plan for [External] items?

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Re: plan for [External] items?

Post by half-moon » 2017-03-08, 13:38

intika wrote:- 4 PaleMoon Website ? : i have a mitigated feeling about palemoon site, i think the website need some modern design
I disagree, the Pale Moon site looks great in my opinion and that last thing it needs is some ugly flat Metro/Material type of design.

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Re: plan for [External] items?

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2017-03-08, 14:05

intika wrote: Hello all :)

i have some ideas to discuss about the subject (those are just ideas ^^)
(note : sorry if i may include my self as contributor or part of the thing but it's open and community driven right ?! lol)

- 1 Porting Request : First, i think we should have a section on the main site where any user could ask devs over here to port a specific (not compatible) extension to palemoon let say we would have a section on the main site with some explanation and a redirection to a forum "request section", devs (me included) would satisfy requests when possible, most of time just tiny changes are needed, of course we would respect the process of "Pull request" / "Fork" / "Contacting dev" / "Etc" but the advantage would be the ease and accessibility for non dev user

- 2 Addons Page Expansion : It's obvious that for the moment we are in kind of "Wait and see" regarding "https://addons.mozilla.org" but as the PM project is growing palemoon should have a way more rich addons page, i think a team should be assigned to the task of porting most used addons (contactings dev/forking etc...) we should discuss the exact process to follow, and may be create a team for that, (i am willing to help, i already started ^^)
It is not at all feasible for the Add-ons Team to port/fix/maintain every extension that may happen our way. Even when this was attempted in a limited scope it grew out of hand quickly. This is what extension developers are for and if they won't.. Others will in time.
intika wrote:- 3 What if Mozilla shutdown old extensions on "addons.mozilla.org" ??? : As already said in this topic we should at least have a backup of that site, i managed to do one my self, using "HTTrack Website Copier" it's still downloading (elapsed time 8h - current size 5,7 Gb - simultaneous connection set to 4 - my network speed is 100MBPS - 2154 xpi files and 60500 web files downloaded by now) i setup the capture to get xpi, you just need to add *.xpi to the capture project as file to save, and that's it !, capture done it's no more complicated... any way i think by tomorrow i will have a full capture with all addons etc. (i am not willing to publish or to do any right violation but i keep a copy in case of...)
Mozilla site seems to hold 18526 extensions
Duplicated effort AND exceedingly redundant to what has already been done. See my post above.. Dumping AMO in its entirety doesn't give easy parsable access to any data .. Also, there is already a dump of 2014's AMO datastore of extensions with metadata from when it was on FTP and a 2015 update with only latest theoretically compatible versions.. A new run needs to be done and will, as mentioned above, exploit AUS and API to actually get relevant files and metadata not crippled html dumps that aren't even complete unless your scraper executes javascript. Also, one is really only interested in EXTENSIONS not personas or themes or langpacks.. Get some perspective. There are about 12000 extensions.. Many old and don't work many new and don't work..
intika wrote:- 4 PaleMoon Website ? : i have a mitigated feeling about palemoon site, i think the website need some modern design and should reflect an opensource community driven project like firefox, plus the site should also high light the features... in my "personal opinion" the site look like a private company promoting some old closed source software ... i think the marketing have a lot to give to palemoon... some example website : firefox - cyberfox - opera - waterfox
The Pale Moon website design is solid and while evolutionary steps may be needed they are minor tweaks or extrapolations in what is already there. The Add-ons Site design could be considered an advancement in design evolution for a very solid and distinctive design. Also, see: http://dev.addons.palemoon.org/ (which may be broken at any time because it is a live dev site) where such things can be tested or introduced.

