32bit and gtk2 builds for Debian/Bookworm

[wmlive]

Sadly, the wonderful Debian package builds by Steven Pusser (thanks a lot!) unfortunately don't include gtk2 variants anymore and the offiicial provisioning of 32bit builds on behalf of the Pale Moon project also has been discontinued. Looking for alternative browsers offering both gtk2 and 32bit builds for older machines didn't bear any palatable fruits.

This left the continuation of my Live DVD project Window Maker Live in an awkward position because Pale Moon has been its preferred default browser during the last couple of years.
For this reason i finally decided to try building the required Debian/Bookworm packages with the mentioned features enabled, based on Steven Pusser's excellent work. For this the source packages availabe on the MX repo site have been modified to build with gtk2 enabled and were successfully compiled for architectures amd64, arm64, and i386.

The resulting packages can be downloaded from wmlive.rumbero.org/repo/pool/main/p/palemoon/. Please let me know if there are any (unexpected) issues with these packages.

While not promising anything, it is planned to update these packages with newer builds whenever new upstream releases become available, if [unpaid] time permits.

Thanks a lot for creating and maintaining Pale Moon!

[Pentium4User]

Do you really need i686 builds for browsing the current web?
Does your machine really only support i686?

If so, it must be extremely slow.

I have doubt that stevepusser will update the stuff because he did not in the last months and didn't reply to any posts.

[andyprough]

Do you really need i686 builds for browsing the current web?
Does your machine really only support i686?

If so, it must be extremely slow.

I would imagine that @wmlive knows the audience that the Window Maker Live distro is made for. Window Maker is the kind of minimal window manager that's favored by a lot of people that use old hardware and/or 32-bit packages.

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I have doubt that stevepusser will update the stuff because he did not in the last months and didn't reply to any posts.

I don't think that Steve's former repo on the OpenSUSE Build Service is building properly any longer. Steve is still putting his Pale Moon builds on his MX Linux repository though. I created a how-to on using the MX repository with other Debian-based distros if you like: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=31560

And I don't think that Steve is abandoning Pale Moon by not currently being active on this forum. We need to keep in mind that he's responsible for the hugely popular MX Linux distro which gets millions of downloads, and he is responsible for support on MX's extremely active user forum. If any of us ever really need to reach Steve, I have an old MX Linux forum account and can probably private message him for you, or anyone else can go to the MX Linux forum and create a member account and open up a support thread.

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All that being said, if you are using 64-bit packages, the best repo right now for Debian-based distros is the one by Pale Moon forum member Viet Kannegieser: https://kannegieser.net/palemoon/
It's much easier to use on Debian-based distros than Steve's. [Except MX Linux and antiX Linux, where Steve's Pale Moon builds are a one-click install]

This new repo by @wmlive rounds it out - now all Debian-based distro users have their choice of 32-bit and 64-bit packages with GTK3 & GTK2 between @wmlive's 32-bit and 64-bit (and ARM) GTK2 Window Maker Live repo, @Viet Kannegieser's 64-bit GTK2 & GTK3 Pale Moon repo, and @Steve Pusser's 32-bit and 64-bit (and ARM) GTK3 MX Linux repo. All bases now appear to be covered.

[moonbat]

However, if you are using 64-bit packages, the best repo right now for Debian-based distros is the one by Pale Moon forum member Viet Kannegieser: https://kannegieser.net/palemoon/

As he confirmed, his version continues to include the (redundant for a repository derived installation) built in updater, which will fail with insufficient privileges unless you turn it off.
The MX repo works great and doesn't have the updater, just like Steve's original OpenSUSE repo.

[andyprough]

As he confirmed, his version continues to include the (redundant for a repository derived installation) built in updater, which will fail with insufficient privileges unless you turn it off.
The MX repo works great and doesn't have the updater, just like Steve's original OpenSUSE repo.

True. It's just that the complexity of getting Steve's MX repo working on a non-MX system is very high. What is it, like 15-20 steps, whereas getting @Viet's repo working is about 3 steps. If I hadn't already added Steve's repo to my system then I would just use @Viet's, and I would use the PM updater fail as a reminder that I need to apt upgrade to get the newest Pale Moon. That's kind of a bonus actually.

[Pentium4User]

Including the internal updater in DEB packages is a really, really bad idea.
If you run it with root privileges, it will create a mess because the version installed and the version the package management knows are different. It also creates conflicts if the internal updater places new files that aren't in the DEB package.

[lesnydziadek]

Do you really need i686 builds for browsing the current web?
Does your machine really only support i686?
If so, it must be extremely slow.

