Which VPN?

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Re: Which VPN?

Unread postby Phantom » Sun, 27 May 2018, 12:30

Moonchild wrote:
Phantom wrote:And VPN Unlimited failed the DNS leak test.

Edit-

Actually, it does look like they have DNS leak protection, but when I use my router's DNS it leaks. If I set my network adapter to Google's there is no leak.


You clearly don't understand, in that case. Of course it "leaks" your location if you use your router's DNS servers. LAN will always be prioritized over routed traffic, so in that case ANY VPN service will "fail" this test. Never use a router DNS address if you use VPN services; always use internet-based DNS services.




I don't think you understand. My router has OpenDNS set for my DNS. I use VPN.AC and using that DNS leak test site there is no leak. When I use VPN Unlimited there is a leak unless manually changing my network adapter to DNS 8.8.8.8. Then there is no leak. Why I have no leak with my VPN and with the other I don't know.
Last edited by Phantom on Sun, 27 May 2018, 12:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Which VPN?

Unread postby Moonchild » Sun, 27 May 2018, 15:32

Phantom wrote:Why I have no leak with my VPN and with the other I don't know.

I already explained this to you. If you use a local DNS (router DNS on your LAN, DNS server on your LAN, etc.) then you are bypassing the VPN for DNS lookups because unrouted traffic has priority over routed traffic. That is simply how network segmentation and routing works.
Your "other" VPN may override your DNS servers when activating it -- that is potentially not a good thing because it will likely mean your DNS is taken over by the VPN provider. VPN providers should not do that because it is not part of the VPN scope.
Last edited by Moonchild on Mon, 28 May 2018, 03:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which VPN?

Unread postby TwoTankAmin » Sun, 27 May 2018, 23:30

@Thehandyman1957

TY for all the education. I have 2 thoughts re Vypr. First, I should get the paid version and second, I should get Chameleon.

I need to get my email moved first, then the VPN.
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Re: Which VPN?

Unread postby Thehandyman1957 » Mon, 28 May 2018, 01:24

TwoTankAmin wrote:@Thehandyman1957

TY for all the education. I have 2 thoughts re Vypr. First, I should get the paid version and second, I should get Chameleon.

I need to get my email moved first, then the VPN.


Glad it helped. Good luck. ;)
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Re: Which VPN?

Unread postby bawldiggle » Mon, 28 May 2018, 01:40

We (2) share the same local ISP ... separate emails, with the ISP
Our router is a Fritz!box ... high end (if that makes a difference ?)
Do we need separate VPNs or can we "share" the VPN :?:

Off-topic:
Very interesting thread, I read it all once (so far) but now will have to go back to post #1 and "really" digest it.
A lot to learn :wtf:
Last edited by bawldiggle on Mon, 28 May 2018, 01:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which VPN?

Unread postby Phantom » Mon, 28 May 2018, 07:50

Moonchild wrote:Your "other" VPN may override your DNS servers when activating it -- that is potentially not a good thing because it will likely mean your DNS is taken over by the VPN provider. VPN providers should not do that because it is not part of the VPN scope.


That is probably what is happening, but it only means I have no DNS leaks while using my VPN. When I go to the DNS leak test page all DNS traffic is ported over to servers in Canada. I can't achieve that with VPN Unlimited unless I change the NIC's DNS to 8.8.8.8. That's not something I would want. Besides, many people use a non-ISP DNS's in their router. So the fact you have to change your NIC's is cumbersome. It really should be up to the VPN client to port your DNS traffic over their DNS and not the DNS you use for normal stuff.

That $150 for lifetime sounded great, but knowing what I have read from their email and the DNS leaks, I'll stick to VPN.AC. I like the double hop feature, the DNS leak protection, no port forwarding allowed and they are based in Romania so it would be a PITA to try and pull records of my activity. The only logs they apparently keep are bandwidth logs that are flushed daily.
Last edited by Phantom on Mon, 28 May 2018, 07:52, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Which VPN?

Unread postby Moonchild » Mon, 28 May 2018, 12:13

Phantom wrote:It really should be up to the VPN client to port your DNS traffic over their DNS and not the DNS you use for normal stuff.

I really don't think so. VPN is a very specific protocol that operates at the routing layer. DNS is a protocol that is much higher in the networking model. A VPN service should never control what DNS (or any other networking service for that matter) you must use with their service! I would never use VPN.AC if that is what they enforce with their client, especially not something as sensitive as name resolution.
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Re: Which VPN?

