Pale Moon x86-64 SSE2/AVX2

For contributed third party builds not necessarily configured like the main product.
e.g. AVX builds, SSE builds, Pandora builds.
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Nuck-TH
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Re: Pale Moon x86-64 SSE2/AVX2

Unread post by Nuck-TH » 2024-12-28, 09:11

I'd be more logical to just disable core with damaged AVX circuity, than cripple whole CPU.
But it is Intel, they love to disable features because they love their customers, and they don't want to disable cores as they nowdays market "MOAR CORES".

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Re: Pale Moon x86-64 SSE2/AVX2

Unread post by Moonchild » 2024-12-28, 09:18

Nuck-TH wrote:
2024-12-28, 09:11
I'd be more logical to just disable core with damaged AVX circuity, than cripple whole CPU.
Depends on what the issue is. If it's a systemic issue with their design...
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Re: Pale Moon x86-64 SSE2/AVX2

Unread post by mr tribute » 2025-01-27, 18:20

I have a mini-PC that I bought new in 2023 (see below). It’s nothing special, but it runs Chrome and Brave (Windows and Linux) with great performance (real world casual browsing). Windows 11 works great. Virtual machines (VirtualBox) is what I have mostly used this PC for.

So I wondered why I couldn’t run Pale Moon. Updates weren’t delivered. I finally updated through winget, but Pale Moon wouldn’t start. I later updated through winget yet another time, but was then met with a message about lacking AVX support.

I realize this isn’t top notch hardware, but it is strange that it is capable of running Windows 11, Chrome and Brave without hiccups, but it can’t run Pale Moon.

The Pale Moon devs have already explained that Pale Moon doesn’t target low-end hardware, but I thought this was precisely what was lacking in the “browser market”.

Anyway, thanks for the SSE2 builds. Pale Moon is a nice browser. Good to be back.

Code: Select all

Cores	4
Threads	4
Name	Intel Celeron N5095
Code Name	Jasper Lake
Package	Socket 1338 FCBGA
Technology	10nm
Specification	Intel Celeron N5105 @ 2.00GHz
Family	6
Extended Family	6
Model	C
Extended Model	9C
Stepping	0
Revision	A0/A1
Instructions	MMX, SSE, SSE2, SSE3, SSSE3, SSE4.1, SSE4.2, Intel 64, NX, VMX, AES
Virtualization	Supported, Enabled
Hyperthreading	Not supported
Fan Speed	2102 RPM
Bus Speed	99.8 MHz
Stock Core Speed	2000 MHz
Stock Bus Speed	100 MHz

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Re: Pale Moon x86-64 SSE2/AVX2

Unread post by Moonchild » 2025-01-27, 19:04

mr tribute wrote:
2025-01-27, 18:20
The Pale Moon devs have already explained that Pale Moon doesn’t target low-end hardware
That's an over-simplification. The thing that is the problem here seems to be that Intel explicitly excluded AVX on ultra-low-power and some embedded systems processors, despite . They simply aren't desktop parts (Tremont is SoC material). Pale Moon runs just fine on low-end desktop hardware otherwise.
mr tribute wrote:
2025-01-27, 18:20
I thought this was precisely what was lacking in the “browser market”.
Apparently not because you yourself see that it runs Chromium-based browsers.
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Re: Pale Moon x86-64 SSE2/AVX2

Unread post by mr tribute » 2025-01-28, 01:39

Moonchild wrote:
2025-01-27, 19:04
That's an over-simplification. The thing that is the problem here seems to be that Intel explicitly excluded AVX on ultra-low-power and some embedded systems processors, despite . They simply aren't desktop parts (Tremont is SoC material). Pale Moon runs just fine on low-end desktop hardware otherwise.
True. The problem is that mobile Celeron “N” series SoCs are very common in cheap laptops. Almost all of them lack AVX support.

250 million PCs sold each year during the last 10 years. Average AMD share 30 % during this period. Intel sold 250 x 10 x 0.7 million PCs = 1.75 billion PCs during this period.

Assume 10 % of all Intel PCs sold worldwide the last 10 years are cheap laptops with mobile Celeron “N” series SoCs. This gives us 175 million PCs. Lets say 50 % of those are still active. This is why Google “cares” about this segment.

Should I care? Probably not. I just wanted to post the numbers.
Moonchild wrote:
2025-01-27, 19:04
Apparently not because you yourself see that it runs Chromium-based browsers.
Some/many of the cheap Intel “N” series laptops are lacking RAM. People on Linux forums often look for a “lightweight” browser, meaning a browser that consumes less RAM than a Chromium based browser. This is where single process Pale Moon could fill a niche, I believe.

I respect the decision to go AVX, but fear it might impact the project negatively since future users/contributors might be sitting in front of an Intel “N” series laptop looking for a lightweight browser.

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Re: Pale Moon x86-64 SSE2/AVX2

Unread post by moonbat » 2025-01-28, 04:32

mr tribute wrote:
2025-01-28, 01:39
I respect the decision to go AVX, but fear it might impact the project negatively since future users/contributors might be sitting in front of an Intel “N” series laptop looking for a lightweight browser.
How many of these future users do you assume would exclusively be using a crippled Intel processor and why is in Pale Moon's benefit to cater to them? Anyone who assumes that it is meant to be a 'lightweight' browser for old CPUs or 'old Firefox with permanent support for all abandoned legacy extensions' is only deluding themselves.

