Good guys & bad guys

[gracious1]

They left out Richard Stallman's barebones page:

https://stallman.org/

Who needs pictures?

Who needs Richard Stallman?

Well, gee whiz, I thought he was one of the good guys?
I don't agree with everything he writes, certainly not, but he has been an important figure for free software.

[Moonchild]

Okay, I'll lay it down -- note, this is my personal opinion, please do not reflect this on Pale Moon; I'm speaking purely as myself here.

Mr. Stallman is the worst kind of purist. Purists are, by definition, extremists. Although I can see that at some points in time, extremist behavior can be useful to jog the masses, that's not what the case is with him. He continues to crusade in infuriating ways for "software freedom", long after it was important that such a voice be heard. It's the incessant, stubborn FSF stance (one could call it dogma) that has caused the Linux world -- oh, pardon me, the "GNU/Linux" world -- to become splintered into hundreds of distros, and a blurring of lines of what one particular software's or technology's purpose is. After all, everyone, according to him, should have the freedom to make everything do everything.
At the same time, he insists on wanting "free" software and derivatives be stamped with his identifying marks at all times, or even become copyrighted to his foundation if he can have it. He'll take any opportunity to tell you what to do and decide for you, and to buy his products. How hypocrite is that?
Then add remarks like "I'm glad he's gone" when Steve Jobs (who has been a very important figure for software progress, as well) died... and I really do think nobody needs anyone like Richard Stallman.

[badnick]

The "purist" are not necesarelly "extremist". If I don't want my wife to fuck another, that does not mean I am "extremist"

[Moonraker]

The "purist" are not necesarelly "extremist". If I don't want my wife to fuck another, that does not mean I am "extremist"

dont see your comparison to be honest,maybe your wife has as we say in england.."loose knicker elastic."

[badnick]

The "purist" are not necesarelly "extremist". If I don't want my wife to fuck another, that does not mean I am "extremist"

dont see your comparison to be honest,maybe your wife has as we say in england.."loose knicker elastic."

Yes,maybe is not the right comparison but thank God I do not live in England, the trend to you is to have a same sex "wife"

[Thehandyman1957]

,maybe your wife has as we say in england.."loose knicker elastic."

Hahaha, I almost spit my lunch out of my mouth as I was reading this. Now that's funny right there.

[hobbledehoy899]

Then add remarks like "I'm glad he's gone" when Steve Jobs (who has been a very important figure for software progress, as well) died...

You missed the part where he specifically stated that he wasn't glad specifically because Steve died, I bet he'd been just as glad if Steve had retired from the computer business. Besides, even the latest versions of macOS include a terminal emulator that uses the Bourne Again Shell!

[Moonchild]

It's still not something you say in the same breath right after someone dies. "Sorry he's dead, but good riddance"...?

Well, if that isn't enough, then have a read through the latest blog post with actual content (other than photos of all the places he visited on foundation money) and see how you like twisted interpretations and misrepresentations of current technology on the 'net:
https://www.fsf.org/blogs/rms/a-message-from-rms-support-the-free-software-foundation

Take note of e.g. how he says JavaScript is apparently "installed in a user's browser", and how he asserts that everything proprietary has "vicious back doors", let alone vilifying business- and service-protecting automatic updates of firmware on commercial mobile devices as a "felony".

[half-moon]

Off-topic:
Is it just me or has the this sub-forum become cancerous?

[Lunix]

Off-topic:
All this sub-forum does is give Moonchild extra work he doesn't need. I would be OK with him banning all talk of everything besides Pale Moon itself and topics that directly relate to the browser.

[coffeebreak]

Off-topic:
Is it just me or has the this sub-forum become cancerous?

Off-topic:
No, this sub-forum has not become cancerous.
A couple of individuals used poor judgment when they posted. (And I'm NOT referring to anything in THIS thread.) Those posts (in OTHER threads) were dealt with in short order.

Please don't characterize the whole General Discussion board based on those incidents.

Off-topic:
All this sub-forum does is give Moonchild extra work he doesn't need. I would be OK with him banning all talk of everything besides Pale Moon itself and topics that directly relate to the browser.

Off-topic:
I have to say, I would not be OK with that.
To "padlock" general discussion entirely? I profoundly hope that doesn't happen.

When problems come up, address the individuals responsible, please don't put general discussion off bounds for everyone due to a few incidents, even though that approach requires time.

We all understand that our concern for the browser (and for the people who use it) is why we're here. And it is Moonchild's project, forum, and decision alone.

But this is NOT a corporate workplace, with the regimentation and control that connotes. It's a community project comprised of full, living human beings who volunteer to participate. The project, Pale Moon itself, concerns retaining and supporting technology that is friendly to human choice and human decision-making. A nuclear response like that would, in my view diminish and damage the forum, the community, and be in conflict with the values that I hope infuse the project.

The answer to problematic posts is that individuals must take responsibility, exercise judgment, be thoughtful in posting. Every person here is capable of doing that provided they'e willing.

[half-moon]

Off-topic:
Is it just me or has the this sub-forum become cancerous?