Unread postby Phantom » Tue, 29 May 2018, 08:08

If your DNS queries aren't ported over another IP while you use your VPN, then what's the point of having a secure IP connection in the first place? What VPN.Ac does is pipe your DNS queries over their IPs so that your DNS is private as well. That's the nature of DNS leak protection. After I turn off my VPN, my regular DNS using OpenDNS is then used. It's not a huge deal or anything. It just means that no one can sniff my DNS queries while I use my VPN.
Last edited by Phantom on Tue, 29 May 2018, 08:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Which VPN?

Unread postby Moonchild » Tue, 29 May 2018, 10:01

Phantom wrote:If your DNS queries aren't ported over another IP while you use your VPN, then what's the point of having a secure IP connection in the first place? What VPN.Ac does is pipe your DNS queries over their IPs so that your DNS is private as well. That's the nature of DNS leak protection. After I turn off my VPN, my regular DNS using OpenDNS is then used. It's not a huge deal or anything. It just means that no one can sniff my DNS queries while I use my VPN.


No need to try and educate me -- I know what DNS leaks are, and when this is important.

You are absolutely right in that your DNS queries should go through the VPN if you don't trust your local DNS server. But this should not be controlled by the VPN provider. If you want to use OpenDNS, then use OpenDNS in your network stack for your NIC directly and don't gate it through your router (which just acts like a forwarder anyway in most cases so will just slow things down). Your only problem that you seem to insist on blaming on the VPN provider as a leak is your own setting to use OpenDNS through your router's local address. That is your own configuration error for VPN use, and that is not up to the VPN provider to "fix for you" by forcing DNS lookups through their DNS servers when using their client. Doing so they effectively override your choice of OpenDNS which you undoubtedly use for good reason.
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Re: Which VPN?

Unread postby TwoTankAmin » Tue, 29 May 2018, 16:20

@Mooinchild

I am Using open DNS for my addresses. Am I understanding correctly that this is a good thing to do. Now I am worried about what to do re this when I get my VPN.

And this is why I hate today's technology. To keep myself semi-safe and my privacy respected means i should go back to school. :( The one thing I have learned over the years about the people who write code and make programs/app. They are some of the word's worst writers. If you want a course in how to write to confuse people, study whatever the IT folks read wich leads them to make sure they write in a way that keep the average user as confused as possible.

As an aside- I was watching Morning Joe on MSNB today and I saw Joe Scarborough announce he was getting rid of his smart phone and going back to a flip phone. I have only used a flip since day one :crazy:

Edit: I discovered that Proton also offers a VPN. Looks pretty decent, any thoughts? https://protonvpn.com/secure-vpn
Last edited by TwoTankAmin on Tue, 29 May 2018, 23:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which VPN?

Unread postby Phantom » Wed, 30 May 2018, 11:01

Moonchild wrote:
Phantom wrote:If your DNS queries aren't ported over another IP while you use your VPN, then what's the point of having a secure IP connection in the first place? What VPN.Ac does is pipe your DNS queries over their IPs so that your DNS is private as well. That's the nature of DNS leak protection. After I turn off my VPN, my regular DNS using OpenDNS is then used. It's not a huge deal or anything. It just means that no one can sniff my DNS queries while I use my VPN.


No need to try and educate me -- I know what DNS leaks are, and when this is important.

You are absolutely right in that your DNS queries should go through the VPN if you don't trust your local DNS server. But this should not be controlled by the VPN provider. If you want to use OpenDNS, then use OpenDNS in your network stack for your NIC directly and don't gate it through your router (which just acts like a forwarder anyway in most cases so will just slow things down). Your only problem that you seem to insist on blaming on the VPN provider as a leak is your own setting to use OpenDNS through your router's local address. That is your own configuration error for VPN use, and that is not up to the VPN provider to "fix for you" by forcing DNS lookups through their DNS servers when using their client. Doing so they effectively override your choice of OpenDNS which you undoubtedly use for good reason.



Like I stated. When I use my VPN that's when the DNS traffic gets router through my VPN's IPs and not OpenDNS. When I don't use my VPN then it's OpenDNS as usual. The reason why the DNS is set to OpenDNS in my router is that it will cover the entire network for porn filtering and achieves the ability to use all of OpenDNS' features on all computers and devices. Setting the DNS IPs in each computer and device is not only a pain and impractical for some things, but a user could simply override the filters in place at the NIC. This way you would have to log into the router to change it, and I've configured DNS in such a way where you can't use another DNS change in the NIC. Unless of course you run a VPN. Thankfully the users here don't even know what a VPN is. And if they did wouldn't even buy it. :lol:

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Re: Which VPN?

