BLOG: Mozilla to deprecate... itself, really.

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Thehandyman1957

Re: BLOG: Mozilla to deprecate... itself, really.

Unread post by Thehandyman1957 » 2015-11-21, 03:24

Ok, so I'm not a developer, and I can't read or write code. ;) But this whole argument about whether Pale Moon will ever be the "New Firefox" is in my humble opinion just foolish. If we could go back in time back to the XP days, most of the I.E. ( Most used browser) people scoffed at Firefox. They simply had no idea how much the ability to make your browser your way would take the internet by storm. And in the beginning it may not have seemed like a lot. But as years passed by Firefox became for most of us the most Awesome browser we had ever seen.

What pray tell made it that way? :?: It was not just the browser it's self. No :!:
It was the ability to make and use add-on's to make it personal, and to do things you could never ever do with I.E. It was a freedom we in I.E. land never knew was even possible.

It reminds me of what this country was like before the first "money for interest" bank notes came along. Just like in those days the economy or shall we say in this day the Internet exploded in growth. A true free market. :thumbup:

But now just like then there came an idea, that control was more important than free market. Because for them, :twisted: there was more money for them if they could control the market. We are seeing the very same thing happen now with the Internet. There are those that decided a long time ago that if they could control the Internet they could be the king money makers. To heck with everyone else. I could show you parallels all day long but you get the idea.

So now we have someone out there willing to give us back the keys to our browsing experience. And not only that but give those who loved the idea of being part of that, the ability to do it again without having to re-write the book.

Just like back in the beginning of the Firefox days I see a light, or spark, of freedom showing in the darkness. And no matter how badly the new Firefox, Chrome controllers try, they will not be able to keep that light from shinning into the very darkest cracks of their kingdom. Those that loved what Firefox brought them will be drawn to this light. Some might take a bit more than others but eventually they will come. Why? :?: Because there are those of us that still love this form of freedom. Freedom to make great add-on's and freedom for us user's to use those great add-on's.

Moonchild has provided us the means to do this. It may take some time, but eventually just like in the old days, Pale Moon will grow. There is simply no other way to see it. Naysayers be silenced. As the Bible says. "Don't despise small beginnings" This may be a small beginning but watch it grow.

As long as Moonchild keeps the helm in the same direction we are sailing for greater waters. :mrgreen:

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Re: BLOG: Mozilla to deprecate... itself, really.

Unread post by LimboSlam » 2015-12-02, 04:34

NotFunny wrote:Well that's good to know, care to name them and the Extensions/Themes in question?
I can't because nothing is official and our talk was casual. Not only that, once I say a name there will be at least one person starting rumors and then will bug the developer about it. So that being said, I'm sorry I won't. I think it's best if the developers come to us on their own without being consistently hounded by us, pestered.

Now besides this, Mozilla is thinking about dropping Thunderbird development, completely. Some rumors have it that the reasoning behind this is because the whole e10s issue with Firefox, and so by doing this they will have a lot more time to work on those time consuming e10s bugs which in overall will help Firefox be more stable, or should I say Chrome-ification.

Yup. Well to know more, read all about it on Ghacks: http://www.ghacks.net/2015/12/01/mozilla-wants-to-drop-thunderbird-completely/
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-P.S. Nice to know somebody is in their right mine and saw that that Add-on Signing is ineffective. Read here: http://danstillman.com/2015/11/23/firefox-extension-scanning-is-security-theater?firefox-against-censorship
With Pale Moon by my side, surfing the web is quite enjoyable and takes my headaches away! :)
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Re: BLOG: Mozilla to deprecate... itself, really.

Unread post by Moonchild » 2015-12-02, 12:09

LimboSlam wrote:I can't because nothing is official and our talk was casual. Not only that, once I say a name there will be at least one person starting rumors and then will bug the developer about it. So that being said, I'm sorry I won't. I think it's best if the developers come to us on their own without being consistently hounded by us, pestered.
Thank you :thumbup:
"If you want to build a better world for yourself, you have to be willing to build one for everybody." -- Coyote Osborne
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Sasparilla

Re: BLOG: Mozilla to deprecate... itself, really.

