Which VPN?

General discussion and chat (archived)
van p
Astronaut
Astronaut
Posts: 592
Joined: 2015-11-19, 07:15
Location: Cincinnati, OH, U.S.A.

Re: Which VPN?

Unread post by van p » 2018-05-31, 15:58

Phantom, you said, " One more question: What kind of logs do they keep and how often are they flushed. ALL VPN's keep a log of some sort." Some say they keep no logs. How do we know who's lying and who's telling the truth?
Windows 10 Pro x64 v22H2 8GB i5-4570|Pale Moon v33.0.1 x64

User avatar
TwoTankAmin
Keeps coming back
Keeps coming back
Posts: 777
Joined: 2014-07-23, 13:56
Location: New York

Re: Which VPN?

Unread post by TwoTankAmin » 2018-05-31, 16:51

@Moonchild
Not my intention to give you or the forum issues. I assume the average Pale Moon user is moderately tech savvy and some are pretty expert. I am the exact opposite. So I ask here for advice on related stuff. If i cannot trust anything I find on the net on this topic, the next best things for me is to ask here. Your VPN looked great except it is USA based and I do not want that. If one lives outside the USA this might not matter.

I did find out why I cannot trust most reviews re VPNs etc. either. The one thing I did learn in all of this is to use Proton for email. I also learned that this site is not really any better for my getting usable info re technology except about the browsers themselves. I seem to end up more confused than before I start asking questions. So, I will just have to make my best guess.

Thanks to all who tried to help.
“No one has ever become poor by giving.” Anonymous
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”" Daniel Patrick Moynihan
"The good thing about science is that it’s true whether or not you believe in it." Neil DeGrasse Tyson

Thehandyman1957

Re: Which VPN?

Unread post by Thehandyman1957 » 2018-05-31, 17:35

Strange, I posted this yesterday and it was not here today. Perhaps it was removed? :?: If so, please let
me know and I will leave this subject alone from this point on. :silent:

A couple of things stand out to me. And we have to take the context of VprVPN of where they are located, who and what authorities
they would hand over "crime" information too.
Screenshot - 5_31_2018 , 5_16_20 PM.png
Personally, I find VprVPN more honest in their assessment of logging and they do not hide this
fact even on their web page. I would much more trust a company that tells me the truth up
front than one who says they do not log but yet either they do, or their servers are farmed out
and they simply have no control over who copies their clients information.

Let's face it, if someone is planning on using a VPN to commit a crime and trusts that
the VPN isn't going to log that information or the farmed out servers aren't compromised
by law enforcement then they have bigger problems.

VprVPN clearly states where their servers are, how long they will keep the very basic and essential
logging information needed to simply run their VPN business, and what would throw a red flag to them
as a business to feel the need to give up that information to law enforcement.

None of these things should concern you as a normal everyday guy simply wanting to keep
the nosy company hacks from selling your browsing information.

I would relax in the information you have. Don't over think it. Personally, and trust me.
I have no reason to even talk about this company other than the true desire to see anybody
else considering the use of a VPN make the best choice possible for their own use.

I stumbled upon this company only by accident. I was so impressed with their arguments and
candor that I personally would use their service if I could afford it. But to each their own.

This will be the last time I post about this so as not to offend or bother anyone. I think I have said enough. :coffee:
Last edited by Thehandyman1957 on 2018-05-31, 17:38, edited 2 times in total.

Phantom

Re: Which VPN?

Unread post by Phantom » 2018-06-01, 12:10

van p wrote:Phantom, you said, " One more question: What kind of logs do they keep and how often are they flushed. ALL VPN's keep a log of some sort." Some say they keep no logs. How do we know who's lying and who's telling the truth?

I would say that any VPN that says that keep no logs once so ever are lying. There is a log of some sort, at least a bandwidth log. Not that a bandwidth log can connect the dots to who connected to where, but it's never the less a log.

Phantom

Re: Which VPN?

Unread post by Phantom » 2018-06-01, 12:17

Moonchild wrote:Well, that's a good idea then. All of this is certainly drifting pretty far away from the general topic of this forum and would probably be better discussed on dedicated fora for these types of networking services. Speaking of SEO, this particular thread is already attracting spammers to try and tack on "best vpn" top-n linked sites in reply posts pretending to be useful replies in this discussion, so it's starting to become a little annoying to deal with from a moderation point of view, also.

Well, your captcha is pretty good. But perhaps you need to use a script or extension that quires the stop forum spam database as well. For a script there's CIDRAM (the author is a friend of mine) and for a phpBB extension there's this: https://www.phpbb.com/customise/db/exte ... orum_spam/
Last edited by Phantom on 2018-06-01, 12:17, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 35475
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Motala, SE
Contact:

Re: Which VPN?

