The Windows 10 mega-thread!

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The Windows 10 mega-thread!

Unread postby helloimustbegoing » Sun, 22 Mar 2015, 02:54

I was having a phone conversation with a friend today. He's under the impression that, once Windows 10 is released, that the security updates put out for Windows 7 will only be included within the update from 7 to 10. I told him that can't be true, because then the statement that Windows 7 will be supported until 2020 becomes moot.

Has anyone else heard of such a thing?
Last edited by Moonchild on Sun, 13 Sep 2015, 10:29, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Re-titled the thread for what it's been about.

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Re: Windows 7 updates available only through updating to 10?

Unread postby lyceus » Sun, 22 Mar 2015, 03:37

Actually is true. I saw in slashdot.org that Windows 10 will be offered as a patch. But well, a patch of 2.3 GB will be hard to NOT spot unless you have a 1TB speed line. XD

But if you hide that "patch" you will get your patches as usual. Microsoft is just desperate to change the fact that Windows 7 will become the new Windows XP. Meh, slashdot point to forbes so I post the direct link instead.

Windows 10 Installs Automatically On Windows 7 And Windows 8
http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2015/02/02/windows-10-automatic-install/

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Re: Windows 7 updates available only through updating to 10?

Unread postby Night Wing » Sun, 22 Mar 2015, 04:07

I don't allow any Microsoft updates to automatically install themselves. I choose which updates from Microsoft to install on all four of my computers running Windows 7.

With the above said, there is no way I'd allow Windows 10 on any of my Windows 7 hard drives through Microsoft updates including a patch to Windows 10.
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Re: Windows 7 updates available only through updating to 10?

Unread postby Sob__ » Sun, 22 Mar 2015, 12:41

lobocursor wrote:Microsoft is just desperate to change the fact that Windows 7 will become the new Windows XP.

Or even worse, Windows 10 becoming new Windows 8. It's been out for more than two years and it looks like it's wanted even less than Windows Vista was. You'd think they'd realize that perhaps they might be doing something wrong. Desktop users are crying left and right for old Aero look, old Start menu and such, instead Microsoft keeps adding touch stuff and voice assistants. Windows 10 as free and as easy to get as possible upgrade seems like their only hope to get it a decent market share. And still I'm very curious, how it will turn out.

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Re: Windows 7 updates available only through updating to 10?

Unread postby loxodont » Sun, 22 Mar 2015, 12:53

If that should be true, I see it as a kind of brute force attack and I would switch much earlier than expected to a Linux-only online machine and using Win7 for offline work.
Tho it's interesting to see how MS is shoveling their own grave.

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Re: Windows 7 updates available only through updating to 10?

Unread postby Joel Cairo » Sun, 22 Mar 2015, 13:20

Been running the preview builds for months (though use Windows 7 99% of the time. I consider 7 the high-point of Windows development). Build 9926 in January seemed a serious regression and the first one I've removed within a couple of hours. This week's build 10041 is not really any better. The difficult bit is figuring whether Microsoft are going this way for keeps, or just during the testing. Lots do like it - lots always do - lots liked Vista; but for desktop power users with any pride it is bloody awful! It is hard to know what the worse bit is; the removal of update options is certainly a contender though. You wouldn't think they could seriously consider making that permanent; but then again, since Windows 8...well, removing the Start Menu said it all.

Microsoft don't want power users any more. They want customers who rent space on their cloud, and 'apps' from their Store. I always did feel a little used as one of their legion of unpaid customer support, but also kind of appreciated too. Now it wouldn't surprise me if Technet becomes subscription-only - and cost about the same as MSDN.

The argument for their not planning Windows Updates to be mandatory would be because some of those updates cause serious issues; but I think it is more likely that the flawed patches of recent months are something they didn't envisage, just like they didn't envisage removing the Start Menu with Windows 8 would be a disaster. There was a lot of talk about how 10 was, if you will, 8 done right. I think there is widespread misunderstanding about what that means. My impression - now - is that instead of plunging us into a vat of boiling water, they've opted to try cooking us gently.

There may be people here who think 10 is great. Me, I want fine control.

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Re: Windows 7 updates available only through updating to 10?

Unread postby Supernova » Sun, 22 Mar 2015, 15:16

There is a removal of update options in win 10 ? i.e. ; you can't avoid automatic updates ?
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Re: Windows 7 updates available only through updating to 10?

Unread postby Tharn » Sun, 22 Mar 2015, 15:47

Promises of FPS gains and a lighter OS is what made me finally switch from 7 to 8.1 and well.. those promises are true. I'm looking forward to that trend continuing for Windows 10. A 8.1 refocused on the desktop sounds like a good thing to me and I'm looking forward to it.