Unread post by Sasparilla » 2015-12-02, 19:32

Been with the browser line since Netscape but the XUL XBL announcement convinced me that Mozilla management has lost their minds - they're really going to destroy themselves (at some point marketshare will sink so low they won't get search tie in revenues that are adequate then maybe they'll pull a Opera). Then Mozilla just announced they're going to kill Thunderbird as well.

Thank goodness (and everyone here) that PaleMoon is available - my guess is that you'll get more and more people coming over.

Am shifting over my (and relatives) Windows machines, but am stuck on the OS X machines.
Go_To wrote:
LimboSlam wrote: Unfortunately, Ghostery and Greasemonkey both said they were incompatible. Hopefully I can edit their source files to hack the allowed version numbers.
Last version that is compatible with Pale Moon is 5.4.4.1, here's a link of the previous versions: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefo ... /versions/
Thanks for the link Go_To, I was still creeping back to Firefox for ghostery's services....now that its working in PaleMoon I feel so much better.

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Re: BLOG: Mozilla to deprecate... itself, really.

Unread post by Falna » 2015-12-03, 02:37

Off-topic:
Was always somewhat dubious about Ghostery - dropped it when they added their product promotion facility - http://www.ghacks.net/2015/09/16/ghostery-sneaks-in-new-promotional-messaging-system/

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Re: BLOG: Mozilla to deprecate... itself, really.

Unread post by NickFortune » 2015-12-07, 17:00

Falna wrote:
Off-topic:
Was always somewhat dubious about Ghostery - dropped it when they added their product promotion facility - http://www.ghacks.net/2015/09/16/ghostery-sneaks-in-new-promotional-messaging-system/
I've been using ghostery for a long time and I've never seen that screen. Can't see it now either and just updated my addons.

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Re: BLOG: Mozilla to deprecate... itself, really.

Unread post by Toa-Nuva » 2015-12-07, 17:54

The "feature" mentioned in that article was added in Ghostery version 5.4.6, which is considered incompatible with Pale Moon. PM will never update to a newer version than 5.4.4.1, unless you consciously disable addon compatibility checks and manually install a newer version of Ghostery.

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Re: BLOG: Mozilla to deprecate... itself, really.

Unread post by LimboSlam » 2015-12-23, 10:00

This is vary sad what Martin at Ghacks had to report/write: http://www.ghacks.net/2015/12/23/mozilla-needs-to-focus-add-ons/. But it's the hard truth. Is there any other alternatives? How long can Firefox users run from this, until 2020 ultimately.
With Pale Moon by my side, surfing the web is quite enjoyable and takes my headaches away! :)
God is not punishing you, He is preparing you. Trust His plan, not your pain.#‎TrentShelton #‎RehabTime

BazBear

Re: BLOG: Mozilla to deprecate... itself, really.

Unread post by BazBear » 2016-01-19, 17:09

snertev wrote:
Moonchild wrote::) Maybe you don't realize but Pale Moon's customizability is because the user interface is not native code. Pale Moon's user interface is primarily built using XUL and JavaScript (remember xulrunner? You could build any application on the framework with any looks using XUL). Because XUL is a simpler markup language that doesn't try to be a Swiss army knife like HTML5 is, though, it is blazingly fast when used properly.
Going to native code will inherently mean entirely losing the customizability and cross-platform nature of the UI we have now.
I Know all this. :D

But it isn't the current plan of Firefox.

They don't consider customization (and cross-platform too, IMO) important anymore.

It's a change of their development paradigm that I don't like, for sure.

And like me, a lot of their users that are less and less interested in a browser that has all defects (or, let's say, less performing qualities) of a nonnative and customizable GUI and few or none of its advantages.

According to their new paradigm, a native GUI is the right choice. However, others (i.e. Chrome) are on that path since long time and it's difficult Mozilla may have any relevance in that market for "the average Joe", while spoiling its base of "advanced users" that, among other things, were often contributors to the code base too.
I just installed your browser last night (on a Lubuntu 16.04 Alpha 1 system I'm testing no less - it's running superbly, only requiring me to find a few work arounds, but those issues were issues with the Lubuntu Alpha, not PM itself - I wll be installing it on my main 14.04 system later today), and PM is just what I've been sort of looking for ever since FF went to that stupid Analaulis GUI, or whatever it's called. ;) This latest move by Mozilla, as of v. 44 IIRC, will kill support for some of my favorite extensions, and as of that version even the ability to tweak the config file as a work around will be eliminated. Thanks Moonchild!:)

Thehandyman1957

Re: BLOG: Mozilla to deprecate... itself, really.