Unread post by Moonchild » 2018-06-01, 12:56

The SFS extension for phpBB has been in use for a while -- it really doesn't stop these human-drone-powered posts.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

Phantom

Re: Which VPN?

Unread post by Phantom » 2018-06-02, 06:02

I see. Well, on the bright side you do hold first time posts in moderation Que. I can understand how that can be a PITA to delete all those accounts.

This is why I know the subject of VPNs would probably net me some SEO. It's such a hot topic today and especially true for those that stream movies and TV shows illegally and need a VPN for those services. I think the biggest misconception about VPNs is that people thinks it guards against malware which couldn't be more farther from the truth. Just because you have an encrypted tunnel with a new IP doesn't mean you can't be infected. I even think that some people might think the same thing when a website offers TLS/SSL and they see that little, "your secure" message about the website. It's kinda sad at what some people don't know.

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 35475
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Motala, SE
Contact:

Re: Which VPN?

Unread post by Moonchild » 2018-06-03, 09:41

Phantom wrote:I would say that any VPN that says that keep no logs once so ever are lying. There is a log of some sort, at least a bandwidth log. Not that a bandwidth log can connect the dots to who connected to where, but it's never the less a log.
I'm sorry but you are mistaken. Collecting aggregate statistics is not the same as logging. You may want to do some research on the different ways data is collected and to what level that data is anonymous/private or considered logging.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

troypulk

Re: Which VPN?

Unread post by troypulk » 2018-06-04, 05:09

TwoTankAmin wrote:I assume the average Pale Moon user is moderately tech savvy and some are pretty expert. I am the exact opposite. So I ask here for advice on related stuff.
You should go through these sites they look very good on privacy

https://www.privacytools.io/

https://thatoneprivacysite.net/

User avatar
TwoTankAmin
Keeps coming back
Keeps coming back
Posts: 777
Joined: 2014-07-23, 13:56
Location: New York

Re: Which VPN?

Unread post by TwoTankAmin » 2018-06-04, 17:12

I have stopped trusting the online VPN review sites. I have no way to determine the accuracy or honesty of them and as I looked at more and more they tended not to agree. I prefer to rely on the personal opinion from somebody I believe is likely giving me trustworthy information and whom I can believe is a knowledgeable source.

I did look at the two links above and found them to be just more of the same. I did not trust the first link at all and the second one ignored speed entirely.I also found them of not much use. The 100 VN list did mote to confuse me than to help me. i wonder how the owner/author covers the costs of his time and money to do the site. I wonder why I should ever believe it when he says he gets no money for the VPN outfits. I am not saying there is anything shady going on, just that there is no way to know which means the information cannot be confirmed.

I am jaded. I no longer trust anything online that I cannot confirm independently.
“No one has ever become poor by giving.” Anonymous
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”" Daniel Patrick Moynihan
"The good thing about science is that it’s true whether or not you believe in it." Neil DeGrasse Tyson

van p
Astronaut
Astronaut
Posts: 592
Joined: 2015-11-19, 07:15
Location: Cincinnati, OH, U.S.A.

Re: Which VPN?

Unread post by van p » 2018-06-05, 14:42

Hide My Ass! told me, "soul (sic) purpose of VPN is to encrypt the online traffic and to change the public IP address of the device, nothing more then that." Is this an accurate description of what every VPN does? Thanks.
Windows 10 Pro x64 v22H2 8GB i5-4570|Pale Moon v33.0.1 x64

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 35475
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Motala, SE
Contact:

Re: Which VPN?

Unread post by Moonchild » 2018-06-05, 15:15

van p wrote:Hide My Ass! told me, "soul (sic) purpose of VPN is to encrypt the online traffic and to change the public IP address of the device, nothing more then that." Is this an accurate description of what every VPN does? Thanks.
It's an accurate description for every VPN if used as an internet gateway. VPN services use VPN technology for gateway purposes, so it's correct.
(VPN as a technology is more than that, and traditionally had the gateway function as a side-effect/secondary goal rather than its main purpose, which was to have a remote connection to a company/private network)
Last edited by Moonchild on 2018-06-05, 15:15, edited 1 time in total.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

van p
Astronaut
Astronaut
Posts: 592
Joined: 2015-11-19, 07:15
Location: Cincinnati, OH, U.S.A.

Re: Which VPN?

Unread post by van p » 2018-06-06, 05:51

Thanks, Moonchild, for the answer. Now, another question.

Assuming a "perfect", ideal, ethical VPN company, the best (whatever that would be) VPN processes/services, no logging that would be meaningful to anybody, and no hacking, what would be the worst possible privacy outcome for a user? For example, could somebody still see every website the user visited and everything the user did (obviously defeating the purpose of using the VPN)? How reliable would such a company and its processes be at keeping the user's activity private? Hope this makes sense.
Windows 10 Pro x64 v22H2 8GB i5-4570|Pale Moon v33.0.1 x64

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 35475
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Motala, SE
Contact:

Re: Which VPN?

