For all Win8+Metro haters

[gabranth]

First, only Windows 8 Pro will have the DVD playback feature that is going to be sold as an addon. And before people start whining about it being sold as an addon, codec licensing costs money, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to compare how much a retail Windows 7 Home Premium goes for when compared to any Windows 8 PC consumer version.

First, there are free codec packs, just look for Shark007 codecs for any video and sound format. So if a guy gives them for free, why not Microsoft, huh? Because they want that people buy the Premium version at any cost. In my country several new computers comes with the "Starter" version, which is a piece of crap that even don't allow you to change the wallpaper unless you buy *again* your copy of Windows as "Home version". And in Windows 8 you will need to buy add-ons too, and later Microsoft gets mad that people prefer to format their HDD and install a "backup" copy instead.

that happens in alot of counties its to add value to the OEM product will while keeping costs down if they didn't include an os it could put off less computer literate users if they included home edition it would increase the price again putting off users so they compromise with the starter edition

[lyceus]

Actually, you seem to belong to the same bunch that hopelessly hopped on the Vista bashing bandwagon, so I'm done arguing with unreasonable people. Go use legacy XP, that virus haven, be happy and have a nice day.

Actually you never was fooled with those stickers that said "compatible with Windows Vista" where the hardware clearly was not compatible, to stick some new audio and video drivers plus a fancy VGA webcam in a low range laptop and sell it with Windows Vista was a dirty move of several OEMs. (Dell, Acer, HP for name some) Really it's difficult to think that Windows Vista was a good OS when it take up to 10 minutes to load up, in a *NEW* unboxed machine. Less funny is to give maintenance to those machines and try to answer "why my new computer is so slow?". People asked me a lot to *downgrade" to windows XP where their machines worked fine.

It's fine that you like Windows 7 and 8 and you can afford the hardware that runs them as a dream. But don't assume that because you have that advantage all the world have your same level, a lot of mundane people cannot use the last hardware they just use what they can afford.

FYI: All anitvirus software vendors gives support windows XP, so the virus heaven is mostly guilt of a lazy user not their OS choice.

[lyceus]

that happens in alot of counties its to add value to the OEM product will while keeping costs down if they didn't include an os it could put off less computer literate users if they included home edition it would increase the price again putting off users so they compromise with the starter edition

I know that OEM try to reduce the costs of their products, but several poor people uses their savings for buy a laptop or PC to their children as they want they use it for school. In a poor country like Mexico (daily salary as low as 3.5 USD), just 30-40% of the population have computers, now imagine the disappointment of those people when they see that their kids cannot use more than 2 apps at the same time because they need to pay 2500 pesos for unlock the OEM version to Home version. These computers retail from 5000 to 7000 pesos. So this model of "pay for use the whole computer that you just brought" is just insane. Under this model is really difficult to follow the legal path.

Note: 1 USD = 13.50 pesos

[tribaljet]

First, there are free codec packs, just look for Shark007 codecs for any video and sound format. So if a guy gives them for free, why not Microsoft, huh? Because they want that people buy the Premium version at any cost. In my country several new computers comes with the "Starter" version, which is a piece of crap that even don't allow you to change the wallpaper unless you buy *again* your copy of Windows as "Home version". And in Windows 8 you will need to buy add-ons too, and later Microsoft gets mad that people prefer to format their HDD and install a "backup" copy instead.

It supposed that this happens but it seems that Windows 7 made dance the HDD and is slower than the XP 64 partition.

Actually still *IS* valid, since manufacturers expect that we toss up away digital recordings, printers, scanners, IR ports, PDAs, phones, digital cameras and other gadgets that doesn't have support for Windows Vista/7 nor for Windows 8. I won't change all my hardware just because Windows Vista/7 and 8 don't like them and more if the hardware is functional and works fine. I'm sorry but not all people are a moneybags for "update" those things every year.

Agreed, and it's quite unfortunate that Microsoft doesn't rely on free codecs, but then again that's not really much of a surprise, as most codec endeavors of them have been linked with corporations they're very friendly with. And yes, Starter editions of both Windows Vista and Windows 7 were quite impaired, feature wise, and not the most correct move for Microsoft to ship that edition to emerging markets instead of Home Premium.

Both Windows Vista and Windows 7 run their fetching algorithm more aggresively than the initial version present on Windows XP, and that's made all the worse when indexing takes a toll on I/O. Again, while all that can be configured or entirely disabled, it would be nice to have it that way by default, but then again it was never Microsoft's intention to do so, and to a certain extent I can understand that if less knowledgeable users begin using such OSes the way they were intended to be used, they can be reasonably adequate. This, however, does not suit my computer usage, it's unfortunate.

