where has Pale Moon gone or going?

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bum_moon

where has Pale Moon gone or going?

Unread post by bum_moon » 2018-11-15, 07:32

Hi
I am a looooooong term user of Pale Moon. I started using PM as it did things no other browser did, was intuitive to use and supported extensions i used every day and to me, were essential. I expounded the benefits of PM to friends and strongly advocated that they should use PM instead of any other browser available.

As PM started changing, some extensions stopped working but i mostly found alternatives, even though the alternatives did not perform as well.
Then i could not do online banking or access government web sites and i had to use an alternate browser, mostly Firefox.

I would really appreciate being educated where PM is going and why. There is obviously some reason & plan by Moonchild but his direction baffles me.
What are the benefits or goals of the changes being made to PM and why?

It has now reached the point where PM is basically not a viable browser for me and every update becomes less usable for me and what i want & need to do. I am reluctant to leave PM but i now see no alternative but to move fully to Firefox as it allows me to do online banking, access govt web sites and i have found extensions that pretty much do what i could do with PM back when it was circa v26.

cheers & thanks

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Re: where has Pale Moon gone or going?

Unread post by Nigaikaze » 2018-11-15, 13:48

bum_moon wrote:I would really appreciate being educated where PM is going and why.
Best place to start with that is the Pale Moon roadmap, here:

http://www.palemoon.org/roadmap.shtml
bum_moon wrote:I am reluctant to leave PM but i now see no alternative but to move fully to Firefox as it allows me to do online banking, access govt web sites and i have found extensions that pretty much do what i could do with PM back when it was circa v26.
This is only your first post here. If you post specific information about what version of Pale Moon you're currently using, and what specific problems you are having with which specific websites, there's a whole community of people here willing to help you solve those problems. That is an alternative you can take advantage of before you move to Firefox. Which, in turn, is your chance to help make Pale Moon better.
Nichi nichi kore ko jitsu = Every day is a good day.

bum_moon

Re: where has Pale Moon gone or going?

Unread post by bum_moon » 2018-11-16, 11:31

Nigaikaze

Thanks vm for your reply.
I am currently using PM v28.1.0 and every update seems to cripple more what i did or could do before. As i wrote previously, i can not do on-line banking or access things i need to do on govt web sites and i have to use Firefox. This happened from memory mid way thru v27. Useful extensions & script i used daily stopped more & more with each update and if alternatives were available that worked with the new PM, they did not work as well or as i wanted. I am not against change but change (for me) has to be an improvement, not the opposite.
PM v26 did everything i wanted, the way i wanted to do it and it did it well.

The only reason i moved on from v26 and early v27 from memory is i was reading in the update notes that security issues in PM were being addressed and/or improved. Obviously banks & govt web sites don't agree and see PM as deficient or using the wrong code or what-ever.

If i was to be assured PM v26 was secure and not open to attack or what-ever, i would happily continue to use PM v26 but i fear this is not the case.

I looked at the PM roadmap link you provided and it was interesting but not totally comprehensible to me.
An analogy. I drive a car & a motorbike. I am a reasonably competent self taught mechanic but when something goes wrong or does not work that is beyond my understanding or capability, i generally seek help or service from those that do know. If this technical help is going to be costly & ongoing, i will likely replace the vehicle with some other that does not have the problem as i would rather get on with driving & riding than dealing with issues.
As well, if the vehicle no longer does what i want or have the feature(s) i want, i will likely (funds available) replace the vehicle.
I regrettably feel i am at both points with PM. Time to replace, move on.

Firefox, right or wrong, lets me do my on-line banking, lets me do my govt web site business, still works with many of the extensions i used in PM and those that don't i have been able to find suitable alternatives without too much effort. PM now, does not. For me it is irrevocably broken. Some comments i have read on-line from various sources mirror my issues so it is not just me who think PM is now broken. PM seems to have become some esoteric browser catering for who?, not the generic browser user imo. PM may do some things better. I don't really care, I want it to do everything, adequately.

I repeat, as a layperson, as browser user, PM does not do it for me any more, and whether i understand or not why PM does not do it for me anymore it's somewhat irrelevant, though i am interested in why but not sufficiently to expend too much time understanding why. If there is a simply explanation as to why PM has gone in the direction it has and why and i can be told simplistically, i am happy to be informed & educated.

once again, thanks & cheers

Ps i will drop in on future PM versions to see whether it works for me as i want. I hope it does.

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Re: where has Pale Moon gone or going?

Unread post by doofy » 2018-11-16, 12:04

bum_moon wrote: If there is a simply explanation as to why PM has gone in the direction it has and why and i can be told simplistically, i am happy to be informed & educated.
I wonder if you have heard of an exciting new browser called "Chrome"?

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Re: where has Pale Moon gone or going?