I can't resist, seeing such a rhetorical question .
1. Yes I do. 2.. Yes it does. I have two computers that work perfectly well with everything else I need. I'm not going to junk them only because modern web is screwed up. With pentium3 and athlonXP cpus, which do not support SSE2 instructions, they are unable to run official binaries of any modern browser. I used seamonkey for many years, but they have entered the trap named "rust", so it is over. After a little hacking (or rather reconfiguration) I have compiled palemoon 33.4.1 from the source code. This browser displays correctly many "modern" (= permanently repaired despite not being broken) web pages, which have stopped working with seamonkey 2.49.5, so is OK. Extremely slow? Maybe with some really badly written pages. But you know, I'm an elder man, and patience comes with age .
Just a comment, my build is not for debian.

[Pentium4User]

I also still have such machines, but I also compile myself because I can understand that the amount of such machines is rather low - almost nobody used them anymore and building needs resources...

[Night Wing]

I can't resist, seeing such a rhetorical question .
I have two computers that work perfectly well with everything else I need. I'm not going to junk them only because modern web is screwed up. With pentium3 and athlonXP cpus, which do not support SSE2 instructions, they are unable to run official binaries of any modern browser.

I'm an elder man, and patience comes with age .
Just a comment, my build is not for debian.

I cannot resist.

Like you, at my 74 years of age, I am an elderly man. And you are correct, patience does come with age. But there are two sides to every coin.

Other things come with age like being stubborn, hard headed, glutton for punishment, etc. You do not like the modern web. But you remind me of a person who likes to swim against a very strong rip current. Eventually you will realize if you keep swimming against the current, you will never reach the beach and you will drown.

Your ancient computers, which still work, really cannot handle the modern web. And like the rip current analogy, they will drown (will no longer work in the modern web).

Is the modern web going to cater to your two computers? You and I both know it will not. Combine patience with some common sense and you can keep the modern web, the proverbial barbarians at the gate, from breaching your old castle.

I'll explain below.

At the computer repair shop where I volunteer at, I am always looking on eBay for computer "deals" which the shop can capitalize on. I came across a company who had fifteen used, 64 bit (model dv4-5113cl) HP 14" laptops which had Intel i5 processors in them, processor speed of 2.50, 8 GB's of memory, 250 GB SSD's with Beats audio. These laptops processors could handle SSE2 and AVX. The company wanted $100 for each of them.

The company also had fifteen used, 64 bit (model dv4-5213cl) HP laptops with the same specifications as the dv4-5113cl laptops above. The only difference, these laptops were selling for $110 for each of them.

Our shop sent an email, with our shop's phone number, to the company saying our shop wanted to purchase "ALL" thirty laptops, but we wanted to discuss a "deal" if possible. The company called the shop and the conversation lasted 15 minutes.

The company said the school district where they were located, got new laptops and they just wanted to get rid of these thirty computers. They "dumped" these computers at their company for recycle so their company did not have to shell out any money. The company said they were having a hard time selling these computers because the 5113 laptops came with 64 bit Windows 7 and 5213 laptops came with 64 bit Windows 8.

We offered the company $75 for each computer for a grand total of $2250. The company said the shipping was going to cost us. But the owner of our shop said he had an older gentleman (me) who would drive to them and pick them up. And the gentleman would have $2250 in "cold hard cash" with him for payment. I installed 64 bit Linux Mint with Xfce on them and our shop sold all thirty laptops in a nine month period for $150 each so our shop made a total sale of $4500 for a net profit of $2250.

You can go to eBay and get some great deals on older computers because most people think their six year old computer is an "ancient dinosaur" which will not handle Windows 11. They want the newest "shiny" if you get my drift.

Also you can go to computer repair shops and see if they have any older used computers (desktop or laptop) for resale since people where I live like to get rid of their old computers and give their computers to us to "recycle" and we see if their old computers can be "sold" again after our shop checks them out for resale.

In conclusion. Your older computers cannot handle the modern web using Pale Moon. You should really consider not swimming against a strong rip current because your older computers are really on "life support" medically speaking and it might be time to consider "pulling the plug" on them.

[andyprough]

Including the internal updater in DEB packages is a really, really bad idea.
If you run it with root privileges, it will create a mess because the version installed and the version the package management knows are different. It also creates conflicts if the internal updater places new files that aren't in the DEB package.

Running a graphical browser with a fully engaged javascript engine as root is the really bad idea. If that's your starting point, a lot worse things than bad browser updates are likely to result.

[lesnydziadek]

Like you, at my 74 years of age, I am an elderly man. And you are correct, patience does come with age. But there are two sides to every coin.
Other things come with age like being stubborn, hard headed, glutton for punishment, etc. You do not like the modern web. But you remind me of a person who likes to swim against a very strong rip current.

Perfectly! Some of these attributes are virtues (in reasonable limits) . I'm Polish and didn't understand the idiom "glutton for punishment". Now I do. And my nick may be translated to English "old man from the forest", which means in general an anachronic person .

Eventually you will realize if you keep swimming against the current, you will never reach the beach and you will drown.