Unfortunately who tf even bothers to read anything anymore :roll: .
You discover a new browser (or any piece of software), won't you spend a few minutes on its website to see what it is about, what it explicitly supports and does not support? :coffee:
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Re: Pale Moon x86-64 SSE2/AVX2

Unread post by Kris_88 » 2025-01-28, 12:26

moonbat wrote:
2025-01-28, 04:32
How many of these future users do you assume would exclusively be using a crippled Intel processor and why is in Pale Moon's benefit to cater to them?
As far as I understood from various sources, AVX instructions caused local overheating of the crystal and therefore the clock frequency was forced to decrease, which negated the benefit of these instructions. Also, for processors with a low TDP, when executing AVX instructions, it was difficult to ensure power consumption within the specified limit. That is, we are not talking about defective chips or defective cores, but about the limit of power consumption and heat dissipation.
And, for me, for example, it is important to use a computer with low power consumption, since my computer is on 24/7 and I have a significant reduction in electricity bills (and, yes, this is verified).
As far as I understand, users like me are not interesting to the Pale Moon developers. And I, of course, reciprocate.

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Re: Pale Moon x86-64 SSE2/AVX2

Unread post by Moonchild » 2025-01-28, 13:00

Kris_88 wrote:
2025-01-28, 12:26
As far as I understand, users like me are not interesting to the Pale Moon developers.
I think you're reading way too much into things and/or conveniently ignore the process I went through to decide on how best to address the performance issues with the modern web in our engine.
And I, of course, reciprocate.
Or, you can use a build that suits your needs like Nuck's, instead of complaining that the world isn't perfectly catered to you.
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Re: Pale Moon x86-64 SSE2/AVX2

Unread post by Kris_88 » 2025-01-28, 13:58

Moonchild wrote:
2025-01-28, 13:00
... I went through to decide on how best to address the performance issues with the modern web in our engine.
It's great that you cared about performance. The problem is that on my computer this performance dropped to zero. And you did not provide compatible builds. As for third-party builds, we have already discussed some aspects and problems of such a solution and I will not repeat myself...
Moonchild wrote:
2025-01-28, 13:00
, instead of complaining that the world isn't perfectly catered to you.
Oh, no, the whole world is obviously not to blame here.
The problem is with the Pale Moon developers and with me. In the fact that I hoped for something that should not have been hoped for, as it turns out.

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Re: Pale Moon x86-64 SSE2/AVX2

Unread post by Moonchild » 2025-01-28, 14:04

Off-topic:
Kris_88 wrote:
2025-01-28, 13:58
The problem is ... you did not provide compatible builds.
The problem is ultimately that you aren't flexible enough to understand I can't personally build everything possible under the sun. And that you don't understand the concept of compromise, or that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Let's not further pollute this release topic with this unreconcilable difference though - if you have more to discuss with me, PM me.
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Re: Pale Moon x86-64 SSE2/AVX2

Unread post by Nuck-TH » 2025-01-28, 16:42

Kris_88 wrote:
2025-01-28, 13:58
It's great that you cared about performance. The problem is that on my computer this performance dropped to zero. And you did not provide compatible builds. As for third-party builds, we have already discussed some aspects and problems of such a solution and I will not repeat myself...
Well, as we already discussed, build one yourself.

You know, when i wanted(not even needed) AVX2 build to see it it will net anything i didn't go around whining for someone to do it, but took simple instructions from dev site plus some asking around and did it myself.
And 5 more that i don't really need. AVX then because it made sense, SSE2 now because i promised. And 4 linux ones because, while didn't yet migrated there, i feel for it.
All it costs me is odd 2 hours of machine time that doesn't even lock me out from using computer.

What's your excuse? Get a life already.

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Re: Pale Moon x86-64 SSE2/AVX2

Unread post by moonbat » 2025-01-29, 04:30

Kris_88 wrote:
2025-01-28, 13:58
The problem is with the Pale Moon developers and with me
What is the problem here when Nuck-TH is already providing a build that would cater to non AVX processors? :wtf:
There's several such builds that Moonchild doesn't make himself because he lacks the resources and time to do so - special mention for dbsoft's Mac build which provides the entirety of PM's Mac OS support. People are happily using these builds and working with their creators to resolve issues. So again, what is preventing you from doing what they do?
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Re: Pale Moon x86-64 SSE2/AVX2

Unread post by UCyborg » 2025-01-30, 08:05

It's still relatively lightweight browser compared to other monstrosities out there. Not necessarily fit for very slow CPUs, but in my case, it's one of the few with decent startup time also in case its files are not already all prefetched and precached or whatever.

ChromeZillas take forever to load initially here, and even then there's some delay before the tab loads after browser window shows.

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Re: Pale Moon x86-64 SSE2/AVX2

Unread post by frostknight » 2025-02-01, 02:37

Moonchild wrote:
2025-01-28, 13:00
Or, you can use a build that suits your needs like Nuck's, instead of complaining that the world isn't perfectly catered to you.
Palemoon is fine to me, unbranded at least. (My system doesn't use dbus)
Kris_88 wrote:
2025-01-28, 12:26
And, for me, for example, it is important to use a computer with low power consumption, since my computer is on 24/7 and I have a significant reduction in electricity bills (and, yes, this is verified).
As far as I understand, users like me are not interesting to the Pale Moon developers. And I, of course, reciprocate.
Thankfully not all users of palemoon are the usual computer user. I think linux users of palemoon probably are more in percentage vs percentage of windows palemoon users.

But that is just me. Feel free to show me otherwise.
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Re: Pale Moon x86-64 SSE2/AVX2

Unread post by Nuck-TH » 2025-02-08, 14:35

33.6 builds are finally done.

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Re: Pale Moon x86-64 SSE2/AVX2

Unread post by back2themoon » 2025-02-08, 16:18

Many thanks, again, for providing these and keeping up. :clap:

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