Unread post by Lucio Chiappetti » 2018-11-16, 12:51

bum_moon wrote:Firefox, right or wrong, lets me do my on-line banking, lets me do my govt web site business, still works with many of the extensions i used in PM and those that don't i have been able to find suitable alternatives without too much effort.
I abandoned FF long ago (28-29 ? anyhow the Australis change) because I did not like their changes and even less their later changes and have been happy with PM, its development and support, including the few extensions I use. I would loath having to use another browser because some sites wrongly design themselves to work just with one or few mainstream browsers (I believe I encountered only a couple of cases which forced me to use FF, one was something I had to use one shot, and the other one ... my organization new site providing the monthly payslips :mrgreen: ... did not work with PM 25, but works ok with PM 27-28).

So I think the constructive approach when reporting problems with a site is to give details, so some of the developers can tell whether it is a bad implementation from the site's part which could be overcome fudging the user agent identifier, or some about:config parameter, allowing to continue to use PM !
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. (G.B. Shaw)

raindress

Re: where has Pale Moon gone or going?

Unread post by raindress » 2018-11-20, 01:18

also have been with PM long time & agree with your comments.have tried upgrades twice & have had to revert. also have used Basilisk which is kinder to older extensions.regarding banking have a look at:viewtopic.php?f=3&t=19283 also the forum will most likely help you with other problems but is frustrating. new users of PM will not have so much trouble! if it helps I now use yandex a lot (although its chrome) the advantage is there are many opera & chrome extensions similar to FF that are useful

Lunix

Re: where has Pale Moon gone or going?

Unread post by Lunix » 2018-11-20, 02:01

I stay with 27.9.4 until the user consensus is that 28.* works as good or better than 27.*

This solution is only temporary because eventually there can be too many security issues to stay with 27.

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Re: where has Pale Moon gone or going?

Unread post by Moonchild » 2018-11-20, 08:25

Lunix wrote:I stay with 27.9.4 until the user consensus is that 28.* works as good or better than 27.*
I can say with conviction that v28.* works better than any v27.* version. It's not flawless, but neither was v27. And may I remind you of the increasing number of websites no longer working on v27 due to missing a lot of JavaScript support that the current web actively uses?
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Re: where has Pale Moon gone or going?

Unread post by yereverluvinuncleber » 2018-11-20, 09:49

bum_moon wrote:Hi
I am a looooooong term user of Pale Moon. I started using PM as it did things no other browser did, was intuitive to use and supported extensions i used every day and to me, were essential. I expounded the benefits of PM to friends and strongly advocated that they should use PM instead of any other browser available.
I'd agree that the OP is probably a Chrome user by design. He wants a browser that 'just works' as they say 'out of the tin'. PM isn't really that browser at the moment, it requires tinkering to keep your add-ons working, captchas are often awful and some sites are just badly coded to only function on the four main browsers. Those last two aren't going to change and unless PM continues to gain traction in the market place then that trend is just going to continue.

I think of PM as being like a classic car, good looking, can go really fast but requires regular tinkering to keep it going. It can't charge at the increasingly electric filling stations and it isn't that good under all road conditions. Occasionally you'll prefer to take out the BMW when the conditions dictate. I use PM 32 bit 95% of the time but I have FF ESR in the shadows for tricky tarmac and icy weather.
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bum_moon

Re: where has Pale Moon gone or going?

Unread post by bum_moon » 2018-11-21, 03:50

doofy
thanks for the suggestion but i avoid anything 'google' if & when possible
i have tried chrome a few times but it (for me) is not intuitive and does not seem to have the features or add-on ability that PM & FF have
even if it does everything i want & need, i can not be bothered getting my head around it, and the fact it is 'google', i am not interested

Moonchild
i really appreciate the work you have put into PM
sure v28 should be better than v27, but not for me at this time unfortunately

yereverluvinuncleber
i like your classic car analogy

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Re: where has Pale Moon gone or going?

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2018-11-21, 05:46

Where are we going? I can answer this question.

TO THE MOON!!!!!111oneone

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Re: where has Pale Moon gone or going?

Unread post by gepus » 2018-11-21, 09:02

yereverluvinuncleber wrote: PM isn't really that browser at the moment, it requires tinkering to keep your add-ons working, ...
I also have Firefox ESR v60 on my system. It was very troublesome to find adequate WebExtensions to begin with.
Actually all of those I found and installed (four WebExtensions) have severe limitations compared to LegacyExtensions which I use with Pale Moon.
1. JavaScript Toggle On and Off - can't toggle JS globally since WebExtensions are forbidden to access internal preferences of any browser.
2. MCookiesDisable - ways inferior with limited functionality compared to Cookie Controller.
3. uBlock Origin - doesn't work in Private Mode Browsing (it will loose all its updated filter lists) since they are stored in indexedDB.
4. Forget Me Not - a WebExtension I don't even have any use for in Pale Moon.

So far about tinkering with your add-ons.
yereverluvinuncleber wrote:Occasionally you'll prefer to take out the BMW when the conditions dictate.
Besides, there also other nuisances introduced with Quantum (e.g. with HD-cache disabled it will connect to sites each time you press the forward/backward button, something that didn't happen in pre-Quantum builds).
So far about your BMW. :)
yereverluvinuncleber wrote:I use PM 32 bit 95% of the time but I have FF ESR in the shadows for tricky tarmac and icy weather.
Luckily, since I installed FF ESR v60 I never had to use it.
Can you please make a list with sites that work with Firefox ESR but don't with Pale Moon?

