Security: Palemoon - the same amount of hashing as FF?

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yereverluvinuncleber
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Security: Palemoon - the same amount of hashing as FF?

Unread post by yereverluvinuncleber » 2018-03-18, 16:31

Bleeping Computer has just stated that the hashing algorithm for the master password feature on Firefox is applied just once rather than being applied multiple times as it really should be, meaning that the master password security feature on FF is really quite easy to break using modern fast computers and brute force hacking methods. That is disappointing news to me as I had expected better from Mozilla. All this time my passwords were not really as secure as I had expected them to be.

I thought I'd kept my eye open about Firefox's security but clearly I wasn't as well-informed as I thought I was (I use a complex 18 character password with mixed characters/numbers and unusual keys) so my salted and complex password helps keep me more secure than most (I know about keepass).

This is the link:

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/firefox-master-password-system-has-been-poorly-secured-for-the-past-9-years/

Question: Does Palemoon use the same amount of hashing or does PM use an improved level of hashing? If not then can I make a plea to the developers to improve this security feature - it would be good to say that Palemoon was more secure than firefox.
Last edited by yereverluvinuncleber on 2018-03-18, 16:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Security: Palemoon - the same amount of hashing as FF?

Unread post by loxodont » 2018-03-19, 17:18

Thx for posting that article link. I'm not so surprised.
I don't know if Pale Moon uses another method for the master password than Firefox - I only GUESS it doesn't.
That's why I only store the not so important logins into the password manager. For the more important things I still use pencil and paper and never any software that probably loads it to a cloud.

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Re: Security: Palemoon - the same amount of hashing as FF?

Unread post by Moonchild » 2018-03-19, 18:40

Encryption with the master password is symmetrical using the SDR API (Secret Decoder Ring -- yes a cheesy name) and full triple-DES cryptographic encryption through PK11SDR_Encrypt().

Triple-DES is not easy to break with brute force, at all.
Not sure where bleeping computer thinks it gets the data from but it sounds completely incorrect.
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Re: Security: Palemoon - the same amount of hashing as FF?

Unread post by Moonchild » 2018-03-19, 18:54

I've looked into this a little further and I understand now what the problem is. It's not the actual encryptions of your individual passwords (which are secure) but rather the master password itself which isn't sufficiently hashed and could possibly be figured out if it's not long enough.

Took me a bit to figure out how all these pieces fit together and exactly what the weak link is.

Issue filed: Issue #1648.

PS: Mozilla's "lockbox" solution is a non-solution -- ties in with an online service AND for several reasons isn't secure because it's Firefox Accounts, the very reason we never moved to Sync 1.5.
Last edited by Moonchild on 2018-03-19, 19:05, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Security: Palemoon - the same amount of hashing as FF?

Unread post by tooshorttoolong » 2018-03-19, 19:24

KeepassX has a "benchmark" button that determines how many rounds are needed so that it takes one second to check the password. It would be nice if PM did this automatically when the user sets the master password.

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Re: Security: Palemoon - the same amount of hashing as FF?

Unread post by loxodont » 2018-03-19, 20:00

thx for clearing this a bit to the simple users (me)

ghacks actually picked this up in a similar article:
https://www.ghacks.net/2018/03/19/firef ... -be-fixed/

As I said before I've no particular problem with it (in Pale Moon). The master password has always been - in my understanding - a rather low-level security thing anyway, like the Windows log-in, meant for people who share computers in the family and want to prevent other users to lurk into their accounts, mails, etc.
On the other hand, I didn't expect that a person with some knowledge can hack it within minutes.

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Re: Security: Palemoon - the same amount of hashing as FF?

Unread post by yereverluvinuncleber » 2018-03-19, 20:22

Moonchild, I am pleased that I raised a real issue here and even more pleased that it has been picked up for resolution/improvement. If we can make Palemoon demonstrably more secure than Firefox, what a coup!

I have always kept one eye open for vulnerabilities in FF's master password and previously it has been stated that it was definitely secure enough. I suppose changes it computing power over the years have weakened that vulnerability.