I have no choice. There is nearly a monopoly of Microsoft in my country, they even fund computer labs in the schools. If I wouldn't keep swimming against the current, then I would be one of the >people who think their six year old computer is an "ancient dinosaur" which will not handle Windows 11<.

And the gentleman would have $2250 in "cold hard cash" with him for payment. I installed 64 bit Linux Mint with Xfce on them and our shop sold all thirty laptops in a nine month period for $150 each so our shop made a total sale of $4500 for a net profit of $2250.

Then... congratulations! You make a good business with "old" computers and I'm really glad reading that they are not junked. Looks like you are "swimming against the current" as well, and you enjoy it!

In conclusion. Your older computers cannot handle the modern web using Pale Moon. You should really consider not swimming against a strong rip current because your older computers are really on "life support" medically speaking and it might be time to consider "pulling the plug" on them.

As for now, they do - at least the part of modern web I need for daily use (no social media junk). Pale Moon is swimming against the current as well. Looking at the evolution of firefox and later at its "offshoot" - seamonkey, I see the results of efforts of many talented programmers, working hard to make the program more memory hungry and as slow as possible... Every new version always took more RAM and more time to display the same web page. I'm very new to Pale Moon, but i see that some pages work (marginally) slower than with seamonkey-2.49.5, while others are faster (Google maps - c.a. 50% faster!) - without SSE2 instructions. With all pages I have visited to do a comparison, just for curiosity, Pale Moon consumes a little lesser amount of memory, which looks like a miracle!
This browser has some minor glitches, but I can live with them, and the walls of my "old castle" look OK.

[random]

True. It's just that the complexity of getting Steve's MX repo working on a non-MX system is very high.

Interesting. I downloaded the Palemon MX deb package and installed it on Debian 11 / 12. Done. Unfortunately there is no gtk2 version MX.

[wmlive]

The gtk2 based Pale Moon Debian packages at wmlive.rumbero.org/repo/pool/main/p/palemoon/ have been updated to latest version 33.5.0.

[andyprough]

The gtk2 based Pale Moon Debian packages at wmlive.rumbero.org/repo/pool/main/p/palemoon/ have been updated to latest version 33.5.0.

This package by @wmlive is working well for me on a Debian 12 installation. I think @Moonchild should consider adding this to the Contributed Builds page - it gives Debian-based installers for GTK2 for amd64, i386, and for arm64, which fills some areas of need that we have for Debian-based GNU/Linux distributions.

[Moonchild]

Okay

[Moonchild]

The gtk2 based Pale Moon Debian packages at wmlive.rumbero.org/repo/pool/main/p/palemoon/ have been updated to latest version 33.5.0.

Please consider adjusting your directory listing format so people can see the full file names... or provide an index html with proper formatting.

[Night Wing]

I had to edit my post since I get it now.

Why some of you still cling to 32 bit browsers for linux is not going to help. Many distros are dropping 32 bit browsers. Chrome no longer offers 32 bit in Windows or Linux. Even some distros no longer offer 32 bit builds of their distro and Mint is one of them.

[wmlive]

Please consider adjusting your directory listing format so people can see the full file names... or provide an index html with proper formatting.

Should be much better now.
Thanks for the suggestion!

[wmlive]

Why some of you still cling to 32 bit browsers for linux is not going to help. Many distros are dropping 32 bit browsers. Chrome no longer offers 32 bit in Windows or Linux. Even some distros no longer offer 32 bit builds of their distro and Mint is one of them.

This seems to bother you quite a bit although the usage habits of other people surely won't personally affect you in any way.

Just speaking for myself: My daily bread and butter machine is a relatively modern 64bit Thinkpad and it is used exclusively with Linux for basically everything.

But i also still have two 32bit machines which serve their own purposes, and why would i want to have to use an outdated substandard browser on them if an up to date palemoon can be easily compiled for it? There are certainly many more uses for a web browser than just trying to cope with the so called "modern" web. And my use scenario is not determined by what everybody else is using nor what the creators of the "modern" web deem obligatory. The web sites i frequently use don't require any special browser nor CPU capabilities.

The other reason i "still cling to 32bit browsers" is that i maintain a light weight Linux distribution which offers downloads for i386, amd64, and also arm64 packages. Judging by the amount of world wide downloads of the 32bit ISO images there are still quite a few people who still have some use for such older machines, whatever may be their reasons. I don't question that but rather encourage using those old machines until they are not useful for these people's own purposes anymore.

In case somebody's interest has been piqued, here is the link to the distribution's website: wmlive.sourceforge.net. But be warned: This distribution is almost certainly unsuitable for users who are rather inexperienced in UNIX matters, as its operation is beyond the usage conventions of Windows and MacOS. For normal users, it is better to use Mint, MX Linux, Ubuntu, or EndevaourOS instead, where no historically influenced UNIX rough edges are to be expected.

[andyprough]

Even some distros no longer offer 32 bit builds of their distro and Mint is one of them.

You sure about that? Looks like 32-bit to me.