reference the new Add-ons Topic is solved

Anything to do with the Pale Moon add-ons website.

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thosrtanner
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Re: reference the new Add-ons

Unread postby thosrtanner » Sat, 22 Sep 2018, 16:30

Moonchild wrote:
thosrtanner wrote:You have of course considered that by listing them alphabetically, you are giving prominence to those add-ons that start with A (such as ABprime, Adblock Latitude) over those that begin with U ... Z (Such as U-block origin updater). This is a form of favouritism, the more insidious because everyone does it and think's it isn't discriminatory.

So what do you think is fair then? randomize the list for every visit? Nobody would be able to find anything. :think:

Alphabetic sorting or ANY sorting will have a natural order to them, but that does not mean that what happens to be high on the list as a result is the result of favoritism other than the linguistic or mathematical one -- in which case you can blame language for predisposing certain titles, but not the presentation software. :problem: Let's not make it worse by introducing user- or developer-instigated favoritism. I'm very strongly opposed to this.

Any highlighting of new or updated extensions would favor developers who just churn out the fastest or the most. But that doesn't mean those extensions deserve any more attention than long-standing, stable ones. Quite the opposite, that alone already is setting up the extension site for severe bias based on something that isn't even related to the usability or quality of extensions.


As I said, give us (the users) the option of selecting a presentation order. Alpha, reverse alpha, latest update, etc.

In the interests of transparency, I wish to point out that with my name being towards the end of the alphabet, I have suffered from this cultural bias on occasion. Though not as much as those whose names begin with W.

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Re: reference the new Add-ons

Unread postby wavymoon » Sat, 22 Sep 2018, 16:46

I am guessing that a post in a locked sticky that announced a new to PM add-on would not be found acceptable. But I would throw that in the mix here. :D

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Re: reference the new Add-ons

Unread postby mrnhmath » Sat, 22 Sep 2018, 17:01

I was thinking of something like this:
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Re: reference the new Add-ons

Unread postby thosrtanner » Sat, 22 Sep 2018, 17:02

Well, I have a topic to which I post when I update inforss.

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Re: reference the new Add-ons

Unread postby New Tobin Paradigm » Sat, 22 Sep 2018, 17:29

Not going to happen. Also the All Extensions list is dead because it is too damned long as it is. It was only brought back because there was no proper search but that isn't true anymore.

http://addons-dev.palemoon.org/extensions/

Also, I am not taking suggestions for the Add-ons site features.. Y'all lost that privilege after that failed coup attempt in late 2016 early 2017 followed by how when I finally got you search abilities it wasn't good enough.

Tried to be nice, tried to be rational, but nope.. Just keep on pushing don't you all. So here we are again.

The answer is no so stop asking.
Last edited by New Tobin Paradigm on Sat, 22 Sep 2018, 17:41, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: reference the new Add-ons

Unread postby fillerup » Sat, 22 Sep 2018, 17:36

well, if the devs won't accommodate what is imo a rather simple and reasonable request, i think we should just create a thread dedicated to this subject, and if anyone finds a new addon release/update, they can post in that thread for other users to take notice

New Tobin Paradigm wrote:Y'all lost that privilege after that failed coup attempt in late 2016 early 2017.

y'all? been on this forum for some time and i have no clue what you're talking about. regardless, you seem to exhibit a mentality of yourself vs the world, while i believe most of us here would like nothing more than to work together and improve these browsers best as we can. not gonna deny that you do a lot more than the rest of us combined though :D
Last edited by fillerup on Sat, 22 Sep 2018, 17:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: reference the new Add-ons

Unread postby New Tobin Paradigm » Sat, 22 Sep 2018, 17:45

Guess I have to remove ALL the dates then.
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Re: reference the new Add-ons

Unread postby fillerup » Sat, 22 Sep 2018, 17:46

you see tobin, that's why people have a hard time getting along with you :thumbdown:

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Re: reference the new Add-ons

Unread postby New Tobin Paradigm » Sat, 22 Sep 2018, 17:55

Here is your reason I don't listen to you people anymore when it comes to the Add-ons Site...

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=14558
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=19079

No, I am not gonna remove the dates and NO I am not going to implement some damned filtering to search or page views because:

1) ALL THE REASONS STATED
2) Moonchild has rejected it

Now that that is cleared up.. I am going to request that I have all my posting ability to be restricted. So I can still use the forum's PM system but not post. Good job forum, you have done it again.
Last edited by New Tobin Paradigm on Sat, 22 Sep 2018, 18:02, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: reference the new Add-ons

Unread postby Moonchild » Sat, 22 Sep 2018, 18:24

  1. If you want to discover add-ons of a certain type, use the categories.
  2. If you know what you are looking for, use keywords or a name in search.
  3. If you don't know what you are lookign for and don't want to browse to discover, what the hell are you doing on the add-ons site? You clearly aren't hurting for (more) extensions.
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Re: reference the new Add-ons

Unread postby Isengrim » Sat, 22 Sep 2018, 18:30

Here's my two cents on the discoverability of add-ons.

