • Not open source
    Regardless of how useless or implicit you consider licensing issues to be, a person can consider it to be under the strictest terms in the absence of any statement. Any other assumption is landing oneself (IANAL, but probably along with you as well) into legal hot waters.
Matt A Tobin wrote:I am hesitant to do the whole "Highest rated" or "Recommended" thing because it promotes favoritism.
Since you did have plans to collect some rudimentary stats about extension usage, how about coupling this with a "Most popular extensions" section on the website which could be displayed on the homepage? There may be a need to build in some form of abuse protection, though ;)

Supernova

Re: Suggestion: Better Promote Add-Ons on the Add-Ons Site

Unread post by Supernova » 2015-09-15, 07:13

Matt A Tobin wrote:Localization is NOT a priority or even on the TODO list. Pale Moon is primarily an en-US product as so are the sites.
Most people don't read english, or barely. And this won't change anytime soon.
Matt A Tobin wrote:Also, you must understand that unlike the MozCo Add-ons Site.. I am not gonna allow.. ever.. extensions to be installed anywhere but from the extension's own specific page.. There will be no install from front page or install from a search or category listing.. The reason behind this is that users should be made to read about an extension before they install it.. Know what it is and what it does.
If website is full english and addons description are full english, be sure that there are users who won't be able to go there alone and understand "what it is and what it does" for a lot of extensions.

dark_moon

Re: Suggestion: Better Promote Add-Ons on the Add-Ons Site

Unread post by dark_moon » 2015-09-15, 07:19

I total agree with Supernova.
Why in hell did you think a translation is not needed, Tobin? Just because you can read english?

If the addon site is only in english, not many users visit it or install addons.
I don't know why you block a translation, even with the community help.

Pale Moon have translation too and oh, its a en-us product.

New Tobin Paradigm

Re: Suggestion: Better Promote Add-Ons on the Add-Ons Site

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2015-09-15, 14:47

@squarefractal..

(The original text in this section of this post is now obsolete)

See:
https://github.com/Pale-Moon-Addons-Team/phoebus/blob/default/README.md
https://github.com/Pale-Moon-Addons-Team/phoebus/commit/593e70275bca1acbdb56fcad82ed9ecd13362458
https://github.com/Pale-Moon-Addons-Team/phoebus/commit/43267202163a931df083d2c8d643ce1d8531b579
https://github.com/Pale-Moon-Addons-Team/phoebus/commit/f849100e06934e1c4804bcb3f1ab422364a052c9

@CharmCityCrab and @jumba

The work involved in making a website localizeable is staggering. There are much more important things to get done first. None of the other Pale Moon sites are in anything but en-US as well as the browser is primarily in en-US and the langpacks for the browser are a convenience nothing more and we have plenty of issues keeping those translations up to date..

How would you suggest we get a website into 90 some languages with it exponentially growing by every extension x90?

jumba

Re: Suggestion: Better Promote Add-Ons on the Add-Ons Site

Unread post by jumba » 2015-09-15, 17:44

Matt A Tobin wrote:How would you suggest we get a website into 90 some languages with it exponentially growing by every extension x90?
I already asked if there is some CMS that supports this, if the CMSMS doesn't, does it?
Matt A Tobin wrote:the langpacks for the browser are a convenience nothing more and we have plenty of issues keeping those translations up to date..
I see 10 complete language packs for Pale Moon. That is quite good for a browser that is primarily an en-US product.

New Tobin Paradigm

Re: Suggestion: Better Promote Add-Ons on the Add-Ons Site

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2015-09-15, 17:50

CMSMS does not.. ALSO CMSMS is on death row.. The moment it can be replaced it will be.. It served its purpose as a springboard to initially get content up but it wasn't designed for this kind of work.

Chances are we would solely have to rely on some form of user-side js transform to do translation on the fly.. but still that could present unpredictable translations.

dark_moon

Re: Suggestion: Better Promote Add-Ons on the Add-Ons Site

Unread post by dark_moon » 2015-09-15, 18:18

Then i would say the easist way is just to translate the addon site, without the addon description.
Even mozilla does that.

CharmCityCrab

Re: Suggestion: Better Promote Add-Ons on the Add-Ons Site

Unread post by CharmCityCrab » 2015-09-15, 22:13

Matt A Tobin wrote: @CharmCityCrab and @jumba

The work involved in making a website localizeable is staggering. There are much more important things to get done first. None of the other Pale Moon sites are in anything but en-US as well as the browser is primarily in en-US and the langpacks for the browser are a convenience nothing more and we have plenty of issues keeping those translations up to date..