That aside, I abhor the idea of 'service lock-in' that MS is pursuing; use their cloud, use their apps and stay logged-on at all times. Let 'em mine you for your data and your private information. But 1) you don't have to use those and 2) as a gamer, you're kind of screwed if you want to pursue technology. DX12 is a Windows 10 exclusive deal.

Metro UI doesn't bother me that much, I can live without a start menu replacement. But what bothers me is that they ported Skype to metro now, raising memory footprint from 60ish to about 100 with zero functionality gains. You can't even use their older versions anymore. Soon Skype 7 will be mandatory. F*** that noise.

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Re: Windows 7 updates available only through updating to 10?

Unread postby LimboSlam » Sun, 22 Mar 2015, 19:14

Agree, for desktop users it's ugly, buggy, confusing and just not needed. But for the laptop, tablet and smartphones users it's great because of the touch compatibility and smooth integration for it (made for it). Not only that, but for those who have a tablet or smartphone it's easy to switchover and adapt/adaption. Especially the Windows Phone users.
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Re: Windows 7 updates available only through updating to 10?

Unread postby Sob__ » Sun, 22 Mar 2015, 19:49

Supernova wrote:There is a removal of update options in win 10 ? i.e. ; you can't avoid automatic updates ?

It's a little messed up. A little more in fact. The nice old Windows Update applet from Control Panel is completely gone. Instead there's a brand new and ugly Metro-style window. There are still some options, but the control where you select how to check/download/install updates is disabled. It says "Some settings are managed by your system administrator". It's probably next step in funny game started in the past by UAC, where you are and aren't admin at the same time, except here it takes more than one click to unlock it. You can change it using MMC and Local Computer Policy, but I don't remember where exactly.
Although I'm not sure how well it works, because even though I set it to "Notify to download", I now clicked "Check for updates" and it got right to downloading and installing them, instead of just showing the list. No idea if it's bug or feature, there days it's hard to tell. I can't remember how it works in automatic mode, when Windows check for updates in background. But I think it behaved correctly. Not that it really means anything, because Microsoft has no problem messing up stuff from build to build. I know it's just preview, but still..

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Re: Windows 7 updates available only through updating to 10?

Unread postby Joel Cairo » Sun, 22 Mar 2015, 23:07

Supernova wrote:There is a removal of update options in win 10 ? i.e. ; you can't avoid automatic updates ?

Yeah. The impression at first - I don't know or recall if they actually said so - was so everybody would be testing the one particular configuration. My take has always been that if we're testing it, we're going to install the patches. They're for fixing bugs and, unlike RTM systems, they'll be generally much more obvious and annoying bugs, so of course we're going to install them. But I don't want them coming down automatically. I install Office 2007 in it, so there are a lot of patches coming down for that and some are pretty big; anyway, taken together it's a few hundred megabytes. My broadband speed is borderline, but a lot of people have slower. Still, for me it's more the principle of it.

So I opened GPEdit and found if you set Automatic Updates policy you could then control WU as before. In January's build 9926 that was no longer available. So I manually added the reg keys and values that previously worked, but they didn't any more. And this is still the case in build 10041. The only option at the moment is whether to allow the downloaded updates to install when Windows thinks best, or at a time you schedule.

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Re: Windows 7 updates available only through updating to 10?

Unread postby New Tobin Paradigm » Sun, 22 Mar 2015, 23:23

Windows as it currently stands is a dead end. This may change but I am not hopeful. Also despite the thread title which doesn't actually make sense.. You will get security updates for Windows 7 until 2020.
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Re: Windows 7 updates available only through updating to 10?

Unread postby Supernova » Mon, 23 Mar 2015, 00:11

Thanks Joel for the explanation. That sounds very bad.
And I share your feeling, Tobin.
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Re: Windows 7 updates available only through updating to 10?

Unread postby helloimustbegoing » Mon, 23 Mar 2015, 00:19

Tobin wrote:
Also despite the thread title which doesn't actually make sense.

I know it doesn't make sense. That's why I wrote in my first post:

I told him that can't be true, because then the statement that Windows 7 will be supported until 2020 becomes moot.

Tobin wrote:
You will get security updates for Windows 7 until 2020.

Thanks for the clear answer . . . I figured that was the case, since like you said, it doesn't make sense otherwise. :thumbup:

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Re: Windows 7 updates available only through updating to 10?

Unread postby lyceus » Mon, 23 Mar 2015, 02:02

Supernova wrote:There is a removal of update options in win 10 ? i.e. ; you can't avoid automatic updates ?


Just select "Show me updated and allow me to install them" when the Windows 10 "Update Patch" shows up, right button and put it as "hidden patch". Voila!

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Re: Windows 7 updates available only through updating to 10?