All your examples look generic and most look nearly identical. Why would you wish that kind of uninspired conformity on all of us?
intika wrote:- 5 Future investment ? : i don't know how much are palemoon income, but i think the project should have a bigger objective let say beat chrome in the market share, if we never think of that, we will never reach a considerable goal and market share, the focus determine the direction, if the focus is just to keep geeks having their extensions working we will not go far away... i am talking about that because amazing work had been done to the core engine, amazing stuff had been done to the browser, palemoon work correctly it's faster than firefox it's secure etc... so the potential is huge !!!!
Keeping things basic the idea here is to make some investment for the growth, depending if the income are capable to handle a dev team or so...
Yeah because that has worked so well for Mozilla right? Beating Chrome.. sure yeah I am sure Moonchild will get right on that. I think you are overlaying your goals on top of the Project's. But Moonchild will have to elaborate on that further.
intika wrote:- 5 Pale Moon Icon ? : am i the only one thinking that palemoon icon should have a better style ? the current one is nice but it could be amazing
You are not the only one but you are one of a couple. The Pale Moon branding including the icon as well as the site design go hand in hand. It is totally solid and distinctive. See above.

ADDITIONALLY -- And this is not related to the post I quoted.

Phoebus 1.5 will make a distinction between [AMO] and [External].. So the topic of this thread will be a little misleading real soon.
See: https://github.com/Pale-Moon-Addons-Team/phoebus/blob/TRUNK/phoebus/skin/palemoon/category-addons.tpl#L21
and: https://github.com/Pale-Moon-Addons-Team/phoebus/blob/TRUNK/phoebus/skin/palemoon/category-addons.tpl#L51
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Re: plan for [External] items?

Post by Lootyhoof » 2017-03-08, 16:25

intika wrote:...
In addition to Tobin's post above, please see here.
deb00t wrote:Addon developer here. The main concern for me, considering the addon's availability on Palemoon addons site are - compatibility and the update feature.
I've stumbled over some minor failures, trying to install and run the addon under Palemoon - mostly features that have been recently removed/changed in Gecko engine (like moving the Console module to another location) or haven't yet/maybe won't be implemented in Goana (some ES6 deprecations and new stuff) - might elaborate if requested.
After fixing these differences I was fully able to run the addon without any noticable glitches (haven't dug very deep, but overall testing of features went fine).

The addon is (ofc) currently hosted at AMO, unlisted however. Users can download it from http://www.cyclone3.org, but the addon is being maintained through AMO - new releases, update rdf, and stuff.

I need to figure out the update process - uploading the addon to Palemoon addons, ideally with automatic rdf file update - we were updating rdf files on our server manually in the beginning, had to switch to AMO because of signing and approval changes in Firefox. I would like to test this through the Palemoon addons site - the whole process:
1. Uploading the xpi (+ mandatory manifests for Palemoon)
2. installing it in Palemoon
3. uploading a new version.
4. auto-update in Palemoon through update.rdf.

The changes in code required for Palemoon aren't breaking the addon in Firefox, so I could push them to AMO and try to install from there, but it wouldn't test what I need.

Also, is Palemoon planning nanny the users by approving addons, or their new versions, respectively? We've had to change multiple issues because of Firefox's policies - like mixing chrome-located html file with a remote api link (google maps location finder).
With regards to AMO, if the Firefox minVersion is higher than 27.9 then Pale Moon users will not receive updates. For the Pale Moon Add-ons Site, general information is available here, however in respect to your points/concerns:

1. We provide an FTP repository where developers can upload their XPIs. At this time we do not perform approval of add-ons; an XPI uploaded to the repository is available to users immediately.
2. No update.rdf is required (and actively discouraged if hosting directly with us) - we provide our own autoupdate infrastructure. We do use two metadata files, phoebus.manifest and phoebus.content, which are described in the link above. These are placed in the FTP repository and (in the case of phoebus.manifest) should be updated with each new version to ensure users can access it (though you could probably automate this if required).

Hope this helps.

kizo07

Re: plan for [External] items?