How would you suggest we get a website into 90 some languages with it exponentially growing by every extension x90?
Hey, no big deal, but I just wanted to mention that I never mentioned anything about localization or providing translations for the add-on site. :) I have no opinion on that at this time. Wasn't one of my suggestions. :)

Obviously, in a world where Internet usage is a very global phenomena and China has twice the number of Internet users as the US, it'd be nice if, were there no technical or logistical barriers to implementing it and it wouldn't take manpower (or womanpower) away from other aspects of the Pale Moon ecosystem, Pale Moon were able to provide translated versions of their webpages. However, with a browser with a small user share that's owned and maintained by a limited number of volunteers as a non-profit entity, I can see why it's not a high priority. English is the most common "second language" in the world, so many people from non-English speaking countries can read it. Also, there are likely add-ons that translate pages for people. And, ultimately, if the developers don't know the languages involved, they can't translate the pages by hand anyway. :)

I personally, were I in charge, would push resources towards maintaining the browser code for Windows with updates and optimizations, getting an add-on site where add-ons are featured and maintained on the site, trying to get the Android version of Pale Moon restarted, and attracting developers for the Windows, Android, and Mac versions of Pale Moon and also more Pale Moon add-on developers.

Basically, this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhh_GeBPOhs

:)

If we reached the point where the Windows, Linux, Android, and Mac versions of Pale Moon were all being fully maintained and updated at the optimum level in the minds of the people in the project, and the add-on site had the general functionality of the Firefox one with a lot of active developers, then I would look at translation for the websites and such. But with limited manpower hours to go around and limited resources, I'd first go towards making sure the browser itself is working well and being actively developed on all four of the above platforms, and on making the add-on site more independent and able to survive as a source for more or less everything users will "need", as it sounds like Mozilla's add-on site is becoming less and less viable for Pale Moon users and will only continue that drift in the future.

Translation for the websites is kind of one of those things that is nice if it can be done, but I would think very low-priority relative to the browser itself and the add-ons to the browsers. I mean, Pale Moon for Android has had to be discontinued. Pale Moon for Mac is close to being discontinued. There aren't enough developers to go around and they are overworked, it sounds like. Gotta keep the core going- the browsers themselves and the add-ons. That's where I'd assign new developers first.

Now, of course, if a translator who can write HTML wants to specifically volunteer to translate, knows English and the language to be translated to well enough to do the translations well, and can keep up with maintaining the translations of the webpages really well, then I don't see why the project would turn down such an offer. But if offers like that aren't forthcoming, there are other priorities. At least, there would be for me.

Supernova

Re: Suggestion: Better Promote Add-Ons on the Add-Ons Site

Unread post by Supernova » 2015-09-16, 00:17

I would like to outline that the work needed on PM team side would be to provide a framework for translation and a validation.
The actual translation work would be done by forum volunteers.

I'm not here to say it's priority number 1, but to say it's less relevant than Pale Moon on Mac is grossely exagerated. Not that doing one would take manpower from the other, they are different tasks which don't compete with each other.

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Re: Suggestion: Better Promote Add-Ons on the Add-Ons Site

Unread post by Falna » 2015-09-16, 12:10

dark_moon wrote:Then i would say the easist way is just to translate the addon site, without the addon description.
Even mozilla does that.
I guess a related approach could be to set up a multi-language wiki, allowing user to add translations and link to the downloads on the existing addon site.

Forked extensions :
● Add-ons Inspector ● Auto Text Link ● Copy As Plain Text ● Copy Hyperlink Text ● FireFTP button replacement ● gSearch Bar ● Navigation Bar Enhancer ● New Tab Links ● Number Tabs ● Print Preview Button and Keyboard Shortcut 2 ● Scrollbar Search Marker ● Simple Marker ● Tabs To Portfolio ● Update Alert ● Web Developer's Toolbox ● Zap Anything

Hint: If you expect a reply to your PM, allow replies...

New Tobin Paradigm

Re: Suggestion: Better Promote Add-Ons on the Add-Ons Site

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2015-09-16, 13:21

L10n for a website is not a priority of any pressing concern for the short to mid term. A website that barely exists at the moment. There are far more important things to do and it will be revisited later. So for now l10n as a point of discussion is tabled.

A-any thing else you guys want?

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Re: Suggestion: Better Promote Add-Ons on the Add-Ons Site

Unread post by win7-7 » 2015-09-17, 07:28

Mainly I want second generation add-on website look more professional and have similar layout and functionality as AMO so it can be actually alternative to AMO.

http://dev.addons.palemoon.org/jetpack/ currently this website is more professional looking than actual add-on website.