Unread post by Thehandyman1957 » 2016-01-20, 02:46

Welcome to Pale Moon and this forum BazBear. Glad to have you here. :thumbup:

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Re: BLOG: Mozilla to deprecate... itself, really.

Unread post by 1210_bex » 2016-02-17, 01:21

Toa-Nuva wrote:The "feature" mentioned in that article was added in Ghostery version 5.4.6, which is considered incompatible with Pale Moon. PM will never update to a newer version than 5.4.4.1, unless you consciously disable addon compatibility checks and manually install a newer version of Ghostery.
Where exactly is the Pale Moon 'addon compatibility check' that you mention?

On Options->Security, there is a 'Warn me when sites try to install add-ons' that can be checked, and if checked, one can list exception URL's. Is this what you are talking about?


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Re: BLOG: Mozilla to deprecate... itself, really.

Unread post by Toa-Nuva » 2016-02-17, 16:38

No, there is no visible option to disable the compatibility check. The easiest way to disable it is by installing this addon: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefo ... atibility/ Note that you will still have to install new versions of your addons manually - your browser will never automatically update your addons to a newer, incompatible version, even with the compatibility check disabled.

The compatibility check exists for a reason, though, and you should not disable it without a very good reason. As for Ghostery, I just tested the newest version (5.4.10) and found that it does not work in Pale Moon anymore, even with disabled compatibility check. It's best to stay with the latest compatible version, which is 5.4.4.1.

macadoum

Re: BLOG: Mozilla to deprecate... itself, really.

Unread post by macadoum » 2016-04-13, 11:04

This post concern the re-fork project. Not sure this topic is the right place, sorry. Not to re-launch a debate here, just a comment from a non-dev guy as I cannot respond to the original post.

Servo, XUL and now Tofino. For me, Mozilla makes clear that they want to start a whole new browser. The little "traditional" firefox will be deprecated by a mid-term schedule. Re-fork means fork something that is already dead. Palemoon is for now taking a new direction that really differ from the firefox mess, re-fork is an eternal restarting of the same things and confirm the idea that palemoon is just a "light" or a "nostalgic" firefox.
If Mozilla cut firefox support in one or two or even five years, the same question will appear : continue with an outdated core incompatible with current web or fork the neo-firefox ? This is a never ending story.
And more, a lot "current web" technologies are just fashionable clothes that turn into derision six months later. An eventual delay from Palemoon to adopt so-called new standards can even save time from unnecessary development.
I'm not a dev, so this is just my 2 cents opinion on this. :thumbup:

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Re: BLOG: Mozilla to deprecate... itself, really.

Unread post by Moonchild » 2016-04-13, 11:43

macadoum wrote:re-fork is an eternal restarting of the same things
You, sir or madam, have obviously not understood what this re-base is all about, but it seems like most people who have read that thread didn't "get" it. It's not eternal, perpetual, or going to be "done again later". I've clearly stated there that this is a one-time thing, to basically get to the Mozilla code point that still gives us all the tools and web technology that we'd want, without compromising on what Pale Moon is and stands for. It is to get a solid base and fresh boost with accompanying changes in the way we'll handle our work load (more on that later). We've been way past the "let's jump code bases every so often" for years.

Mozilla can continue to deprecate itself. They can switch to whatever shell or back-end they want to use. They can merge with Google Chrome for all I care. It will not influence us.
"If you want to build a better world for yourself, you have to be willing to build one for everybody." -- Coyote Osborne
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Thehandyman1957

Re: BLOG: Mozilla to deprecate... itself, really.