Most non ancient hardware have at least Vista drivers that can either work out of the box on Windows 7, set some compatibility flags that makes them work, or even some manual work on installation files would do the trick. Obviously there is hardware that simply will refuse to work, also due to lazy driver development, but considering that there are even devices working on Windows 7 with XP drivers, issues that arise with incompatible hardware that is essential to work might mean a VM is required, dual booting, or any of the above mentioned workarounds.

[tribaljet]

Actually you never was fooled with those stickers that said "compatible with Windows Vista" where the hardware clearly was not compatible, to stick some new audio and video drivers plus a fancy VGA webcam in a low range laptop and sell it with Windows Vista was a dirty move of several OEMs. (Dell, Acer, HP for name some) Really it's difficult to think that Windows Vista was a good OS when it take up to 10 minutes to load up, in a *NEW* unboxed machine. Less funny is to give maintenance to those machines and try to answer "why my new computer is so slow?". People asked me a lot to *downgrade" to windows XP where their machines worked fine.

It's fine that you like Windows 7 and 8 and you can afford the hardware that runs them as a dream. But don't assume that because you have that advantage all the world have your same level, a lot of mundane people cannot use the last hardware they just use what they can afford.

FYI: All anitvirus software vendors gives support windows XP, so the virus heaven is mostly guilt of a lazy user not their OS choice.

Ah, the x OS compatible/ready stickers The whole Vista debocle came down to a simple, yet devastating, driver issue, as kernel mode drivers caused havoc on pre-SP1 Vista. A clean Vista installation doesn't boot as fast as Windows 7, yet it's still quite above the mess most OEMs packed on laptops and pre-built desktop PCs. But I'll give you that most low end PCs released during the initial Vista launch suffered tremendously with low performance, along with every other computer due to the driver issue.

And before you start making assumptions on whether I can or cannot afford hardware, keep in mind I'm running Windows 7 on a 2005 laptop, precisely one of those cases you mentioned that as an unboxed machine, it took forever to boot Vista. And if dates seem mismatched, the computer was an old model I acquired a few years after Vista was launched.

FYI, XP's kernel is quite flawed when compared to Vista/7/8, and security software isn't a magic bullet that makes XP as secure as any of those newer OSes.

[tribaljet]

that happens in alot of counties its to add value to the OEM product will while keeping costs down if they didn't include an os it could put off less computer literate users if they included home edition it would increase the price again putting off users so they compromise with the starter edition

I have always been puzzled as to why Starter editions were made available in the first place, when Microsoft has OEM-only versions (like Vista/7 Starter editions) that have a more complete feature set while still being based on the same OS. Besides that, having computers ship with a *nix distro would help keep costs down, and localized retailers could have discounted prices for full blown MS OSes if buyers were interested.

[lyceus]

Obviously there is hardware that simply will refuse to work, also due to lazy driver development, but considering that there are even devices working on Windows 7 with XP drivers, issues that arise with incompatible hardware that is essential to work might mean a VM is required, dual booting, or any of the above mentioned workarounds.

For made your day, my VM program is not supported for Windows 7. All VM "free" options do not support USB devices, so I need to stick on Windows XP for use my phone, pen tablet, scanner, printer, etc. Yes some of them have Vista drivers, but often are low quality as the vendor prefer that people uses new hardware.

As example, my Lexmark X5100 has Vista drivers, but if I do a print job, the driver hams the print spooler. So I need to reboot the computer for print again.

What is the support given by Lexmark?

1. Keep rebooting your PC for print, have fun!
2. Go to Microsoft Knowledge Database and learn how to stop and restart the print spooler service and job under Vista.
3. (Recommended) Go to online shop and buy a new one.

I prefer take it with humor.

[tribaljet]

For made your day, my VM program is not supported to Windows 7. All VM "free" options do not support USB devices, so I need to stick on Windows XP for use my phone, pen tablet, scanner, printer, etc. Yes some of them have Vista drivers, but often are low quality as the vendor prefer that people uses new hardware.

As example my Lexmark X5100 has Vista drivers, but if I do print job the driver hams the print spooler. So I need to reboot the computer for print again.

What is the support given by Lexmark?

1. Keep rebooting your PC for print, have fun!
2. Go to Microsoft Knowledge Database and learn how to stop and restart the print spooler service and job.
3. (Recommended) Go to online shop and buy a new one.

I prefer take it with humor.

Which VM software do you use? The free VMware Player and VirtualBox both support USB 2.0.

