Pale Moon forum

Yeah, we have to try and remember to give those a chance.

Well, I joined the project for the Mac port for a number of reasons. I like the product... it embodies a number of design decisions I like... that Mozilla had abandoned. I also want to keep a modern browser running on old versions of MacOS. So my efforts have bore both of those fruits so far, keeping a browser I like running on new versions of MacOS and keeping old versions of MacOS supported with a good browser. If the main team is going to go out of their way to make it hard for me to keep doing Mac versions... either to spite me... or for perceived technical reasons then it will in fact become a waste of time for me. If that happens I will move over to another project that actually welcomes my efforts. I'll port the stuff I don't have in those other browsers over from Pale Moon and proceed on a more welcoming project. I'm really hoping though that I can just keep doing what I have been doing in peace however.

dbsoft wrote: ↑

2021-03-11, 13:24

I'm really hoping though that I can just keep doing what I have been doing in peace however.

If that was true then what went down wouldn't have in the way it did. You're not kidding anyone.

Tobin, again you can stop posting at me... I won't respond to anything you say... unless it is "I'm sorry"

Don't give me orders. I shall speak to whomever I see fit.

dbsoft wrote: ↑

2021-03-11, 13:24

If the main team is going to go out of their way to make it hard for me to keep doing Mac versions... either to spite me... or for perceived technical reasons then it will in fact become a waste of time for me. If that happens I will move over to another project that actually welcomes my efforts.

I'm sorry but please don't try to pretend your efforts weren't welcomed. We went out of our way to make it as easy as possible to make these Mac builds happen. Should I remind you that the "Golden" beta branding was created explicitly for you? Or the fact that we've made changes to theming, and that we've had both hands outstretched to you (and those before you) to try and make Official Mac releases a thing?

Even suggesting that we'd do anything out of spite in this context is something I personally take offence to so please don't try to present things completely opposed to what they are.

That has nothing to do with the project being welcoming or inclusive. You shouldn't ignore what I explained in the announcement about discontinuing Mac.

As I also clearly indicated in my announcement the main reasons for discontinuing Mac in the platform, and that if you want to have a basis to continue building on Mac that you should be forking the platform now. It won't be any harder to build future versions for Mac based on the current code than it has been so far, but it will have to be a platform fork as we will, of course, remove obsolete code from the tree for platforms we no longer support. We will make a start with that soon. That is not "making it harder" as a goal in itself which you seem to be hinting at here, but rather the inevitable result of removing the complexity in many parts of the tree that is no longer necessary without Mac support. Expecting to continue "business as usual" without making a fork or any effort to retain Mac code yourself to work from is unrealistic and something that will lead to your disappointment.

So the choice is yours: Fork now and continue Mac builds based on your fork of the platform and application code using your own branding, or switch to something else to focus on.

dbsoft wrote: ↑

2021-03-11, 14:27

Tobin, again you can stop posting at me... I won't respond to anything you say.

Well, you just did - instead of ignoring as you said you would.
He's free to post - whether you agree with it or not and whether you want to see it or not.

Moonchild wrote: ↑

2021-03-11, 14:35

I'm sorry but please don't try to pretend your efforts weren't welcomed. We went out of our way to make it as easy as possible to make these Mac builds happen. Should I remind you that the "Golden" beta branding was created explicitly for you? Or the fact that we've made changes to theming, and that we've had both hands outstretched to you (and those before you) to

I didn't mean to sound like in the past you weren't welcoming, I am sorry if it came out that way. I appreciate you bringing me in to work on it and all the help you gave with my patches and figuring out the issues with the Mac version.

Just saying, if you start removing Mac stuff immediately, it would seem like you are trying to kill a fully functional Mac port for no good reason.

Moonchild wrote: ↑

2021-03-11, 14:35

Well, you just did - instead of ignoring as you said you would.

I responded to his act of posting not to anything he said, hoping to discourage him from trying to stir things up.

dbsoft wrote: ↑

2021-03-11, 14:44

Just saying, if you start removing Mac stuff immediately, it would seem like you are trying to kill a fully functional Mac port for no good reason.

So you're saying we should use some arbitrary delay instead of whenever we get around to simplifying the code when it's convenient for our schedule (which will be soon)? And when, pray tell, would be "acceptable" then in your PoV?

Also, "for no good reason"?... I clearly explained the two most important good reasons in my announcement.
You can fork later, too, but you'll just make it more difficult on yourself.

Well, I'd say as it becomes necessary... when there is an overhaul of a subsystem that would cause increased complexity.

Also if you are intent on killing it completely, then I'd ask that you give me maybe 3-6 months or something to work on transitioning stuff to another project so I can have a place for the orphaned Mac users that had been using Pale Moon to go.

You don't seem to understand how intertwined all this is. the Mac code being there causes increased complexity for just about everything.
As suggested check the code cross reference for the various preprocessor defines and you might get some notion.

Moonchild wrote: ↑

2021-03-11, 15:17

You don't seem to understand how intertwined all this is. the Mac code being there causes increased complexity for just about everything.
As suggested check the code cross reference for the various preprocessor defines and you might get some notion.

I have some notion, but just because there is complexity somewhere... it only matters when you touch that piece for an important change... which is what I was saying about when it becomes necessary. And where there are those #ifdefs there are usually ones for other platforms as well and removing ONE of them doesn't necessarily reduce the complexity.

Nope, sorry. I disagree. There's already way too much piecemeal stuff that's been going on, and I don't plan to delay this any more than necessary as it affects everything. The #ifdefs are only the tip of the iceberg. So i strongly recommend you fork now and keep an eye on commits you may want in your fork. Mac also isn't like any other platform that shares more universal code. but i guess you won't know that unless you actually look at what we have.

Long-term removal "as-and-when" will just make a total mess of our tree. I'm not accepting that.

Lets see

GTK Widget 447:
http://xref.palemoon.org/moonchild-cent ... ld-central

Cocoa Widget 109:
http://xref.palemoon.org/moonchild-cent ... ld-central

XP_WIN Over 1000:
http://xref.palemoon.org/moonchild-cent ... ld-central

XP_MACOSX Over 1000:
http://xref.palemoon.org/moonchild-cent ... ld-central

XP_UNIX 631:
http://xref.palemoon.org/moonchild-cent ... ld-central

XP_LINUX 71:
http://xref.palemoon.org/moonchild-cent ... ld-central

Not sure I am seeing Mac being more complicated than the others.

Are you gonna bicker all day long about this shit? We will decide collectively as leaders and members of our projects and in our pseudo-alliance what is necessary what is too complex and should be removed from the platform and our respective projects. YOU no longer have a say in that because YOU chose to be put separate from the collective.

Go forth in your projects and leave us with ours.

We're done here.