Unread postby Phantom » Wed, 30 May 2018, 11:05

TwoTankAmin wrote:@Mooinchild

I am Using open DNS for my addresses. Am I understanding correctly that this is a good thing to do. Now I am worried about what to do re this when I get my VPN.

And this is why I hate today's technology. To keep myself semi-safe and my privacy respected means i should go back to school. :( The one thing I have learned over the years about the people who write code and make programs/app. They are some of the word's worst writers. If you want a course in how to write to confuse people, study whatever the IT folks read wich leads them to make sure they write in a way that keep the average user as confused as possible.

As an aside- I was watching Morning Joe on MSNB today and I saw Joe Scarborough announce he was getting rid of his smart phone and going back to a flip phone. I have only used a flip since day one :crazy:

Edit: I discovered that Proton also offers a VPN. Looks pretty decent, any thoughts? https://protonvpn.com/secure-vpn



Sorry, I can't vouch for Joe Scarborough. Oh! Proton VPN. No, I have no idea what they offer. I would ask them three questions:

1) Do they allow port forwarding?

2) Do they have DNS leak protection?

3) What country is their VPN based in?

Based on that is how I'd chose whether they are worth a damn or not. If there is no DNS leak protection, they use port forwarding and are based in a country that's not Internet privacy friendly. Then forgetaboutit. And even if the say they use DNS leak protection, you need to go here and verify that with an extended test. https://www.dnsleaktest.com/

Edit- One more question: What kind of logs do they keep and how often are they flushed. ALL VPN's keep a log of some sort.
Last edited by Phantom on Wed, 30 May 2018, 11:07, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Which VPN?

Unread postby TwoTankAmin » Wed, 30 May 2018, 14:36

1) Do they allow port forwarding?
We have carefully selected our encryption cipher suites to only include ones that have Perfect Forward Secrecy. This means that your encrypted traffic cannot be captured and decrypted later if the encryption key from a subsequent session gets compromised. With each connection, we generate a new encryption key, so a key is never used for more than one session.


2) Do they have DNS leak protection?
ProtonVPN doesn't just protect your browsing traffic, we also protect your DNS queries. By routing your DNS queries through the encrypted tunnel and not relying on third party DNS providers, we ensure that your browsing activity cannot be exposed by leaks from DNS queries.


3) What country is their VPN based in?
legal protection. Because we are based in Switzerland, ProtonVPN is protected by some of the world's strongest privacy laws and remains outside of US and EU jurisdiction. This means that unlike VPN providers based in a fourteen eyes country, we cannot be coerced into spying on our users. Critical infrastructure in Switzerland is located in a former Swiss army fallout shelter 1000 meters below the surface. Similarly, our Iceland infrastructure resides in a secure former military base. Our servers in Sweden are also located in an underground datacenter. By shipping our own equipment to these locations, we ensure that our servers are also secure at the hardware level.



The above answers are on their site which I linked to in my last post so people could check it out. I believe #2 and #3 are the answers asked for, but for #1 I am not certain since the term port forwarding was not used. If I were able to understand this stuff well enough, this thread would not exist. :-) All I want is for Verizon not to be able to track me and to collect my data which they are now permitted to do. I am not concerned with speed. The only game I play online is poker. All I want is to insure my anonymity to the greatest extent I reasonably can. I am literally being forced to do this stuff by Verizon. They are not the only one, any ISP provider in America is doing the same thing. This is why I am now seeing ads on TV here for NordVPN.

Also, I have never been one who needs or even wants the latest technology, I want what I can use easily. When Moonchild asked folks to change their site passwords, I did so. To make it simple I added onto my existing password. Since then every time except fir this time, I have typed in my old password m been denied and then remembered I had a new one. I have been using certain passwords for a vary long time and they are like muscle memory. The older one gets (as a senior) the harder it become to unlearn lont term hbits and replace them with something new.
Last edited by TwoTankAmin on Wed, 30 May 2018, 14:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which VPN?

Unread postby rabnbeinn » Wed, 30 May 2018, 18:12

Your ISP will only know that you are connected to a private server.