Add-on developers should use the forum to announce releases or updates, and that is where users should look for them. To me, that is the simplest and most obvious approach. That way announcements can be made and commented on in the same place.
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Re: reference the new Add-ons

Unread postby fillerup » Sat, 22 Sep 2018, 18:49

Isengrim wrote:Add-on developers should use the forum to announce releases or updates, and that is where users should look for them. To me, that is the simplest and most obvious approach. That way announcements can be made and commented on in the same place.

if threads are created by the devs themselves, they will inevitable turn into bug report/request threads, and i guess some devs don't wish to provide support via the forum/prefer other locations for bug reporting.

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Re: reference the new Add-ons

Unread postby JustOff » Sat, 22 Sep 2018, 19:40

Unfortunately, it seems there is nothing to discuss here, as the decision has already been made. I'm sure this decision is wrong, but I see no reason to bring arguments no one is going to listen to. I almost resigned myself to the fact that we will never have a convenient and modern add-ons site. It's sad, but this is not the end of the world. At least we have a good browser.
Here are the add-ons I made in a spare time. That was fun!

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Re: reference the new Add-ons

Unread postby Moonchild » Sat, 22 Sep 2018, 19:59

Hey, if you all think you can do it so much better, then be my guest.

Set up a site, host it, write code for it, maintain it, provide an automatic update service, and maintain extension submissions on it or have a "modern and convenient" self-serve system in place. You are "sure we are doing it wrong"? Then do what's right, and invest your time and expertise into providing something better for Pale Moon and Basilisk (and other UXP extension-capable applications in the future). That way all of us can focus on other things.

Any takers? JustOff? fillerup? laozi? mrnhmath?
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Re: reference the new Add-ons

Unread postby fillerup » Sat, 22 Sep 2018, 20:36

you know MC, i love you as much as anyone can love a faceless software developer over the internet. but i have to say that you tend to get snippy mighty quick when it comes to certain types of suggestions or perceived criticism. it's easy to recognize the rhetoric in those situations: why don't you do/make/fork it yourself, why are you here/why don't you use another browser, etc. that kind of talk isn't very conducive to a productive conversation, in fact it tends to shut it down entirely.

since there's nothing more to discuss on this matter, i'll drop the subject and not bring it up again

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Re: reference the new Add-ons

Unread postby JustOff » Sat, 22 Sep 2018, 21:30

Sorry, Moonchild, but you already stated clearly that you believe that any highlighting of new or updated extensions would favor developers, while from my point of view the ability to sort extensions by all available criteria, including the time of creation or updating, is essential and has nothing to do with favoritism. I also doubt that you have changed your mind about the importance of providing information about the number of users of each extension, which, in my opinion, you tend to incorrectly call telemetry. So, unfortunately, I can't be your guest on this matter, even if I wanted to.

I hope I can still benefit the project in other tasks, but I cannot but regret the situation with the add-ons site.
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Re: reference the new Add-ons

Unread postby Moonchild » Sat, 22 Sep 2018, 23:26

fillerup wrote:it's easy to recognize the rhetoric in those situations

You know why? Because I deal with the same rhetoric over and over myself. Here we are, pouring every day of our lives into trying to provide what we can to you in our respective visions. Including all these extra things we provide alongside the browser that is, dare I say, not far removed from what a large corporation provides. And what do I get in return? Nothing but complaints if we don't dance exactly to the pipes of users who don't want to ever help out with the bigger things this project can use so much: help with larger issues in the code base, help with additional services, and dare I say pretty inflexible attitudes from people who want to push their opinion not realizing how thin we are already spread.

So excuse me for getting "snippy". All I ever suggest here is that if you think you can do a better job providing these services, then please do so. It's not meant to be dismissive, it is 100% sincere. I would welcome others actually taking over some of these tasks, but yes, it is a responsibility and requires an investment not unlike we already make. And I'll make clear here too that if someone does take over such a task they can shape it as they see fit with whatever features they think belong or not belong in it; if you do a better job that serves users better, all the better and I would rejoice!

When push comes to shove, I've not seen that effort made, though. Even with freedom offered. So, I hope people understand we have to make practical decisions to reduce the workload, and that some design decisions will always be personal and people will not like some of those decisions. We always try to balance things out. The design decision was made to keep the addons site free of developer or user bias to the extent we can. If you don't like the design decisions made there then the offer is open to do it in our stead with a different design. We'll provide limited help to set things up but it'd become your project, your task under your control.
Tobin has been writing a full database system to move extensions to, from the ground up. It is not meant to be a social platform, it's not meant to cater to comments, ratings, feedback or sorting that other software might. It is meant to present extensions to multiple applications and streamline discovery and updates of them. We have to draw the line what features go in it somewhere and no, it will never be a full management platform as a result.
Going full AMO might be more user-friendly but it is also something that requires dedicated governance, moderation and maintenance that can't be provided without help (and I personally can't stand the AMO software and don't have the required knowledge to run it). If you want to get more, more will have to be put in. Our time, skill and energy isn't limitless.

EDIT: I do hope that I made myself clear this time. I've tried before and it apparently didn't come across and has as a result been seen as throwaway rhetoric. It isn't. If it's still not clear then I'm sorry -- either way I'm pretty well done with this topic at this point. The extensions site is not really my responsibility anymore.
Last edited by Moonchild on Sun, 23 Sep 2018, 00:04, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: reference the new Add-ons

Unread postby laozi » Sun, 23 Sep 2018, 05:46

when I see the controversy succeeded by my proposal and the answers provided by PaleMoon's decision-makers,
never but then I should never have asked this question ! the post is to be deleted as soon as possible


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