I am guessing but it sounds relatively easy (?) to improve it by increasing the number of hashes (I am hoping that is the case...) rather than changing the whole basis for encryption. That might at least serve as a workaround for the moment.

I depend upon the master password feature to secure a large number of passwords and I'm looking to a fix to regain my confidence in my browser's ability to keep me secure...
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Re: Security: Palemoon - the same amount of hashing as FF?

Unread post by Moonchild » 2018-03-20, 21:53

Please understand the vulnerability here: it is directly tied to how long your master password is (number of characters).
The only "vulnerable" part here is that an attacker can feed a hashing program with many guessed passwords to see when the hash it spits out matches the hash on the password database. When it does, the guessed password is almost certainly the password that was used as a master password.

The encryption of the password DB and using a master password is not weak or somehow "low security" but it of course stands and falls with the weakest link, in this case using 1 hashing round means the guess-hashing can be done extremely fast. Even so, if your master password is long enough, it will still require a prohibitive amount of time for brute force guessing to find the master password.
The solution to use many rounds doesn't make the protection itself significantly stronger than it already is, but it makes the guessing for each password attempt take a lot more time, making this guessing prohibitively slow with shorter/weaker master passwords.

So if you're concerned about this, update your master password to something that is significantly long (more than 10 characters is a good guideline) -- each character added makes the guessing exponentially more difficult.
Last edited by Moonchild on 2018-03-20, 22:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Security: Palemoon - the same amount of hashing as FF?

Unread post by yereverluvinuncleber » 2018-03-20, 23:25

Mine is 18 characters and always has been. :)
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Re: Security: Palemoon - the same amount of hashing as FF?

Unread post by yereverluvinuncleber » 2018-04-17, 17:49

This change didn't make it into 27.9 https://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon/issues/1648

Hoping for it in a minor release, is that likely?
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Re: Security: Palemoon - the same amount of hashing as FF?

Unread post by Phantom » 2018-04-18, 05:46

I never did trust the storage of passwords in a browser. I have to wonder why Bcrypt can't be used for the master password?
Last edited by Phantom on 2018-04-18, 05:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Security: Palemoon - the same amount of hashing as FF?

Unread post by Moonchild » 2018-04-18, 07:04

yereverluvinuncleber wrote:This change didn't make it into 27.9 https://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon/issues/1648

Hoping for it in a minor release, is that likely?
It's on our radar. It is however not as straightforward as it seems at first glance, and some experimentation has only resulted in the password store becoming inaccessible, which is of course the last thing we want to happen to our users.
I'm not rushing this out the door without very thorough testing -- and please do read my previous post: if you are concerned someone might get their hands on your password store, simply make sure you use a significantly-long master password. Every character added multiplies the time required to guess it by a factor 100 or so (making the "industry-standard" value of 10,000 rounds equal to about 2 extra characters added to your password). The original article already states that it is only an issue with simplistic, weak passwords.
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Re: Security: Palemoon - the same amount of hashing as FF?

Unread post by Moonchild » 2018-04-18, 09:46

Phantom wrote:I have to wonder why Bcrypt can't be used for the master password?
NSS doesn't have a bcrypt implementation. Our password store crypto depends on what NSS can provide to us.
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Re: Security: Palemoon - the same amount of hashing as FF?

Unread post by yereverluvinuncleber » 2018-04-18, 14:51

Moonchild wrote:It's on our radar.
Thanks for the feedback. I'm just keeping an eye on this one as security for me, is quite an issue. I have several family members who all use Palemoon, none of which can be trusted to use a long password. Mine is very long and so safe but others are still vulnerable.
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Re: Security: Palemoon - the same amount of hashing as FF?

Unread post by Moonchild » 2018-04-18, 15:22

This improvement will be in the new milestone. Because of issues implementing more rounds in the current platform for v27 and it being easily mitigated with a sufficiently long and complex password, it doesn't have extreme priority.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
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