Off-topic:
No, this sub-forum has not become cancerous.
A couple of individuals used poor judgment when they posted. (And I'm NOT referring to anything in THIS thread.) Those posts (in OTHER threads) were dealt with in short order.

Please don't characterize the whole General Discussion board based on those incidents.

Off-topic:
I don't know why you seem to think I'm generalizing the whole board because I wasn't (or at least it wasn't my intent).

[JodyThornton]

Off-topic:
Is it just me or has the this sub-forum become cancerous?

Off-topic:
No, this sub-forum has not become cancerous.
A couple of individuals used poor judgment when they posted. (And I'm NOT referring to anything in THIS thread.) Those posts (in OTHER threads) were dealt with in short order.

Please don't characterize the whole General Discussion board based on those incidents.

Off-topic:
I don't know why you seem to think I'm generalizing the whole board because I wasn't (or at least it wasn't my intent).

He meant the sub-forum. He referred to it a "General Discussion" Board

[coffeebreak]

I don't know why you seem to think I'm generalizing the whole board because I wasn't (or at least it wasn't my intent).

He meant the sub-forum. He referred to it a "General Discussion" Board

Thank you, JodyThornton. That's what I meant. :)

@half-moon, I was referring to the "General Discussion" section of Pale Moon's forum.

[gracious1]

It's the incessant, stubborn FSF stance (one could call it dogma) that has caused the Linux world -- oh, pardon me, the "GNU/Linux" world -- to become splintered into hundreds of distros, and a blurring of lines of what one particular software's or technology's purpose is.

I think he has a point regarding to calling it GNU/Linux rather than Linux, if what he says here is accurate.

You raise some really good points in your response that are food for thought.

One question, wouldn't the splintering have happened anyway, given the nature of free and/or open-source software, since almost anyone can create a fork for any purpose?

[Moonchild]

I think he has a point regarding to calling it GNU/Linux rather than Linux, if what he says here is accurate.

I corrected myself, did I not?
The point there is that everyone except RMS and his disciples calls it Linux in normal conversation. Just like everyone calls Microsoft Windows just "Windows", and everyone calls IBM OS/2 just "OS/2", etc. And to be fair, the Linux kernel is what makes it tick. GNU is mostly a collection of system tools that makes the O.S. complete, but IMHO has been superseded by more modern tools and a kernel that has nothing to do with the origins. So, at most tacking GNU/ onto it is correct for historical reasons only.

One question, wouldn't the splintering have happened anyway, given the nature of free and/or open-source software, since almost anyone can create a fork for any purpose?

Definitely not to the degree it has. There's a big difference between having Open Source software, and driving people to actually be encouraged and pushed to create forks on a whim for every purpose instead of contributing to a larger whole. Stallman's presence has actually held back development in the Open Source spirit and community because people would rather fork, make a change and use it or try to market it than taking Open Source software, making a change/enhancement and submitting that back upstream.

Look at practical situations: How many real forks are there of Mozilla, that aren't just "I make this small change, rename it and publish"? I think you can count those on one finger. Why would that be? Because the FSF has not been involved, because Mozilla code isn't GPL licensed (and the MPL isn't GPL compatible) so they don't want it.

[Tomtiger]

Hi,

... and I really do think nobody needs anyone like Richard Stallman.

he might be a fundamentalist, but in my opinion we need more like him. I see no need to confirm 100% to his targets but it is important, that there is someone to keep these targets remembered.

Take note of e.g. how he says JavaScript is apparently "installed in a user's browser", and how he asserts that everything proprietary has "vicious back doors", let alone vilifying business- and service-protecting automatic updates of firmware on commercial mobile devices as a "felony".

He does not say that everything proprietary has a backdoor and he is not so wrong regarding firmware updates on mobile phones. Actually several European privacy protection laws make it illegal to use mobile phones in a business to store or transfer personal data of eg. customers. If the law was executed as intended. Even Windows would be illegal for that purposes.

We need at least legal backgrounds regulating data access on eg. mobile phones. We need people like RMS to create awareness for these things in our governments.

It's still not something you say in the same breath right after someone dies. "Sorry he's dead, but good riddance"...?

Correct, to say that in that situation is very irreverent, still what he said is - IMHO - absolutely correct. NeXT Step was my first unix like OS and I adored Jobs in that time, still he was a pioneer taking away users rights. Starting with the first Macintosh (128K) - not so much with the NeXT - the idea was to make people pay lots of money for a computer and still let the manufacturer decide what runs on it.


I also cannot see how RMS could have held back development. People could have taken BSD licensed software and some did (like IBM that have chosen to use NetBSD on some of their thin clients). Without the GPL I would not have the source code of my dect phone and I could not install OpenWRT in my wifi router leaving me with a security risk.

Proprietary software would not have resulted in less distributions, just look at the Unix development in the late 1980ies and early 1990ies. Every company made their own (only little compatible) Unix derivate! To fight this splintering the ACE was founded. This splintering is a unix thing.


Today (and at least for some time) RMS has to be seen as a lobbyist, his value is the spreading of awareness of problems in our governments. To keep his dogma is a necessary influence to create political compromises. You got to keep an extreme position so that the compromise is well balanced in the end.

Cheers