Well, I fought with software suites for my current yet old phone, and it's a clear case of the manufacturer wanting me to get a new phone to use the new suite. But the thing is, the latest version of the similarly named suite from the manufacturer performs better and is more feature packed than the new offerings, on my phone. Luckily, it still supported Windows 7, but I do understand what you mean quite well, especially in terms of soundcards and DACs with proprietary drivers that simply require a specific OS, nothing newer nor older.

While it's unfortunate that you do have issues with print spooler glitching out and freezing, the thing is that you can print
EDIT: After a quick search, it seems the X5130 driver works with the X5100 model. Also, if symptoms repeat themselves, do try compatibility flags on the driver installer itself, this considering you're using an installer and not doing a manual driver installation.

It's a bit offensive that hardware manufacturers work under the planned obsolence method, on hardware and software alike, and I truly sympathize with your situation.

[lyceus]

And before you start making assumptions on whether I can or cannot afford hardware, keep in mind I'm running Windows 7 on a 2005 laptop, precisely one of those cases you mentioned that as an unboxed machine, it took forever to boot Vista. And if dates seem mismatched, the computer was an old model I acquired a few years after Vista was launched.

FYI, XP's kernel is quite flawed when compared to Vista/7/8, and security software isn't a magic bullet that makes XP as secure as any of those newer OSes.

Windows XP clearly is a dying platform, I'm not blind of this. But Microsoft doesn't seem to help with windows 8. Practices like OEM versions, cheap hardware, bloated PCs with crappyware, surface, "app stores", touch screens doesn't help a lot for people for move to safer and faster OS.

While people seems to bash a lot Windows 7, most of us will move by force to this version when Windows XP is unsupported at all in mid 2014. Also consider that after all a scanner or printer soon or later will die and we must save for buy another, so our complains are valid while the hardware is alive or Win XP is supported. By other side there are some legacy hardware that cannot be replaced easily like a scanner or printer, like in medical facilities, airports, defense and industry, they have a real trouble in their hands. Some of them even aren't allowed to install a service pack, because a bug can lead in a country-wide blackout as example. Neither Windows Vista/7/8 are not a solution for them.

All this hype about Windows 8 is just hype until we can see clearly how good or bad is on the streets. The signs looks bad so far, but people love to touch screens and buy apps in a store. Maybe in some years there will a thread about "Why do you still use Windows 7 and don't move to Windows 9?".

[lyceus]

Which VM software do you use? The free VMware Player and VirtualBox both support USB 2.0.
It's a bit offensive that hardware manufacturers work under the planned obsolence method, on hardware and software alike, and I truly sympathize with your situation.

Long time ago I wiped the Vista partition and installed Windows 7 for test. Lexmark says "just install the driver for Vista too", but the lots of complains on the forums say this doesn't fix any bug. I print in the old fashion XP as I said, until I need a new printer.

If Virtual Box finally can accept the Lexmark X5100 maybe this will be a rock less in the path to Windows 7. Last time I installed Windows XP in VB and plugged the printer, I got a message like "I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that no USB printers can print here.".

[gabranth]

that happens in alot of counties its to add value to the OEM product will while keeping costs down if they didn't include an os it could put off less computer literate users if they included home edition it would increase the price again putting off users so they compromise with the starter edition

I have always been puzzled as to why Starter editions were made available in the first place, when Microsoft has OEM-only versions (like Vista/7 Starter editions) that have a more complete feature set while still being based on the same OS. Besides that, having computers ship with a *nix distro would help keep costs down, and localized retailers could have discounted prices for full blown MS OSes if buyers were interested.

there are legal issues with unix os's and its highly likly that they have have contracts to only sell microsoft products or to limit the number of rival products they sell they may even pay oem to only sell there product (see intels wiki page for legal problems in the eu) and they can sell a pc with a proper OS along with budget starter edition versions but it will cost more and they can't only sell the home edition because i rival will come alone and sell starter edition pc's and undercut them

[tribaljet]

Windows XP clearly is a dying platform, I'm not blind of this. But Microsoft doesn't seem to help with windows 8. Practices like OEM versions, cheap hardware, bloated PCs with crappyware, surface, "app stores", touch screens doesn't help a lot for people for move to safer and faster OS.

While people seems to bash a lot Windows 7, most of us will move by force to this version when Windows XP is unsupported at all in mid 2014. Also consider that after all a scanner or printer soon or later will die and we must save for buy another, so our complains are valid while the hardware is alive or Win XP is supported. By other side there are some legacy hardware that cannot be replaced easily like a scanner or printer, like in medical facilities, airports, defense and industry, they have a real trouble in their hands. Some of them even aren't allowed to install a service pack, because a bug can lead in a country-wide blackout as example. Neither Windows Vista/7/8 are not a solution for them.