Post by kizo07 » 2017-03-08, 20:40

I think that you have some valid points here.
intika wrote:i think the website need some modern design and should reflect an opensource community driven project
plus the site should also high light the features
site look like a private company promoting some old closed source software
if we never think of that, we will never reach a considerable goal and market share, the focus determine the direction, if the focus is just to keep geeks having their extensions working we will not go far away... i am talking about that because amazing work had been done to the core engine, amazing stuff had been done to the browser, palemoon work correctly it's faster than firefox it's secure etc... so the potential is huge
icon should have a better style ? the current one is nice but it could be amazing
But, let's go back to OP and this:
JustOff wrote: let's find a proper way to do it. The background is clear: we have possibilities and limitations and I think we smart enough to make things right
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Re: plan for [External] items?

Post by JustOff » 2017-03-08, 21:19

Tobin, could you please count (via nginx logs?) and publish top 100 (500-1000?) add-ons requested via update check from APMO?
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Re: plan for [External] items?

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2017-03-08, 21:32

I don't keep nginx logs unless something needs debugged. This is mentioned elsewhere. The last tap I put on AUS amounted to 5100 actively used extensions. Total of some 7000 installed. But that was in late 2015.

End result was kinda this: http://dev.addons.palemoon.org/obj-dir/phoenix/compat-ext.php WARNING: WILL temporarily block the main UI thread of the browser because of the massive amount of data loaded and icon requests.

That data was constructed based on a tap placed on OUR AUS and exploiting AMO's AUS and API but that was based on things theoretically compatible with Pale Moon 26. That and along with the 2014 dump of the entire AMO datastore from FTP for the complete XPI history of extensions up to that point of then existing extensions is all we have. For those that exist we also have most metadata.

The problem here today is while we can run that scan again.. There is even less way to know if the current versions of XPIs we download are all of it.. We are restricted either to Latest Version or version applicable to what we tell AUS our Firefox version is.. Which hardly makes any sense anymore in a Tycho world.

Total number of extensions in our phoenix datastore is 12,229 totaling 15.6 GB. I must also point out that there is no metadata for a sizable segment of that datastore because they didn't exist any longer on AMO.

This datastore will NEVER be on the Pale Moon Add-ons Site btw.. But a separate site isn't out of the question as purely a resource archive.
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Re: plan for [External] items?

Post by JustOff » 2017-03-08, 21:53

Thanks, but unfortunately the data you linked does not includes any stats. Could you please setup separate log (just add-on's id + version + browser version from update requests or something as simple as that) and collect more recent and info with counts? I think it should not create an unnecessarily large load, but can be very useful for the next steps on topic.
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Re: plan for [External] items?

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2017-03-08, 21:57

I could put a tap on AUS and get the IDs.. However, I refuse to waste my time collecting telemetry like number of things on which thing.. Either they are all important or they are not. Also, I am not going to potentially add a temporary tap on AUS until Phoebus 1.5 lands.

Also, I dunno why you are trying to give me orders.. I am the one with the phoenix datastore (aside from the copy I gave Moonchild) and I am the one with the technology and knowledge to exploit AMO's AUS and API and I am the one who carries the risk of being blacklisted for abuse of TOS or risk getting DMCA'd. In this instance.. I am running the show here. Non-negotiable.
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Re: plan for [External] items?

Post by kizo07 » 2017-03-08, 23:24

Tobin, you have probably valid points here (I said probably because I don't understand completely implications in your case). But I understood it's your arguments and you stand on it.
So, in that respect, looks like that we need to find some other ways/solutions. Hence, with help from others in community, do more 'manual' work, most popular?/top rated?...?

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Re: plan for [External] items?

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2017-03-09, 01:09

Let me reiterate that I am not saying an archive site wouldn't be helpful. This was conceived as such a long while ago hence why there happens to be a phoenix datastore to begin with and why methods for doing things have been explored and also devised. What I am saying in no uncertain terms will the Add-ons Site proper just start posting these 12k extensions even in unmodified form as if it was sanctioned.

Now an archive that doesn't carry Pale Moon branding or the expectations of an add-ons site is a different story and as mentioned above it does carry risk. Especially, for the 7k or so extensions that are not updated or have no metadata. However, the 5k can mostly be filtered by reading the metadata so that only those with open source licenses are separated out. This would widdled down the number likely to a state that might be manageable. However, any that don't have license in metadata as well as unchecked 7k being put out to the public would be at the very least irresponsible.