Unread post by Moonchild » 2018-06-06, 10:56

van p wrote:Assuming a "perfect", ideal, ethical VPN company, the best (whatever that would be) VPN processes/services, no logging that would be meaningful to anybody, and no hacking, what would be the worst possible privacy outcome for a user? For example, could somebody still see every website the user visited and everything the user did (obviously defeating the purpose of using the VPN)? How reliable would such a company and its processes be at keeping the user's activity private? Hope this makes sense.
The "worst" situation in that case would be seeing the (otherwise still public) traffic on the Internet if someone were to be able to examine the outbound traffic from the VPN gateway (having a tap on the wire directly outside of the company). But: there would be no way to connect that traffic to the originating user (unless the user identifies him/herself to a service in the clear) since from the Internet's point of view, the traffic originates from the VPN company. This is further mitigated by other users of the same gateway, making it impossible to tell which traffic belongs to which user of the gateway.
In normal situations, this isn't a concern and routing will quickly make monitoring impossible as the resulting traffic "fans out" over different routes to the destination servers.

One other potential concern would be tracking with unique IDs because that is done regardless of point of origin, and a profile -can- be built using those IDs, but it can never be connected to the user's real location, so privacy is still being retained since the traffic, once more, will always originate from the VPN gateway. This does require a bit more diligence of the user to make sure untrusted/tracking servers/services are never visited without the VPN being on.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

Phantom

Re: Which VPN?

Unread post by Phantom » 2018-06-08, 10:52

I have read that the NSA is or has focused on VPN servers. All you need to do is hack in and there you can see origin IP addresses. Proton VPN states they use a server in Switzerland to mitigate this by sending your traffic to it first before it goes through to another location. But if any hole that needs to be patched in the server no matter how small is pried open, then it's game over.
Last edited by Phantom on 2018-06-08, 10:53, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 35475
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Motala, SE
Contact:

Re: Which VPN?

Unread post by Moonchild » 2018-06-08, 18:43

Let's not go into the realm of rumor and speculation and stick to the facts.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

User avatar
TwoTankAmin
Keeps coming back
Keeps coming back
Posts: 777
Joined: 2014-07-23, 13:56
Location: New York

Re: Which VPN?

Unread post by TwoTankAmin » 2018-06-08, 18:56

I am not worried about the NSA. I am not a terrorist. I am not a spy. I am not a crook.

I just want to stop as much corporate tracking and data theft that O can. Simple. I especially want to block Verizon which is my ISP. I already do not use their DNS servers. I am about to leave their AOL Email as well since it is blantantly stealing data now. EIther I have to agree or I have to leave. BUe Bye Verizon/AOL email. the good part is I wont need to keep emptying the AOL spam from that folder soon.
“No one has ever become poor by giving.” Anonymous
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”" Daniel Patrick Moynihan
"The good thing about science is that it’s true whether or not you believe in it." Neil DeGrasse Tyson

van p
Astronaut
Astronaut
Posts: 592
Joined: 2015-11-19, 07:15
Location: Cincinnati, OH, U.S.A.

Re: Which VPN?

Unread post by van p » 2018-07-03, 14:37

Does using VPN affect a user's download speed?
Windows 10 Pro x64 v22H2 8GB i5-4570|Pale Moon v33.0.1 x64

User avatar
TwoTankAmin
Keeps coming back
Keeps coming back
Posts: 777
Joined: 2014-07-23, 13:56
Location: New York

Re: Which VPN?

Unread post by TwoTankAmin » 2018-07-03, 15:03

It does appear tthat speed may be an issue with VPNs. But here is the problem. Long ago I realized anybody with a bit of knowledge and a bias can perform tests to show any outcome they want. There is no shortage of self-proclaimed gurus will to tell you their opinion and back it up with "software test result" that will give the result needed to do this.

I have come to mistrust any such service which has financial links to the company which makes the software being reviewed. Many such sites refuse to disclose such ties. However, most decent VPNs offer a trial period. If you want to know if or how much any VPN which allows a trial might slow down what you do, you can get the answer yourself.

Also, bear in mind where you are located and what you are doing on the net can both affect one's speed.
“No one has ever become poor by giving.” Anonymous
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”" Daniel Patrick Moynihan
"The good thing about science is that it’s true whether or not you believe in it." Neil DeGrasse Tyson

van p
Astronaut
Astronaut
Posts: 592
Joined: 2015-11-19, 07:15
Location: Cincinnati, OH, U.S.A.

Re: Which VPN?

Unread post by van p » 2018-07-03, 15:18

Thanks, TwoTankAmin. I invite any additional comments, including actual, factual, practical experience with a VPN.
Windows 10 Pro x64 v22H2 8GB i5-4570|Pale Moon v33.0.1 x64

Locked