Rant (sorry)

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Moonchild
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Rant (sorry)

Unread post by Moonchild » 2018-07-17, 20:00

$3 for a cup of coffee?
Sure.

$6 for a burger?
Yep.

$25 for a t-shirt?
Fair.

$75/month for cable?
Duh.

$800 for a smartphone?
Obviously!

$5/year to support a 100% free browser & services & a community of volunteer developers?
WHAT THE FUCK, I'M NOT MADE OF MONEY, I HAVE A FAMILY TO FEED, :THUMBSDOWN:.

(If every Pale Moon user would donate as little as $5/year to the project, we'd be able to do so much more for everyone.)
[/rant]

Sorry, just had to get that off my chest. As you were, carry on, nothing to see here.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

doofy
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Re: Rant (sorry)

Unread post by doofy » 2018-07-17, 20:10


Thehandyman1957

Re: Rant (sorry)

Unread post by Thehandyman1957 » 2018-07-18, 01:48

I completely agree. And truly, more will be coming. Just finished moving to a new place and
finally got a new job and now my transmission's first gear is giving fits. I haven't purchased
any of those items on that list and my only two external bills are internet $ 50 bucks and pre paid phone bill at $ 40
The rest is normal every day bills and stuff.

Actually, I was just getting ready to use that new site you had mentioned but saw it was having problems.
I realize this is boring blah blah blah but perhaps not all of us are as flush as it may seem.

But truly you and the team deserve more, and I hope to play my part very soon. :angel:

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mr tribute
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Re: Rant (sorry)

Unread post by mr tribute » 2018-07-18, 02:01

We have had that discussion in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=15653

What I wrote then is exactly what I would write today. A financial target IS important and if it isn't met it's not only a failure for the Pale Moon project but a failure for the whole PM community. As it is right now there is nothing that drives donations. No sense of urgency, no sense of a goal that should be met.

I don't care what the costs are. If they are $5k or $50k don't matter, because I'm smart enough to understand that Moonchild would be better off financially by doing something else. So the funding goal is NOT related to actual costs. Costs will vary depending on the scope of the project and the amount of money available. The funding goal is a way to extract a reasonable amount of money from the community. Texstar was in this position, but he set up yearly funding goals that were met (see thread above). Unfortunately he is battling disease now so the future is uncertain. But seeing funding goals being met three years in a row was a good feeling for the PCLOS community.

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Re: Rant (sorry)

Unread post by Baloo » 2018-07-18, 04:05

Thanks for posting this. I gave you around $5 in Bitcoin then last year (When it was worth around the 4k mark) right before you stopped taking cryptos, and I'd be happy to support the browser. I use Pale Moon as my everyday browser and love it. I'm hoping you will bring back Pale Moon to Android as well. Whatever helps keep Pale Moon going is good with me. A fast browser with great extensions and themes, and no proprietary nonsense. What isn't there to like?
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Moonchild
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Re: Rant (sorry)

Unread post by Moonchild » 2018-07-18, 04:19

Please don't misunderstand - this was just me expressing my frustration about the ones that don't support us with a justification of "we don't have the money" while it's actually about "I purely prioritize expenses for myself and anyone else who dares ask for even the tiniest amount is a criminal, and I just want their shit for free".

This isn't a request for more donations from people who are already giving.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

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back2themoon
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Re: Rant (sorry)

Unread post by back2themoon » 2018-07-18, 09:01

Unfortunately, I've seen several people with this kind of attitude towards software. They would rather die than pay for software, and I mean commercial software. You can imagine their mindset when it comes to donating for free software. They'd probably rather lose a kidney instead.
Last edited by back2themoon on 2018-07-18, 09:01, edited 2 times in total.

Latitude

Re: Rant (sorry)

Unread post by Latitude » 2018-07-18, 11:11

FYI, I always use DDG to support Pale Moon.

You're not alone, Moonchild.

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Re: Rant (sorry)

Unread post by doofy » 2018-07-18, 13:19

I note that since this Rant, 6 people have bought MC some coffee.

This is equal to the amount of coffee buyers in the preceding 25 days...

https://ko-fi.com/palemoon

Buying coffee is incredibly easy: you select an amount (min $2), opt to pay as guest, click a button and go straight to paypal.

Presumably pp creams of a small amount; ko-fi takes nothing.

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adesh
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Re: Rant (sorry)

Unread post by adesh » 2018-07-18, 16:16

Don't worry, Moonchild. We are here!

While I don't care, but if people want to see some NUMBERS because that's how human brain works, toss a target for them. Actual, understanding donors wouldn't care/mind and would still support the project, no matter what.

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Re: Rant (sorry)

Unread post by PalleP » 2018-07-18, 20:35

And for those who think it is necessary to register and login to buy the coffee (I thought so when I saw the site for the first time): You can just buy the coffee as guest, no login is required.
Last edited by PalleP on 2018-07-18, 20:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Moonchild
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Re: Rant (sorry)

Unread post by Moonchild » 2018-07-18, 20:50

doofy wrote:I note that since this Rant, 6 people have bought MC some coffee.
And that may just as well be because of the new release... More likely, actually.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

Fedor2

Re: Rant (sorry)

Unread post by Fedor2 » 2018-07-19, 16:21

More people could give you money, if it will be more ways to, if i want give i can do nothing with that coffie site, i can send you actual money with the postal, also i know western union is works for me and moneygram may be.