Unread post by Thehandyman1957 » 2016-04-13, 18:31

Moonchild wrote:Mozilla can continue to deprecate itself. They can switch to whatever shell or back-end they want to use. They can merge with Google Chrome for all I care. It will not influence us.
:lol: speaking of which, :mrgreen:

Drums please, http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/04/11 ... is_chrome/

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Re: BLOG: Mozilla to deprecate... itself, really.

Unread post by LimboSlam » 2016-04-14, 01:53

Seriously who names a web engine "Rust??" Well I guess it fits their future, right. :)
With Pale Moon by my side, surfing the web is quite enjoyable and takes my headaches away! :)
God is not punishing you, He is preparing you. Trust His plan, not your pain.#‎TrentShelton #‎RehabTime

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Re: BLOG: Mozilla to deprecate... itself, really.

Unread post by JodyThornton » 2016-04-14, 12:37

It seems to be more hopeless for the crews at the SeaMonkey Council. The mood seems drab on MozillaZine in the SeaMonkey forums. While I use Pale Moon on Windows 8, I still run SeaMonkey on my Precise Puppy Linux on my old Dell notebook, but whenever I get a new notebook PC, I'll switch it to Pale Moon as well.

What I wonder about is the future of K-Meleon. That project rose up from the ashes in the last two or so years, after appearing to be a dead project for so long. I wonder now about its future, given Mozilla's new direction.

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Re: BLOG: Mozilla to deprecate... itself, really.

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2016-04-14, 12:52

SeaMonkey has no future. Period. If it continues past the next esr train it will no longer truly be SeaMonkey anymore.. Which is almost worse than death. K-Mellon? Who knows...

half-moon

Re: BLOG: Mozilla to deprecate... itself, really.

Unread post by half-moon » 2016-04-14, 16:18

Mozilla basically just wants to kill anything that isn't Firefox, but they oddly chose to release a a new thunderbird version (even thought they wanted to kill it).
Off-topic:
Matt, I like the new Dalek avatar you have.

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Re: BLOG: Mozilla to deprecate... itself, really.

Unread post by CharmCityCrab » 2016-04-14, 16:39

half-moon wrote:Mozilla basically just wants to kill anything that isn't Firefox, but they oddly chose to release a a new thunderbird version (even thought they wanted to kill it).
Thunderbird is still, I think anyway (Haven't actually checked), the email program of choice for most Linux distributions, bundled in with the operating system, in many cases. It's also likely the number one alternative (In terms of userbase) to Outlook for people on Windows (Definitely the top open-source alternative). Mozilla doesn't want to maintain it anymore, but they also don't want the ill-will associated with just cutting it off and leaving a lot of the open-source community in a bind. A lot of those Linux distros might see something like that and retaliate by reconsidering their default browsers, but, more than that, they are probably concerned about having people not want to volunteer to code or submit patches and fiscal contributions to them in the future because they suddenly cut off something they were depending on that doesn't have any alternatives that most people are aware of.

So, Mozilla is attempting to get some other open-source community to take responsibility for updating Thunderbird, similar to the way Apache took over OpenSource from Oracle, or to get Thunderbird to organize it's own community. My guess is their recent release was a matter of keeping it up to date and serviceable for the next maintainers, a time buying effort, in effect, because they don't have somebody yet.

FossaMail, of course, is an alternative to Thunderbird, but, for whatever reason, the feeling I get is that the power brokers at most Linux distros don't consider it a viable default mail client Don't know *why* they don't, I just get the vibe that they don't) and most Windows users of Thunderbird are unaware of it's existence. One gets the feeling that the Linux distros may fork or sponsor Thunderbird as a joint project before going to FossaMail, for whatever reason.

Personally, I like FossaMail. I'm using FossaMail. I plan to continue liking and using FossaMail- well, at least, provided I can get my Google calendar syncing issues resolved (See FossaMail support forum) or can find an alternate cloud calendar provider that will sync to my phone and my PC (It's not that I like Google Calendar per say, they just seem like the only viable cloud calender that syncs to non-cloud Android and Windows clients). ;) But I just get the sense that a lot of the wider world, even the wider software world, views Thunderbird as the only thing out there for Linux and only non-Outlook thing for Windows- so Mozilla is going to have to be very careful about the way they unspin it in order to avoid backlash.

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