It is a worthy goal and regardless of public access.. we still have it so things could be pulled out and access on an on-demand basis. It just all needs careful consideration and thoughtful application.
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Re: plan for [External] items?

Post by Moonchild » 2017-03-09, 08:33

i don't know how much are palemoon income, but i think the project should have a bigger objective let say beat chrome in the market share
Setting unrealistic goals will not help the project... at all!
Chrome has an as large market share as it does because of the target audience and literally having billions to spend on marketing (and free advertising through their own ad publishing network). Not to mention keeping things close to home by catering their popular services to always work best in their client.
As an independent alternative, Pale Moon simply won't be able to set "beat Chrome's market share" as a realistic goal -- how would we give that goal shape?... What steps could we take to make this happen?
Mozilla seemed to think that it was enough to make itself into a "very similar browser" combined with some "but we have better principles" marketing, but that didn't really pan out, did it? :)

Gaining a larger market share for Pale Moon is mostly up to our community and how other people respond to our community's efforts. The only way our market share can grow is organically. "Throwing money at it" isn't a fix-all for these things.
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Re: plan for [External] items?

Post by intika » 2017-03-09, 10:03

Moonchild wrote:
i think the project should have a bigger objective let say beat chrome in the market share
Setting unrealistic goals will not help the project... at all!
"Throwing money at it" isn't a fix-all for these things.
1. Structure : I know this is not a realistic goal but setting the bar higher will let us reach a considerable market share and community. PM have a true potential of 10% market share, plus the mess going around with mozilla is like a considerable opportunity of growth, it's why i talk about a solid company infrastructure with employee etc. not as big as mozilla but at least with some peoples to start with (even 3) the importance is to start, i think we should be getting ready for the future coming changes, it's why also i talk about site/design etc. in psychology the first feeling is the one that remain, if i am new to an application and the design and things going around are not really pleasant to me, then the application will not too... even if it's amazing... how many times we found our selves as IT trying to fix or workaround a real messy application because of the nice feeling we have around it, other than using something else... keeping things simple here is my idea, one day soon a lot of users (already the case now) will be looking for a new browser, as a PM lover i really hope we will be ready to land those users by giving them the best experience possible, starting with the site and application and endings with the extensions. it's why also i talk about marketings changes on the main site like pointing out some feature not a lot but just 3 would be nice... example, PM is one of the rare browser that really seem to respect privacy (no tracking no safebrowsing feature no things hidden under the hood etc) and this is the first selling point for me, it's not advertised but i know it because of my knowledge, even mozilla is promoting privacy etc. but at the end of the day they are run by google so it's the same big brother thing just less intrusive... one more time to keep things simple i think those feature : privacy/extensions/opensource should be more visible on the main page.

2. The threshold : if we become a community just a little bit more important, the project will have all the chances of growth and maintenance, i really would not love to see a world where 99% of user are using webkit and a dieing 1% spread between PM and other fancy browser, it's why we should take care a of the coming opportunity... (a lot of users would just give up and switch to what's we give them and it's a big part, those users need to be seduced)

3. Marketing : According to the roadmap i personally love it... we just need to work on it especially on extensions like we are discussing in here PLUS the marketing area as i explained here (and i think it have a big importance)

4. Goal/Target : Regarding the target i think the road map is very nice and clear, but it's missing something "A main clear goad" i think this is very important because it's what drive a project somewhere or nowhere

5. Extensions : Thus said going back to the extensions proposition... we for sure need to extend the extensions list on the addons page. it's complicated to get things done quickly in a community (because of the lac of solid infrastructure and decision making system "going back to what i said first")
Here is one idea : create an addons page with a dump of let say 100-500 most used addons without testing them but create a system that let the user report the usability of the extension let say a simple scoring system (thumb up/down count) to the legal concern we could just fork those extension and add "PM Fork Version" to the name or so and put a link on the extension page that let the original developer claim the development of it's extension when he is willing to continue dev/support it or just claim it

6. Personal Plan : For my self as a simple action plan : i am planning to Port/Fork/Create as much extension as i can on the forum, i am already at the count of 3 (Toolbar Position Changer - Addons Memory Usage Stats - Tab Group Helper "will post it later today")

7. Dev Extensions Lack : i could say that i suffer from a lack of a simple posting website but never mind i use the forum ;)

8. Extensions forgotten thing : one important thing also to consider is the extensions compatibility and accessibility when it come to mobile version, mozilla had done an amazing work according that we should keep that in mind regarding our future extensions structure/site

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Re: plan for [External] items?

