plan for [External] items?

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plan for [External] items?

Postby joe04 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:32 am

First off, nice job Add-on team updating the site and adding some entries to the list.

Sometime next year AMO will be WebExtensions only, so is there a plan to upload Xpi's currently marked [External]?

It'd be great if many more time-honored Xpi's are made available, all hosted on Pale Moon servers.

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Re: plan for [External] items?

Postby Lootyhoof » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:23 am

We can only host them with the author's permission. Ideally they should approach us about hosting, though there have been a few instances lately where I've personally approached developers (where the developer already supported Pale Moon).

We will need to wait and see who wishes to support us.

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Re: plan for [External] items?

Postby joe04 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:13 am

Lootyhoof wrote:We can only host them with the author's permission.


Is that a matter of principle or are there actual legal concerns? (Serious question, I'm ignorant in these matters.)

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Re: plan for [External] items?

Postby joe04 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:18 am

I started this thread thinking specifically about extensions that have been around for a long time and either haven't been updated in a while because still work fine or have an older version that works fine in PM. Gems like ReadEasily (not updated in many years, still great) and MenuWizard 2.10 (an old version that's flawless in PM).

So thinking out loud here -- what about collecting a bunch of these on GitHub (or some other free, FOSS-friendly big cloud) and archiving them for community use. Heck, I'm willing to do it at GitHub now.

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Re: plan for [External] items?

Postby New Tobin Paradigm » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:43 am

There are rights issues to be considered as well as principles. Ignoring either could put them into positions of not being trustworthy.

On one hand while many many extensions are free and open source that does not give rights to intellectual property such as names, logos, etc. As I have explained before, the principle part comes in when you are effectively overriding Add-ons AUS where allegations of highjacking extension IDs come into play. That is why I have mentioned any proper fork must contain a change to the ID in addition to satisfying licensing and branding concerns.

It is a complicated situation and the burden is great. The old Psuedo-Statics were a great example of where this can fall flat on its face. During the v25 GUID change a modified version of Adblock Plus was put up and they not only were completely uncooperative with getting native Pale Moon support which at that time only needed a few lines as it was technologically compatible but threats were thrown for the rights violation. As a swift response ABL was created.

It became policy, which I wrote and pushed, that Pseudo-Statics and official archives could not be put up in this way and deff not on the primary add-ons site. The legal and moral risks are too high as the project has already been wrongfully accused of "stealing code".

The bright side is, while there is a concern of non-webextensions being purged from AMO it won't be an overnight thing. They still have to service an ESR version for a year first and even then they may not purge it at any rate.. We don't know.

I do know that as far as extensions are concerned that as long as a progress-stopping-decision (read PMKit) type of situation isn't provided that people will explore and start creating replacements. This was a fantastic glimmer of hope we had that was all too fleeting before decisions to give in to the masses were made.

I firmly believe that when push comes to shove that is where some of the best technical contributions and learning will snap back into play and those community members here will accomplish and succeed even when such a thing is deemed impossible. Unfortunately, without steadfast resolve some decisions lead to further retardation of progress and true innovation.
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Re: plan for [External] items?

Postby joe04 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:07 am

Thanks for explaining a number of factors. Seems like the best thing to do is wait-and-see.

From a logistic perspective an archive of old Xpi's can be done fairly quickly. And if they're deleted from AMO then that would seemingly remove any claim Mozilla would have on them.

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Re: plan for [External] items?

Postby New Tobin Paradigm » Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:24 am

I dunno where you got that idea.. It USED to be easy when it was all on FTP.. in order to efficiently get extensions from AMO in any quantity and in any reasonable time frame one needs to exploit Mozilla's AUS and AMO API.. I know, I've done it.. It also requires a complete list of AMO Numerical IDs and GUIDs.. And no a site scraper won't work because of the dynamic creation of content elements by javascript which defeats any kind of straight scraping technology.

Also, the claims aren't Mozilla's to make.. Every developer has their own rights which must be observed and for 12 thousand some extensions that is at most 12 thousand people who have rights to be observed.
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Re: plan for [External] items?

Postby joe04 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:37 am

joe04 wrote:extensions that have been around for a long time and either haven't been updated in a while because still work fine or have an older version that works fine in PM. Gems like ReadEasily (not updated in many years, still great) and MenuWizard 2.10 (an old version that's flawless in PM).


I'm only talking about Xpi's that don't need to change, so it's purely an archival activity. Xpi's for download at GitHub or similar is all I'm personally willing to do. It would need some manual curation (e.g. each candidate Xpi would need positive reviews at AMO or forum regulars vouching for it).

Anything new or actively-developed should be hosted at the PM addon site. So it'd be a complementary arrangement.

But, again, wait-and-see. Just floating the idea for now.

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Re: plan for [External] items?

Postby New Tobin Paradigm » Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:34 am

However, the author of each extension still has rights to determine where their files are hosted.
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Re: plan for [External] items?