Unread postby New Tobin Paradigm » Mon, 23 Mar 2015, 02:14

Now when I say Security updates that is precisely what I mean. Depending on JUST how evil Microsoft wants to be this may not include new versions of components like netfx we may be stuck on 4.5 for the end of time only getting sec updates. Or silverlight.. or IE.. etc. Much like Windows XP was. But of course if push comes to shove there are many alternatives. Mono can be used on windows for instance, Pale Moon is an obvious one.. the Silverlight clone could be ported. If the Future of the Windows platform is threatened like I see it being.. A renewed effort of preservationists and computer fundamentalists will take up the slack for the long haul.
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Re: Windows 7 updates available only through updating to 10?

Unread postby Joel Cairo » Mon, 23 Mar 2015, 15:21

lobocursor wrote:
Supernova wrote:There is a removal of update options in win 10 ? i.e. ; you can't avoid automatic updates ?


Just select "Show me updated and allow me to install them" when the Windows 10 "Update Patch" shows up, right button and put it as "hidden patch". Voila!

Such options are no longer available - with Windows Update via Control Panel no longer there. Now you can only get to 'Updates' from the 'Settings' App, where 'Automatic' is the only choice (so, not a choice, obviously). Also there is the check-box for 'Give me updates for other Microsoft products when I update Windows'. An 'Advanced Options' link gives 'Automatic (Recommended)' or 'Notify to schedule restart' and 'Choose how you download updates' gives the options 'Get updates from more than one place' with an on/off switch. 'On' allows 'PCs on my local network' or 'PCs on my local network and PCs on the internet'. And that's it. The remaining Group Policy 'Automatic Updates' setting changes nothing - hence my, in the last build, finding the reg settings, replacing removed keys etc, which also did nothing.

Regardless of whether Microsoft's intention is to permanently remove control over updating, they definitely mean the removal of the Control Panel applet to be. One is tempted to think the reason is for plodding a finger on a tablet or smartphone screen and that along with that goes simplification and getting rid of multiple options (which, put another way, means doing away with having to give any of it any thought longer than, say, desired when walking down the street, or through the Mall, or sitting in the coffee shop engaged in the important stuff like buying something from Windows Store).

Edit: oh yes, now when I open 'Updates' I am immediately given the notification that 'Microsoft Office File Validation Add-in' is ready to install. This 3rd party tool is something I don't and have never wanted. The only option here is to 'Accept and install' or 'Close'. There is no way to refuse it, no way to hide it (what I've been doing for years). If you install it, then immediately uninstall it, then check for updates, down it comes again.

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Re: Windows 7 updates available only through updating to 10?

Unread postby Joel Cairo » Mon, 23 Mar 2015, 19:35

Meanwhile, to respond to the original question: I agree with El Tobin. Despite what I have been saying or implying (of Microsoft's present direction) I think they'd face a shitstorm of a backlash if they tried it. Their 'Lifetime Support' statements are pretty concise and still say that Extended Support (Security Updates at a minimum) for Windows 7 continues until January 14th 2020, in a way that I suspect could see them lose many expensive legal actions:
Microsoft Support Lifecycle policy provides consistent and predictable guidelines for product support availability when a product releases and throughout that product’s life. By understanding the product support available, customers are better able to maximize the management of their IT investments and strategically plan for a successful IT future.

and really alienate a large proportion of their customer base by reneging on the agreement they'd been given to believe they had.

Or they look at the public inertia following the Snowden revelations and think Governments and megacorps can do anything they like and we'll just suck it up.

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Re: Windows 7 updates available only through updating to 10?

Unread postby lyceus » Sat, 28 Mar 2015, 06:19

Joel Cairo wrote:Such options are no longer available - with Windows Update via Control Panel no longer there. Now you can only get to 'Updates' from the 'Settings' App, where 'Automatic' is the only choice (so, not a choice, obviously).


I can just click right the update and hide it. Anyway just imagine in my country were lines are as best at 512mb, trying to download a "patch" of 3GB. Dozens of thousands of Win7 machines trying to install that from M$ servers and not found the file for the clogged servers. IT people @ Microsoft will have nice nights these days. :mrgreen:

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Re: Windows 7 updates available only through updating to 10?

Unread postby Night Wing » Sat, 28 Mar 2015, 12:14

Joel Cairo wrote:
lobocursor wrote:Just select "Show me updated and allow me to install them" when the Windows 10 "Update Patch" shows up, right button and put it as "hidden patch". Voila!

Such options are no longer available - with Windows Update via Control Panel no longer there. Now you can only get to 'Updates' from the 'Settings' App, where 'Automatic' is the only choice (so, not a choice, obviously).


The above is how it is right now in the preview of Windows 10, but that is not how it is in Windows 7. It is changes like this (and other things), is why I prefer Windows 7 over Windows 10.
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