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2017-03-09, 11:06

intika wrote:1. Structure : I know this is not a realistic goal but setting the bar higher will let us reach a considerable market share and community. PM have a true potential of 10% market share, plus the mess going around with mozilla is like a considerable opportunity of growth, it's why i talk about a solid company infrastructure with employee etc. not as big as mozilla but at least with some peoples to start with (even 3) the importance is to start, i think we should be getting ready for the future coming changes, it's why also i talk about site/design etc. in psychology the first feeling is the one that remain, if i am new to an application and the design and things going around are not really pleasant to me, then the application will not too... even if it's amazing... how many times we found our selves as IT trying to fix or workaround a real messy application because of the nice feeling we have around it, other than using something else... keeping things simple here is my idea, one day soon a lot of users (already the case now) will be looking for a new browser, as a PM lover i really hope we will be ready to land those users by giving them the best experience possible, starting with the site and application and endings with the extensions. it's why also i talk about marketings changes on the main site like pointing out some feature not a lot but just 3 would be nice... example, PM is one of the rare browser that really seem to respect privacy (no tracking no safebrowsing feature no things hidden under the hood etc) and this is the first selling point for me, it's not advertised but i know it because of my knowledge, even mozilla is promoting privacy etc. but at the end of the day they are run by google so it's the same big brother thing just less intrusive... one more time to keep things simple i think those feature : privacy/extensions/opensource should be more visible on the main page.
I don't think you are reading or have read what has been said past and present. You are stating the obvious and nothing that hasn't already been considered. I really wish you would stop trying to impose your goals onto this project.
intika wrote:2. The threshold : if we become a community just a little bit more important, the project will have all the chances of growth and maintenance, i really would not love to see a world where 99% of user are using webkit and a dieing 1% spread between PM and other fancy browser, it's why we should take care a of the coming opportunity... (a lot of users would just give up and switch to what's we give them and it's a big part, those users need to be seduced)
One of the fundamental things in this project is that they don't want users to feel forced into anything. If another browser or solution works best for them they should use it. Perhaps, your lack of actually checking for the multitudes of times this has been stated may lead you to saying this.. I dunno. But choice remains sacrosanct.. If that choice leads people elsewhere so be it. While Pale Moon has grown in recent years there is still a large mentality of not wanting to do anything to help.. The Project's own recent survey said as much. Perhaps, you should check it out.

http://www.palemoon.org/survey2017/index.shtml
intika wrote:3. Marketing : According to the roadmap i personally love it... we just need to work on it especially on extensions like we are discussing in here PLUS the marketing area as i explained here (and i think it have a big importance)

4. Goal/Target : Regarding the target i think the road map is very nice and clear, but it's missing something "A main clear goad" i think this is very important because it's what drive a project somewhere or nowhere
The goals for the project are spelled out in hundreds of posts and all over the main website. Perhaps you should re-read it and again not impose your goals upon us as a community or the Project.
intika wrote:5. Extensions : Thus said going back to the extensions proposition... we for sure need to extend the extensions list on the addons page. it's complicated to get things done quickly in a community (because of the lac of solid infrastructure and decision making system "going back to what i said first")
Here is one idea : create an addons page with a dump of let say 100-500 most used addons without testing them but create a system that let the user report the usability of the extension let say a simple scoring system (thumb up/down count) to the legal concern we could just fork those extension and add "PM Fork Version" to the name or so and put a link on the extension page that let the original developer claim the development of it's extension when he is willing to continue dev/support it or just claim it

6. Personal Plan : For my self as a simple action plan : i am planning to Port/Fork/Create as much extension as i can on the forum, i am already at the count of 3 (Toolbar Position Changer - Addons Memory Usage Stats - Tab Group Helper "will post it later today")
What exactly do you base that on. There are clear areas of responsibility regarding various aspects of the project. Moonchild is the Owner and Lead Developer of the Pale Moon project.. Beyond that people are in charge of various aspects. I know because I was one who WAS in charge of various aspects. There is a clear command structure.