All this hype about Windows 8 is just hype until we can see clearly how good or bad is on the streets. The signs looks bad so far, but people love to touch screens and buy apps in a store. Maybe in some years there will a thread about "Why do you still use Windows 7 and don't move to Windows 9?".

Wait, people bash on Windows 7? I can understand, to an extent, people bashing Vista, which is something that I would never use again as Windows 7 is available, being superior in just about every way. But then again, you must be talking of the Windows XP crowd, and that's a whole different story

Indeed there are entire hardware platforms that simply won't work outside the OS they were designed to work on in the first place, and that particular situation would force a significant upgrade.

Windows 8 UI signs are awful, in my opinion, while performance signs are quite good. While the UI can be mostly customized, core performance can't be brought beyond what the OS is capable of, and that alone makes Windows 8 a valid consideration in my sincere opinion. But in any case, it's likely that Windows 7 will become the most used OS for quite some time, despite Microsoft reducing the OS release cycle time.

[tribaljet]

there are legal issues with unix os's and its highly likly that they have have contracts to only sell microsoft products or to limit the number of rival products they sell they may even pay oem to only sell there product (see intels wiki page for legal problems in the eu) and they can sell a pc with a proper OS along with budget starter edition versions but it will cost more and they can't only sell the home edition because i rival will come alone and sell starter edition pc's and undercut them

Well, there are many retailers throughout the globe that sell computers, desktops and laptops, without Windows, offering the option to have no OS preinstalled or have some Linux distro. Above all, having options is the best course of action, as people might already own a Windows license or simply not desiring to use Windows at all.

[Moonchild]

...win8 is going to be a hit so there not reason for them to nerf a feature everyone wants...

I think you haven't followed the feedback to the introduction of Metro, nor the fact that Microsoft itself says they want you to buy a touch-enabled computer just for the O.S.

but don't worry we will eventually have win9 and you won't be able to use palemoon on that unless the developer pays license fee's so win8 won't seem so bad for long

I think people will stay on Windows 7 in that case. Life cycle for Windows 7 is up to... what, 2020? (*checks*) That's 8 years down the road. I think people will simply not worry until that time.

EDIT: Mainstream support (i.e.: free personal support by Microsoft itself) is up to 2015, with extended support (security patches and updates and paid support) up to 2020.

Windows 7
End of mainstream support: January 12, 2015
End of extended support: January 14, 2020

Source: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/products/lifecycle#section_2

10 years of support (5 years Mainstream Support and 5 years Extended Support) at the supported service pack level for Business, Developer and Desktop Operating System products

Source: http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?LN=en-us&x=10&y=11

[stravinsky]

...win8 is going to be a hit so there not reason for them to nerf a feature everyone wants...

meanwhile, in the real world, feedback to win8 on desktops has been awful.
though i read on one site that the win8 on smartphones is good, and in one case an Apple fanboi got converted to Win8. If win8 can convert them, its worth a try on phones.

[gabranth]

...win8 is going to be a hit so there not reason for them to nerf a feature everyone wants...

meanwhile, in the real world, feedback to win8 on desktops has been awful.
though i read on one site that the win8 on smartphones is good, and in one case an Apple fanboi got converted to Win8. If win8 can convert them, its worth a try on phones.

people give negative feedback all the time but at the end of the day what really matters are sales and although i would like win8 to suffer from poor sales in not very optimistic

[gabranth]

I think people will stay on Windows 7 in that case. Life cycle for Windows 7 is up to... what, 2020? (*checks*) That's 8 years down the road. I think people will simply not worry until that time.

EDIT: Mainstream support (i.e.: free personal support by Microsoft itself) is up to 2015, with extended support (security patches and updates and paid support) up to 2020.

thats what im doing gives me 3 years to learn how to jail break your win9 pc so you can install palemoon from its website

[Moonchild]

thats what im doing gives me 3 years to learn how to jail break your win9 pc so you can install palemoon from its website

Gives you 8 years - unless you need premium support or fixes for "miscellaneous bugs" ;P

[gabranth]

thats what im doing gives me 3 years to learn how to jail break your win9 pc so you can install palemoon from its website

Gives you 8 years - unless you need premium support or fixes for "miscellaneous bugs" ;P

i thought you had to pay for security updates after 2015 it wouldn't be for bug fixes since microsoft doesn't seems fixes them

[Moonchild]

Check the second article I linked to above.