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Re: Which VPN?

Unread postby Thehandyman1957 » Wed, 30 May 2018, 20:22

I found another interesting VPN article I thought I would share. ;)
Be cautious, free VPNs are selling your data to 3rd parties
https://thenextweb.com/contributors/201 ... d-parties/
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Re: Which VPN?

Unread postby TwoTankAmin » Wed, 30 May 2018, 22:26

I found another interesting VPN article I thought I would share. ;)
Be cautious, free VPNs are selling your data to 3rd parties
https://thenextweb.com/contributors/201 ... d-parties/

First off, considering the importance of a VPN or a secure Email service, I believe it is foolish in almost any case to look for free unless you simply cannot afford even a few $ a month. I have a saying, With free, you usually get what you pay for.

I went to that article which linked to the actual source article that was being quoted https://thenextweb.com/security/2018/03/27/26-popular-115-vpns-keeping-tabs-saying-theyre-not/ There is also this link is to listhttps://thebestvpn.com/118-vpns-logging-policy/ It says it was: Last updated: March 22, 2018. Interesting because the article referenced by thenextweb is to 115 and the actual thebestvpn article is about 118. Hmmmm....

On the list of 26, and relative to this thread, was 5. VyprVPN. You can read their full review here https://thebestvpn.com/reviews/vyprvpn/ This link has a ton of summaries and rates both the 26 vpns that log and then 26 that don't log and finally, 63 that keep what they call "no important log files.

Now here is what gets my hackles up about thebestvpn site. They have VyprVpn as #5 on the list of 26 loggers. But if I click from the list of other articles on the left side of the page, the top link is to Best VPNs (TOP). It takes one to an article dated Feb.26, 2018, less than one month before the log list. Here are their top five pics from their list of the 35 most popular VPNs:
1. ExpressVPN: The Best “All Round” VPN ($6.67/mo) (This was one that had appealed to me in this thread,)
2. NordVPN: A Legitimate VPN Software ($2.75/mo)
3. CyberGhost VPN: An Affordable (Quality) VPN ($3.50/mo)
4. VyprVPN: One of the Most Powerful Budget-Friendly VPNs ($5.00/mo)

While there is a ton of info on thebestvpn site, the fact that they both have Vypr both on the logs kept list and their recommended list seems somewhat contradictory and makes me wonder how much one should trust the site. But their review is also great for Express. *Sigh*

So here i am again in conflict land because i cannot answer the questions nor do i know who can do so with reasonable accuracy. Which is safe who isn't, who to trust......
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Re: Which VPN?

Unread postby satrow » Thu, 31 May 2018, 00:06

Most of the 'topten' and 'thebest' -type sites are not to be trusted, they're taking a cut on sales from *someone* in exchange for higher listing for those (usually mediocre) software packages.

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Re: Which VPN?

Unread postby TwoTankAmin » Thu, 31 May 2018, 14:41

Most of the 'topten' and 'thebest' -type sites are not to be trusted, they're taking a cut on sales from *someone* in exchange for higher listing for those (usually mediocre) software packages.


You are correct, at least in terms of thebestvpn site. It took me a while to find it. Here it is:
Earnings disclosure: We are affiliated with some of the VPN services listed on this site. This helps us to cover the expenses of testing 30+ VPN providers.


Here is the email I sent the founder followed by his reply.
Hi –

I am trying to find a decent VPN and found myself reading on your site. I saw your disclosure that you are affiliated with some of the VPNs you review. It’s good that you disclosed that, but not so good re how hard it is to come across. However, what is not acceptable is that I see no indication in your reviews (especially your top recommendations) which VPN providers give you money. This makes your opinion not trustable. Intelligent readers must assume your top recommendations are the ones that pay/contribute the most. Therefore, we cannot trust them. Moreover, it may be that only two of them are from your top money providers which means the third biggest provider is among the rest. This makes then next few names hard to trust either.

You should identify exactly when you are affiliated with the VPN provider you are reviewing. If I were rating VPN reviewers, you would be listed as untrustworthy due to potential bias.

A concerned reader.


They responded right away:
Hi
Thanks for your email. We're only affiliated with NordVPN & ExpressVPN.