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Re: Rant (sorry)

Unread post by Moonchild » 2018-07-19, 18:45

Fedor2 wrote:More people could give you money, if it will be more ways to, if i want give i can do nothing with that coffie site, i can send you actual money with the postal, also i know western union is works for me and moneygram may be.
I used to have more ways but in the end what happened was that I was asked to provide a way to donate, I added it, it would be used once by the person asking and then never again by anyone else. It's all extra time and effort needed to research if it's viable or not, etc. -- some methods even don't allow you to withdraw until you've reached a certain limit and that might never happen with a once ever donation, either.
Currently the only 2 public ways are patreon (requiring a credit card) or Ko-Fi, which requires any payment method paypal accepts in your area (which is usually pretty broad). It's not doable to add specific methods for each country or region.

If you want to send cash, that's risky -- but possible if you really insist. I'm afraid i can't go any further than that.
Last edited by Moonchild on 2018-07-19, 18:46, edited 1 time in total.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

Octopuss

Re: Rant (sorry)

Unread post by Octopuss » 2018-07-20, 15:26

I've been unemployed for a long time and still could "afford" to donate twice. €10 is nothing to nobody.

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Re: Rant (sorry)

Unread post by Moonraker » 2018-07-20, 16:54

Octopuss wrote:I've been unemployed for a long time and still could "afford" to donate twice. €10 is nothing to nobody.
me too puss.
employment is quite hard to find in my area but i could donate at least twice a year.
user of multiple puppy linuxes..upup,fossapup.scpup,xenialpup..... :thumbup:

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LinuxUser2005

Re: Rant (sorry) added: Paypal?

Unread post by LinuxUser2005 » 2018-10-23, 22:13

Not trying to be difficult, but I want to give you money using my Paypal account.
I'm not interested in signing up at Ko-fi or anywhere else for that purpose.
Why not put a Paypal donation button on your website?
Ed

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Re: Rant (sorry)

Unread post by Moonchild » 2018-10-24, 05:12

Ed,

Ko-Fi requires no signup; the donation is handled through PayPal directly. It's pretty much equal to just using PayPal, only with automatic public record of donations made (which people have asked for). Just enter the desired amount to donate, any optional message you want to include, and the rest will be handled through PayPal.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

CharmCityCrab

Re: Rant (sorry)

Unread post by CharmCityCrab » 2018-10-24, 17:39

Moonchild wrote:$3 for a cup of coffee?
Sure.

$6 for a burger?
Yep.

$25 for a t-shirt?
Fair.

$75/month for cable?
Duh.

$800 for a smartphone?
Obviously!

$5/year to support a 100% free browser & services & a community of volunteer developers?
WHAT THE FUCK, I'M NOT MADE OF MONEY, I HAVE A FAMILY TO FEED, :THUMBSDOWN:.

(If every Pale Moon user would donate as little as $5/year to the project, we'd be able to do so much more for everyone.)
[/rant]

Sorry, just had to get that off my chest. As you were, carry on, nothing to see here.
You want a real response to that or were you just getting it off your chest to relieve your stress? If the latter, feel free to ignore this.

Okay, firstly, none of the things on your list that people pay for are typically available for free on a consistent basis and have competitors who offer similar products for free. There may be a $1 of coffee one can buy instead of a $3 cup of coffee, and you may be able to brew your own at an even lower cost per cup if you can invest in a coffee maker and other basic coffee making products, but it's not free as in beer. I've occasionally seen bare bottom rung smartphones offered for free on prepaid services, but it's always with purchase of 1 or more months of service, no one actually hands the thing to you without being paid for something. And there's always the occasional exception like a free t-shirt contest- but, generally, we're talking about products that typically have to be bought, and you just have no choice. Of course people pay when they have no choice and really want the product and have no reasonable free as in beer alternative. Different situation than a free as in beer web browser, offered among a sea of other free as in beer web browsers.

The closest thing there to free as in beer that people pay for that they *might* be able to find a free as in beer alternative to, or thing that can basically do the same thing as, is cable, if you mean television. Even there, though, in most countries, if you are going after programs or sporting events not technically legally available for free via torrent or whatever, you're breaking the law- and some people find it important to stay on the right side of the law even in minor matters and even given laws they may disagree with- plus there is no guarantee that looking into pirate streams will net you, say, the specific game you want to watch at the specific video quality you want with the same ease as television 100% of the time. Now, there are some *legal* Internet streaming alternatives to cable, but people still pay for those, so they are basically in the same category as paying for cable in terms of what we're discussing (Just possibly cheaper, with skinnier bundles, different channel selection, etc.). Granted, there are some free and legal streams, but selection is *very* limited on those.