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Re: where has Pale Moon gone or going?

Unread post by yereverluvinuncleber » 2018-11-23, 09:01

gepus wrote: Luckily, since I installed FF ESR v60 I never had to use it.
Do you know, my car analogy works due to PM being based upon a (from a Firefox user's perspective) a 'previous' technology. That's why it seems like a classic car. The issue is that MCd is taking the code in a direction that might break add-ons (add-ons being 50% of the reason we are all here in the first place) but all those add-on devs simply aren't interested in supporting <1% of the market that their extensions used to have. In FF they would be fixed by the devs and the end-user would upgrade/notice nothing. We have to fix the add-ons ourselves now.

Mozilla has abandoned that path and has taken a new path (that of Chrome) and so the new FF is untried, untested and unsatisfactory in many ways. Perhaps it is attempting to be a Chevy Volt following in the path of Tesla... Never adopt new technology when it is new, expensive and untested. There are many first generation electric cars that are dead bricks now. Note that this car analogy is not getting any more accurate as it continues.
gepus wrote:Can you please make a list with sites that work with Firefox ESR but don't with Pale Moon?
What me? No not really. I use FF as a workaround when I can't do something, no time to do anything else. I hope the problems resolve themselves as time progresses and PM matures. If the issue is massive for me then I raise it here but MCd has enough to consider and so for me workarounds are the norm. Sites with captchas are generally the main problem, lots of problems there, signing into github services, Deviantart message page, yahoo forum logging in after password reset, these are a few recent examples. The thing is I need to "get-on" like the OP so I use a workaround. What PM provides for me is good enough (add-ons, look and feel, usability) but for the OP, he just wants it to work.

Starting the engine using a bit of accelerator on a cold morning whilst holding opening the choke manually with your hand under the bonnet pulling the cable just isn't for him...
Last edited by yereverluvinuncleber on 2018-11-23, 09:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: where has Pale Moon gone or going?

Unread post by gepus » 2018-11-23, 13:24

yereverluvinuncleber wrote:The issue is that MCd is taking the code in a direction that might break add-ons (add-ons being 50% of the reason we are all here in the first place) but all those add-on devs simply aren't interested in supporting <1% of the market that their extensions used to have.
The browser must be kept actual otherwise it would become over the time useless for a huge number of sites.
Therefore changes of the browser code are inevitable. Such changes are not made because the devs feel bored or they have nothing better to do.
If the browser code an extension is based on changes, the extension will break. Keep in mind that extensions are targeting the browser and not vice versa.
Yes, I'm also one of those who switched to Pale Moon because it has support for legacy add-ons.
I can run all my legacy addons (I only use a few) with Pale Moon. With WebExtensions it's impossible to control the browser like one can do with legacy extensions.
Those who are comfortable with WebExtensions should use a browser that supports them.
Off-topic:
Are you working in the car manufacturing industry? :)

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Re: where has Pale Moon gone or going?

Unread post by Moonchild » 2018-11-24, 00:52

yereverluvinuncleber wrote:The issue is that MCd is taking the code in a direction that might break add-ons (add-ons being 50% of the reason we are all here in the first place) but all those add-on devs simply aren't interested in supporting <1% of the market that their extensions used to have.
This is why extensions need to be maintained. Browser code will change, it's inevitable. Extensions will need to respond to those changes so they need to be maintained by whomever is responsible for them (either the original author or the one forking it). That being said, you will not be looking at change without purpose here. We have no intention of rearchitecturing the browser or coming up with new ways of doing the same thing we are already doing or further restricting the APIs or interfaces that extensions interact with. This also means that breakage can be expected to be minimal -- but not zero.
Also, the remark about our small market share is irrelevant at this point. UXP will be the sole consumer of XUL, bootstrap and SDK add-ons soon enough, so there simply is no overlap with the WebExtensions ecosystem at all. So then it becomes a question of who will maintain the "legacy" version of these extensions? License permitting in most cases, it could be anyone, even you, the reader of this post :)
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Re: where has Pale Moon gone or going?

Unread post by yereverluvinuncleber » 2018-11-24, 15:26

No criticism of PM nor its developer intended, just trying to demonstrate the reality of the situation (using car analogies). It is as you say inevitable that PM will change and that some extensions will break. It is not beyond the capability of many of us here to find fixes, apply those and make an extension work, the desire to support PM just may not stimulate the original extension developer enough to make the change himself.

Tinkering under the hood to keep a customisation working is a very familiar scenario to me. Some knowledge, a familiarity of technology in general is more or less a requirement if you want to keep your Firefox-inspired PM environment on the road (BTW, I haven't mentioned cars in a while - I drive a Triumph Spitfire). Those that run the browser extension-free, I suggest are going to be the minority, most here are tech-savvy extension users . In addition this is a non-zero community so even if you can't fix your extension today, you'll probably be able to fix it tomorrow.
Last edited by yereverluvinuncleber on 2018-11-24, 15:27, edited 2 times in total.
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