Postby JustOff » Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:01 am

I think that joe04 made a very useful suggestion, which is also critically important for Pale Moon future.

Literally all open licenses (GPL, MPL, Apache, BSD, MIT) explicitly allow distribution/conveying of unmodified copy in object form (xpi in our case). I'm pretty sure that we can find the proper way to do so using Pale Moon add-ons site. And we should do this.
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Re: plan for [External] items?

Postby New Tobin Paradigm » Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:22 am

And the MPL specifically has terms and conditions relating to the possibility of extra conditions when (re)distribution in a final form MOSTLY dealing with compiled binaries but I feel it also relates to distribution of XPI files regardless of binary content inside them.. Which must be considered.

It is arrogant as hell to assume these files are ours to do with as we please. Despite your reluctance to begrudging acceptance to follow not only procedure as well as observing moral and legal considerations plus others blatantly ignoring them I remind you that it must be handled with extreme care.

I am not saying the suggestion isn't a good one but it must be approached carefully and there are lots of issues that go along with it.

There are also a significant portion of extensions that are also completely All Rights Reserved and those must be accounted for as well.
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Re: plan for [External] items?

Postby JustOff » Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:45 am

Oh, come on. Instead of blaming and inventing excuses, let's find a proper way to do it. The background is clear: we have possibilities and limitations and I think we smart enough to make things right.
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Re: plan for [External] items?

Postby Moonchild » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:28 pm

I wasn't going to respond here but since we're starting to throw things like "proper procedure" and "blaming" at each other anyway, let me say this:

Matt A Tobin wrote:I do know that as far as extensions are concerned that as long as a progress-stopping-decision (read PMKit) type of situation isn't provided that people will explore and start creating replacements. This was a fantastic glimmer of hope we had that was all too fleeting before decisions to give in to the masses were made.


I find this view extremely polarized and you've not been giving this enough thought. Principle had to make way for usability here. PMkit had to happen, as was clearly underlined by a fairly large percentage of users sticking to 26.5 because of extensions, and not willing to give up those extensions. While some extension devs might have been pushed to actually rewrite their extensions or alternatives being made derived from them, most would not. I wholly blame the ambiguity of extensions and using several completely different techniques under the same header to blur lines here, but the practical consideration was simple in essence: stick to principle (your way) and lose a good chunk of our user base not willing to abandon their extensions (no matter if they are facing that wall anyway come Nov if they go to use Firefox), OR, find a solution (PMkit) that makes the threshold for extension developers low enough (i.e.: not needing a rewrite) to smoothly transition their work to Pale Moon as an additional target application, while at the same time retaining our users who can more easily move forward provided a little support from extension devs.

Yes, I understand you don't like the add-on SDK and you know I agree with that. Calling the solution to keep supporting that Firefox extension legacy (which is considerable, more so than you might realize) a "progress-stopping-decision" is however not being very respectful towards several minds wanting to keep a broader view; especially since it's not stopping any progress (unless you feel like rewriting the internal devtools to not being sdk-based... that'll be messy... and even then that effort won't be stopped by keeping the modules in the core). "Giving in to the masses" is sometimes necessary unless you want to write yourself into obscurity. Even when doing so, though, I do it with reserve. I still don't like the add-on SDK and it still may be phased out, but only when it's time to do so.

After Firefox phases out all but the most limited extensions, I'm sure there will be a shift in how people look at extensions.
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Re: plan for [External] items?

Postby New Tobin Paradigm » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:41 am

You are correct and my apologies for the overpolarized .. well basically.. Attack.. Which is what it was.. Let me be honest.. It is an attack and always was not out of wanting to hurt people but .. Well the justification doesn't matter because those who don't see a reason behind it never will regardless and those who do won't agree with the methods used in calling it to attention.. So all I can do is not attack it anymore and applogize for mishandling.. again.

PMKit isn't even a point in this thread's topic anyway and it was a cheaper blow than I am normally willing to deal.. Thank you for pointing that out and letting me see that.
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Re: plan for [External] items?

Postby JustOff » Tue Mar 07, 2017 3:42 pm

Let's skip misunderstandings and discuss possible answer to the problem raised by topic.
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Re: plan for [External] items?