I dunno how legit your forks are.. I hope you are following basic procedure but you are basically re-inventing the Pseudo-Static plan and that is not viable or acceptable and shall not be done.. It will prove even more disastrous as the original plan on a smaller scale did. I will also fight any attempt to try and pull that kind of garbage again. If I have to re-assume my status and position in this project to do it.. I will. I do not to have to do that however as I am much happier as a free agent. Don't make me fight you and those who think like you. It would only end up bad for everyone.

This project has seen and I have explained many times, including in this very thread, the dangers of a Psuedo-Static style plan and just assuming that all add-ons regardless of terms and legalities are ours to do with as we please. Re-read my previous posts and follow history and decisions already made.

The discussion, this thread's primary topic, is basically moot and you have not been paying attention or ignoring key parts of what I have stated. I am not gonna state them again. You guys are scrambling and not thinking things through.. Stuff I and others have already thought through years ago. Don't assume you know better or understand the scope of the implications you guys suggest. Implications and actions that could do more harm than good. Stop thinking in terms of limited scope instant gratification and copying everyone else. This is a disaster waiting to happen and I won't have it.

I love how you think Pale Moon should adopt a more corporate mentality and even corporate status then suggest we take all these risks with license terms, copyright, trademark, and what could even be considered out right piracy. I can't decide if you are merely naive or an agent of opposition trying to get the Project to make big mistakes and sabotage its very existence.
intika wrote:7. Dev Extensions Lack : i could say that i suffer from a lack of a simple posting website but never mind i use the forum ;)
http://developer.palemoon.org/Add-ons:Site
intika wrote:8. Extensions forgotten thing : one important thing also to consider is the extensions compatibility and accessibility when it come to mobile version, mozilla had done an amazing work according that we should keep that in mind regarding our future extensions structure/site
There are no plans to do add-ons for Pale Moon for Android.. Not even sure Pale Moon for Android will see a new major version. This is a totally seperate thing that may be addressed in the futrure or may not.
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Re: plan for [External] items?

Post by intika » 2017-03-09, 12:21

Matt A Tobin wrote:...
lol ... don't worry those are just ideas and answers to what have been said, sharing different point of view and different idea lead to improvement, i have 0 power when it come to decisions so keep it cool bro ;) also i saw what you done for the community it's amazing to see people actively contributing and as much as you do :thumbup:

For my personal plan regarding extension, also don't worry i follow the rules, and i know about http://developer.palemoon.org/Add-ons:Site ... i just suggested an easier way to post addons... The human being is good just few are devils don't see aggression in any different mind thinking ;) And lastly, i love PM and when it come to extension modification dev etc. i do it for my self sharing it here is just a plus.

kizo07

Re: plan for [External] items?

Post by kizo07 » 2017-03-09, 12:47

Intika, I like your mindset and how you express yourself. In sports call it 'the winner mentality'. People as you I could easy imagine either as my boss or as my partner/coworker.
On the other side, we also need to find balance...to have vision, also to be realistic in the present, but focus anyway.
Thus, also important what Tobin stands too...'It just all needs careful consideration and thoughtful application.'

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Re: plan for [External] items?