And only because we've found them best performing. We'll be including a spreadsheet of all this information soon in the post.
Thanks
John


I am happy to get an honest answer. But it is not a very good answer. It means I cannot really trust what they are saying about their two top recommendations. All it does is leave one stuck with that old "chicken or the egg" debate. What it does do for me os mean I do not know if their two top choices are any good or not. If I am not mistaken, Nord and Express are two of the most popular services out there. This has nothing to do with how good or bad they might be, only that they make more money. Here was my reply to their answer:
John-

Thank you for your prompt response and thank you for being honest about who provides financial support for thebestvpn. However, you need to realize how bad this looks. Even if everything is completely on the up-and-up, the appearance is clearly that there is a conflict of interest. And for me this means I cannot trust your reviews and I would suggest that nobody else should do so either.

Please understand, I have no idea if you folks are completely honest or if you are the exact opposite. What I know is what I can see. And what I can see is not good. I suggest you need to reconsider your business model here. I had seriously considered Express as my first choice for a VPN, what your site has done is make me decide this may be a bad idea. Not only does this all reflect poorly on your efforts, but it also reflects poorly on both Express and Nord. I now think they may be buying good reviews. If they are giving thebestvpn money, I assume they are likely doing the same for other sites which will give them good reviews. And this makes them look untrustworthy.

Appearances do matter, especially when they point up potential conflicts of interest.

Again, thanks for being honest. Unfortunately, it doesn’t make my search for the right VPN any easier.


Is there even one truly independent and trustworthy source for reviewing technology? I am coming to believe there is not. *sigh*
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Re: Which VPN?

Unread postby Phantom » Thu, 31 May 2018, 15:35

TwoTankAmin wrote:
The above answers are on their site which I linked to in my last post so people could check it out. I believe #2 and #3 are the answers asked for, but for #1 I am not certain since the term port forwarding was not used. If I were able to understand this stuff well enough, this thread would not exist. :-) All I want is for Verizon not to be able to track me and to collect my data which they are now permitted to do. I am not concerned with speed. The only game I play online is poker. All I want is to insure my anonymity to the greatest extent I reasonably can. I am literally being forced to do this stuff by Verizon. They are not the only one, any ISP provider in America is doing the same thing. This is why I am now seeing ads on TV here for NordVPN.

Also, I have never been one who needs or even wants the latest technology, I want what I can use easily. When Moonchild asked folks to change their site passwords, I did so. To make it simple I added onto my existing password. Since then every time except fir this time, I have typed in my old password m been denied and then remembered I had a new one. I have been using certain passwords for a vary long time and they are like muscle memory. The older one gets (as a senior) the harder it become to unlearn lont term hbits and replace them with something new.



You are right about question #1. That doesn't answer the port forwarding question at all. It would be best to email them and ask. If they allow port forwarding or plan to, scratch that VPN off.

They are located in Switzerland which is good. I couldn't care less if the servers were buried near the earth's core, but it does offer an unique ability to not be a victim to side channel attacks if that was a threat. And of course they are more than likely hardened against nuclear attack, but the floor would have to have springs and a direct hit would be curtains. Besides, if the U.S. or if there's an all out nuclear attack, in large part the Internet as we know it is gone. :lol:

If all you do is play games on the Internet, I really wouldn't worry about your ISP seeing your traffic. Email on the other hand can be a more personal thing and I would check out Protonmail for that and use a VPN to connect to their service. If I can remember right, I think Edward Snowden mentioned Protonemail. But I can't remember. If you really want to go full blown paranoid, check out the OS Qubes. But you need to read all about it and use the right hardware.

In this day and age VPNs are all the rage, and I have a felling many are just junk. What makes matters worse is many people don't know how to pick a good one. They have a false sense of security. Especially those that run Kodi.



TwoTankAmin wrote:
Is there even one truly independent and trustworthy source for reviewing technology? I am coming to believe there is not. *sigh*



I really should email a bunch of VPN providers and ask all of them those four questions I asked. Then post their responses to my site. I'd probably gain some good SEO. :D
Last edited by Phantom on Thu, 31 May 2018, 15:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Which VPN?

Unread postby Moonchild » Thu, 31 May 2018, 15:57

Well, that's a good idea then. All of this is certainly drifting pretty far away from the general topic of this forum and would probably be better discussed on dedicated fora for these types of networking services. Speaking of SEO, this particular thread is already attracting spammers to try and tack on "best vpn" top-n linked sites in reply posts pretending to be useful replies in this discussion, so it's starting to become a little annoying to deal with from a moderation point of view, also.
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