Postby intika » Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:20 pm

Lootyhoof wrote:
Matt A Tobin wrote:
JustOff wrote:
Moonchild wrote:
joe04 wrote:


Hello all :)

i have some ideas to discuss about the subject (those are just ideas ^^)
(note : sorry if i may include my self as contributor or part of the thing but it's open and community driven right ?! lol)

- 1 Porting Request : First, i think we should have a section on the main site where any user could ask devs over here to port a specific (not compatible) extension to palemoon let say we would have a section on the main site with some explanation and a redirection to a forum "request section", devs (me included) would satisfy requests when possible, most of time just tiny changes are needed, of course we would respect the process of "Pull request" / "Fork" / "Contacting dev" / "Etc" but the advantage would be the ease and accessibility for non dev user

- 2 Addons Page Expansion : It's obvious that for the moment we are in kind of "Wait and see" regarding "https://addons.mozilla.org" but as the PM project is growing palemoon should have a way more rich addons page, i think a team should be assigned to the task of porting most used addons (contactings dev/forking etc...) we should discuss the exact process to follow, and may be create a team for that, (i am willing to help, i already started ^^)

- 3 What if Mozilla shutdown old extensions on "addons.mozilla.org" ??? : As already said in this topic we should at least have a backup of that site, i managed to do one my self, using "HTTrack Website Copier" it's still downloading (elapsed time 8h - current size 5,7 Gb - simultaneous connection set to 4 - my network speed is 100MBPS - 2154 xpi files and 60500 web files downloaded by now) i setup the capture to get xpi, you just need to add *.xpi to the capture project as file to save, and that's it !, capture done it's no more complicated... any way i think by tomorrow i will have a full capture with all addons etc. (i am not willing to publish or to do any right violation but i keep a copy in case of...)
Mozilla site seems to hold 18526 extensions

- 4 PaleMoon Website ? : i have a mitigated feeling about palemoon site, i think the website need some modern design and should reflect an opensource community driven project like firefox, plus the site should also high light the features... in my "personal opinion" the site look like a private company promoting some old closed source software ... i think the marketing have a lot to give to palemoon... some example website : firefox - cyberfox - opera - waterfox

- 5 Future investment ? : i don't know how much are palemoon income, but i think the project should have a bigger objective let say beat chrome in the market share, if we never think of that, we will never reach a considerable goal and market share, the focus determine the direction, if the focus is just to keep geeks having their extensions working we will not go far away... i am talking about that because amazing work had been done to the core engine, amazing stuff had been done to the browser, palemoon work correctly it's faster than firefox it's secure etc... so the potential is huge !!!!
Keeping things basic the idea here is to make some investment for the growth, depending if the income are capable to handle a dev team or so...

- 5 Pale Moon Icon ? : am i the only one thinking that palemoon icon should have a better style ? the current one is nice but it could be amazing

What do you think ?
Last edited by intika on Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: plan for [External] items?

Postby kizo07 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:06 pm

I think this proves my thoughts I had a very long time. Extensions connecting people! ;)

Coming together is a beginning; keeping together is progress; working together is success. That's how evolution works.

intika, nice ideas/sugestions. Thanks for specifying!
(and thanks to Joe too)
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Re: plan for [External] items?

Postby GreenGeek » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:04 am

intika wrote:- 1 Porting Request :


You'll be flooded with requests unless there is some way to filter or prioritize the requests. That's not easy because nobody agrees with anybody. Every user thinks every little 2bit piece of crappy code they use is a life or death necessity: " If [user's fav. ext.] doesn't work on PM [latest ver] I'll give up and use [Firefox|Chrome] :evil: (stomping feet/pounding fist).

The other stuff you mention is already being worked on or not that important.

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Re: plan for [External] items?

Postby 0strodamus » Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:22 am

intika wrote:
- 5 Pale Moon Icon ? : am i the only one thinking that palemoon icon should have a better style ? the current one is nice but it could be amazing

What do you think ?

Yes, you're the only one.
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Re: plan for [External] items?

Postby deb00t » Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:37 am

Addon developer here. The main concern for me, considering the addon's availability on Palemoon addons site are - compatibility and the update feature.
I've stumbled over some minor failures, trying to install and run the addon under Palemoon - mostly features that have been recently removed/changed in Gecko engine (like moving the Console module to another location) or haven't yet/maybe won't be implemented in Goana (some ES6 deprecations and new stuff) - might elaborate if requested.
After fixing these differences I was fully able to run the addon without any noticable glitches (haven't dug very deep, but overall testing of features went fine).

The addon is (ofc) currently hosted at AMO, unlisted however. Users can download it from http://www.cyclone3.org, but the addon is being maintained through AMO - new releases, update rdf, and stuff.

I need to figure out the update process - uploading the addon to Palemoon addons, ideally with automatic rdf file update - we were updating rdf files on our server manually in the beginning, had to switch to AMO because of signing and approval changes in Firefox. I would like to test this through the Palemoon addons site - the whole process:
1. Uploading the xpi (+ mandatory manifests for Palemoon)
2. installing it in Palemoon
3. uploading a new version.
4. auto-update in Palemoon through update.rdf.

The changes in code required for Palemoon aren't breaking the addon in Firefox, so I could push them to AMO and try to install from there, but it wouldn't test what I need.

Also, is Palemoon planning nanny the users by approving addons, or their new versions, respectively? We've had to change multiple issues because of Firefox's policies - like mixing chrome-located html file with a remote api link (google maps location finder).


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