Post by intika » 2017-03-09, 14:13

kizo07 wrote:...
:thumbup: ;)
Matt A Tobin wrote: A new run needs to be done and will, as mentioned above, exploit AUS and API to actually get relevant files and metadata not crippled html dumps that aren't even complete unless your scraper executes javascript
As i already mentioned it HTTrack work fine to dump AMO fully... (support js) the only downside is time and size... i am running it since 35h - 15 GB ... and it seem to have captured 10% ... i will let it continue capturing and post the stats here once it's done, in the future if that backup is needed i will publish/post it somewhere... (and i know about the legal concern... i could post it as a way back archive)... or i could just send it to those who want a copy ;)

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Re: plan for [External] items?

Post by JustOff » 2017-03-09, 17:59

Matt A Tobin wrote:I could put a tap on AUS and get the IDs.. However, I refuse to waste my time collecting telemetry like number of things on which thing.. Either they are all important or they are not. Also, I am not going to potentially add a temporary tap on AUS until Phoebus 1.5 lands.
It's very sad that you don't want to see the difference between statistics and telemetry. Actually it's enough to add literally two lines into the nginx config to collect all the necessary data (php backend isn't affected). I could help you with this and the subsequent processing if required.
Also, I dunno why you are trying to give me orders..
There is a clear public demand for APMO statistics from the both users and developers, and you are the only one who currently have the required access rights. This is why I kindly asked you and I'm surprised that you consider this an order.
Here are the add-ons I made in a spare time. That was fun!

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Re: plan for [External] items?

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2017-03-09, 18:06

I am? So Moonchild, Ryan, and Andy all have suddenly lost sudoers and push access to Regolith? When did this happen? Also, you may wanna check the Pale Moon privacy policy.

A clear pubic demand? From all of four people over two and a half years? My gosh, must snap to at once! What would I have done without your omniscient oversight of things you obviously know very little about? Oh yeah, I could have not had to defend my self against another personal and public attack. Sure you don't wanna grab riiis to double team me again..

You blame and target me when you don't get what you want or are called out on it simply because it comes from me.