Secondly, there is the assumption that most non-donors are paying for the things you describe. I haven't had a $3 cup of coffee in over 10 years, and even then it was only because it was a less expensive date than dinner. $6 for a burger? Okay, but normally my income and credit situation forces me to live like a monk, so if I buy a new burger once every month or two as a treat, that's just what I'm going to do. $25 for a t-shirt? Because I am a very large guy, it's hard to find reasonably priced shirts, and sometimes I'm forced to pay that price so I don't have to walk around without a shirt, though when I can find less expensive ones and I am in the market for a shirt, I buy them- clothing is generally listed right after food and shelter as a basically necessity of life. Cable? Nope, don't have it, if we're talking TV- I do pay a much lesser amount for a paid streaming service when I can because my lack of money and poor health leaves me laying on a couch at home a disproportionate amount of the time. Expensive smartphone? Mine is paid off (2 1/2 years old) and I will likely keep it until it stops working or it's battery runs down so much as to render essentially unusable. I doubt I'll be able to afford or get financing on the latest flagships when it breaks or the non-replaceable battery wears down.

I literally have what I assume are bill collectors pounding on my door and will probably have to declare bankruptcy or something similar. I may wind up being sued by some of my creditors and summoned to court eventually. I'm worried about my future and the future of the few things I own and love, and some other matters I won't go into here. But suffice is to say, my finances are bad and my anxiety level is through the roof. My blood pressure is going up even as I'm losing weight, which baffles my doctor, but I understand exactly what's going on- stress.

So, yes, at this point I would not donate anything to anyone for something I could legally acquire for free. I realize not every one is in quite that dire of a situation, but your core issue here is that you expect people to donate for things that they can get for free- not just from you, but also free other browser vendors. Some people are generous and will do it, but you're never going to get a 1 to 1 user to donor ratio. It goes against human nature in general, some people's economic situations in particular, and economic theory in general.

You also don't have an irreplaceable product. It's good, but I switched to Vivaldi and then Firefox and do fine. I like Pale Moon, that's part of why I still occasionally stop by the forum. I like to engage in some chatter here, too, and there is a *possibility* that Pale Moon may once again be the only product on the market that really does what I want it to do in the way I want it to be done eventually (Firefox drifted much closer to my wheelhouse with version 57+ with the right options and about:config changes- and Vivaldi gave me most of what I wanted, it was just slow). But anything that gets better can then get worse, and it would be nice if Pale Moon were still here if I need it down the line. But I think if you were (And I know you are not planning on this) to, say, charge $5 a download, it would be surprising how many people would switch to something like Waterfox or whatever, even over a $5 one-time fee.

I understand the frustration. You work on hard on this and wish people would just donate a little for your hard work, when fair market compensation for someone of your skills is probably much more than you get "paid" for doing PM, especially net after you reinvest some of the donations you get back into the project. However, in the end, if getting paid fair market value is the highest priority you have, your best bet is take a job working on proprietary for-profit software that will pay you a regular salary or employ you by the hour. Doing open-sourced stuff, especially for the non-business market, is not a very lucrative thing to do. And, yes, I completely recognize that you'd prefer something in the middle- where you can do what you love and believe in, and make a lesser amount than you'd make working for Microsoft (Random example), but a greater amount than you make now. But the middle ground isn't there. Which sucks, and I empathize, but there are many things I wish were different about the choices (or lack thereof) I have in life, too. My limited choices piss me off as much or more as yours piss you off (My health is horrific, but is the root cause of some of these situations, so I will never bring in above poverty level income, and am left with deep physical pain, which becomes stress, anxiety, and emotional pain. Heck, right now not being able to find a wife to settle down with when I was young, which was *the* most important thing in the world to me once upon a time, seems like small potatoes, but it was a significant "unfair" fallout from my poor health and income, and other factors- nothing I could do after a certain point. I tried for a long time.). But they are there. Your situation is part of the human experience. One of us, etc..

That's not to say you can't be angry about it, it's just to say that I think it's kind of clear what your available choices are, and the ideal you are hinting at is sadly not on the table at this time. So, you are or will choose the "least bad" of what you have on the table, which is what we all do, or, if you don't feel like you have a choice for whatever reason (I don't know why you wouldn't in this case, but I don't know your exact circumstances), the situation will play out with or without your frustration. It's of course better for you if you can take a zen approach and let go of your frustration, but sometimes people can't- I usually can't. That's human nature, too, I get it.

I'm just saying, there are reasons why what you are hoping for isn't happening that are pretty deep-seated and unlikely to change, and, barring some philanthropist dropping a ton of money on you because he has more money than he knows what to do with, it is what it is. We usually can't choose our reality. Sometimes we can choose how we react to it (Although, not always- I'm a fate kind of guy philosophically- not a directed fate, just that we don't have as much real choice as most people think we do, and there is a trajectory our lives will take that can't always be avoided, kind of way. i.e. I only believe in limited free will.).
Last edited by CharmCityCrab on 2018-10-24, 18:51, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Rant (sorry)

Unread post by rabnbeinn » 2018-10-24, 19:35

I'll keep this short ....

Fortunately I can afford to donate, and will quite happily buy you a coffee every week. :coffee:

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