But, JustOff, what you fail to realize is when it comes to this AMO archive thing or a rehashed Pseudo-Static plan or the collection of masses of complex statistics that go well and beyond set and evolving policies or legal and even political implications that my voice is echoing that of our project leader. Admittedly a harsh and blunt echo and not as well phrased echo but an echo nonetheless.
[20170309.0611-05] Tobin: Hi
[20170309.0611-12] Moonchild: Yo
[20170309.0612-16] Tobin: so what do you think.. You think a rehashed Pseudo-Static plan should come back like that intika and JustOff wants?
[20170309.0612-35] Moonchild: huhwhat?
[20170309.0612-50] Tobin: well that is what they are calling for with the phoenix datastore and amo dumps
[20170309.0613-11] Tobin: they want us to shove 500-1000 or all 12k onto the add-ons site as if we have the right to do so
[20170309.0613-18] Moonchild: No.
[20170309.0613-22] Moonchild: Fuck no.
[20170309.0613-24] Tobin: Thank you
[20170309.0613-42] Moonchild: If they want to mirror AMO and take responsibility, they can.
[...]
[20170309.0614-10] Moonchild: They can get a VPS, do what they need to do to make it public, and take responsibility.
[20170309.0614-16] Tobin: I have no issue with a pure historical archive thing
[20170309.0614-37] Tobin: but throwing it under a Pale Moon domain and branding is just asking for insanity
[20170309.0614-47] Moonchild: I won't have it
[20170309.0614-55] Tobin: I know you won't
[20170309.0615-03] Tobin: I just needed to factcheck my self
[20170309.0615-04] Moonchild: I don't know where this discussion took place but feel free to quote this chat.
[20170309.0615-16] Tobin: that external thread
[20170309.0615-44] Tobin: JustOff wanted me to put a telemetry tap on AUS and give him data.. i refused
[20170309.0615-48] Moonchild: Oh the thread I stopped watching because of the level of dickishness being displayed
[20170309.0615-50] Moonchild: that one
[20170309.0616-08] Tobin: yeah
[20170309.0616-11] Tobin: that one
[20170309.0616-11] Moonchild: Justoff can do it himself
[20170309.0616-19] Tobin: how lol
[20170309.0616-36] Moonchild: by not expecting things on a silver platter :P
[20170309.0616-48] Tobin: well he obviously can't get server data
[20170309.0616-59] Tobin: data I don't collect
[20170309.0617-22] Moonchild: If he wants to mirror AMO, then he can figure out a way to do it
[20170309.0617-23] Tobin: he wanted full on telemetry data for AUS including all guids, number of hits, application versions, etc
[20170309.0617-35] Moonchild: No, I won't have it.
[20170309.0617-36] Tobin: not gonna happen
[20170309.0617-39] Tobin: exactly man
[20170309.0617-42] Moonchild: It's against our posted privacy policy
[20170309.0618-34] Tobin: the MOST i would ever do is limited to what I have done before.. collect IDs and today.. I am not even comfortable doing that..
[20170309.0619-47] Moonchild: By definition, that kind of collected, linked data falls under personal information.
[20170309.0619-56] Tobin: it does
[20170309.0620-16] Tobin: surprised he didn't mention IP addresses
[20170309.0620-23] Tobin: this is simply why i don't save anything
[20170309.0620-35] Moonchild: So if we want to collect that, we would need to have users explicitly volunteer it.
[20170309.0621-10] Tobin: I'll make it easy.. I can't be bothered to do it :P
[20170309.0621-17] Moonchild: hah
[...]
[20170309.0637-48] Moonchild: *updates the privacy policy to explicitly state we don't collect telemetry on browser/extension use.
[...]
[20170309.0645-54] Tobin: I consider Telemetry to be a string of relatable values to create a picture.. The general usership numbers alone don't i'd even argue when I am not currently being colored by bombardment of stupidity.. say collecting all extension ids and ONLY extension ids for 48 hours is not telemetry.. collecting number of hits + ids + application version + whatever IS telemetry and I refuse to do it
[20170309.0646-36] Moonchild: Exactly.
[...]
[20170309.0652-19] Tobin: hell we even protect people from AMO telemetry by only sending what is absolutely necessary to function i thought that was a big deal
[...]
[20170309.0653-30] Tobin: https://github.com/Pale-Moon-Addons-Tea ... s.php#L115
[20170309.0654-41] Moonchild: yeah I remember. And yeah I know. no need to send AMO stuff they don't need to have.
[20170309.0656-35] Tobin: Ever since the ABP incident i've been very careful to do things on the up and up and with KaiRo's little stealing code comment it just hardened that
Now as for your continued issue and perception of me.. personally.. You can take that up with me in private or take it up with Moonchild or the forum moderators but this back and forth bickering stops here.. Today.. It isn't good for me or anyone else reading it. Also, for godsake, check your facts next time..
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Re: plan for [External] items?

Post by intika » 2017-03-09, 23:02

Matt A Tobin wrote:...
i get your point, you just want a real genuine extension page with devs actively supporting the extensions they made etc... now i understand your vision, you could just simply explain it without all this passion... after all, we all are just looking to make things better...
i think at the end of the day, Palemoon is what it is and that's it, also most user are advanced users as the survey show, so every one could just TuneIt/HackIT privately regarding extensions... the most important thing is that this browser exist and support what we need... for the rest in my case when i love i love fully just wanted to see if i can help somewhere ;) and my initial inquietude was what if Mozilla shut down xul on amo, but we have solutions so it's okay ;).

kizo07

Re: plan for [External] items?

Post by kizo07 » 2017-03-10, 12:52

intika wrote:make things better
Intika, I think I can see what you actually mean here.

The will to win, the desire to succeed, the urge to reach your full potential...these are the keys that will unlock the door to excellence.
You again have a point here. We shouldn't be satisfied with mediocre thinking...'If you can’t learn to do it well, learn to enjoy doing it badly.'

The hardest thing to learn in life is which bridge to cross and which to burn. Learning from your mistakes is smart, learning from the mistakes of others is wise.
So, let everyone sweep in front of his own door, and the whole world will be clean.

Ignorance or apathy? Who knows? Who cares? ;)

Intika, once again...Nice to meet you! :)

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