browser for old system

Old discussions related to the Android/mobile version of Pale Moon.
mike236

browser for old system

Unread post by mike236 » 2020-08-06, 07:29

Could you add support for android 1+? There is one project where your browser adapted to xp, called mypal. Unfortunately for android nothing similar exists.

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Re: browser for old system

Unread post by Moonchild » 2020-08-06, 08:15

I guess you didn't get the memo: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=24249

We no longer target Android as a platform for anything Pale Moon.
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mike236

Re: browser for old system

Unread post by mike236 » 2020-08-06, 08:22

why your team is not interested ? what is the goal of the project ? for mainstream everything exists already. i think it would make sense to revive xp and android 1 by creating a maintained browser for them.

New Tobin Paradigm

Re: browser for old system

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2020-08-06, 08:30

Over our collective rotting corpses.

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Re: browser for old system

Unread post by Potkeny » 2020-08-06, 08:32

Pale Moon aims to provide a browser with a large degree of freedom in how people want to browse the web, which tools or extensions they wish to use, and which feedback users want to see ("Your browser, Your way"™); efficiency, after all, should not stop at the engine of a browser, but extend to all parts of it, including the user interface by sticking to standard user interface conventions and ergonomics, as well as proper visual integration with the operating system.
If you think "for mainstream everything exists already", Pale Moon might not be for you.

mike236

Re: browser for old system

Unread post by mike236 » 2020-08-06, 09:05

Potkeny wrote:
2020-08-06, 08:32
Pale Moon aims to provide a browser with a large degree of freedom in how people want to browse the web, which tools or extensions they wish to use, and which feedback users want to see ("Your browser, Your way"™); efficiency, after all, should not stop at the engine of a browser, but extend to all parts of it, including the user interface by sticking to standard user interface conventions and ergonomics, as well as proper visual integration with the operating system.
This can be read in description of every browser. Alternative to stupid mainstream is needed. Mainstream - is throwing away equipment and reinstalling system every year. For desktop such alternative can be xp (or any old linux) and for mobile phones - early version of android, a working browser for them is needed.

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Re: browser for old system

Unread post by moonbat » 2020-08-06, 09:38

The team simply lacks the resources to maintain the browser on Android that too after the switch to UXP from version 27 onwards. Right now on Android I would ironically recommend Fennec, a Firefox build with all the tracking stripped out, and it supports whatever mobile targeted web extensions are there on the Firefox addons site.
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Re: browser for old system

Unread post by Moonchild » 2020-08-06, 09:39

mike236 wrote:
2020-08-06, 09:05
This can be read in description of every browser.
Really? Does Firefox 79 look like a native application to you? Is it truly customizable?
mike236 wrote:
2020-08-06, 09:05
For desktop such alternative can be xp (or any old linux) and for mobile phones - early version of android, a working browser for them is needed.
No.

If you want to use museum-grade hardware, you are stuck with museum-grade software.That is just the way it is.
if you want this to happen you will have to find people willing to do this without us. We will not be in any way affiliated with any such folly efforts to try and bring modern software to bygone-era hardware. Good luck if you decide to try!
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Re: browser for old system

Unread post by Moonchild » 2020-08-06, 09:40

moonbat wrote:
2020-08-06, 09:38
The team simply lacks the resources to maintain the browser on Android that too after the switch to UXP from version 27 onwards. Right now on Android I would ironically recommend Fennec, a Firefox build with all the tracking stripped out, and it supports whatever mobile targeted web extensions are there on the Firefox addons site.
Fennec still won't run on Android 1.
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Re: browser for old system

Unread post by moonbat » 2020-08-06, 09:42

Ah, I missed that. Talk about niche within a niche where we're concerned!
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mike236

Re: browser for old system

Unread post by mike236 » 2020-08-06, 09:51

Your team is positioning itself as volunteers working to bring something different. If you are working for mainstream you are working for the same sh*t and it is not different. Smartphones due to mainstream policies have become one time use items like toilet paper. I see today android 4 being sold, but it is not supported anymore! So i should pay 200$ for toilet paper, with which tomorrow i cannot access any site ? With desktop situation is the same, only difference that some developers continue to support old systems (linux antix), but not clear for how long. By creating an alternative, which comes down to a working web browser, you could've saved millions of dollars of equipment going into garbage.

New Tobin Paradigm

Re: browser for old system

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2020-08-06, 09:58

mike236 wrote:
2020-08-06, 09:51
toilet paper
Looks like someone doesn't know how to use the three sea shells.

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Re: browser for old system

Unread post by moonbat » 2020-08-06, 10:05

mike236 wrote:
2020-08-06, 09:51
Your team is positioning itself as volunteers working to bring something different.
You have that backwards - the team is focused on providing the same browsing experience for desktop users that used to be current before the madness of touchscreen UI and minimalism forced on everything took over. It is the rest of the world that has become different.
mike236 wrote:
2020-08-06, 09:51
Smartphones due to mainstream policies have become one time use items like toilet paper. I see today android 4 being sold, but it is not supported anymore! So i should pay 200$ for toilet paper, with which tomorrow i cannot access any site ?
Nobody is forcing you to treat it like 'toilet paper'. My OnePlus 3 smartphone turns 4 years old at the end of this month and is working great with a custom ROM on Android 9. Mobile phones are forced to a shorter shelf life because of having sealed batteries that only last 2-3 years at the most.

On the desktop, if for example you choose to run an ancient operating system like Windows XP that even Microsoft stopped supporting 6 years ago, or a 32 bit processor when the world has long moved on to 64 bit, or an obscure Linux distribution that doesn't play well with the generic binaries that the team publishes, then that's your choice and you cannot expect others to specially cater to you moreso when you're a dwindling minority.
New Tobin Paradigm wrote:
2020-08-06, 09:58
Looks like someone doesn't know how to use the three sea shells.
:lol:
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mike236

Re: browser for old system

Unread post by mike236 » 2020-08-06, 10:38

In my understanding if i buy a device i should be able to use it until end of it's service life, maybe without support and security, but manufacturer must ensure basic functionality to access any website, enter passwords and capcha. Since main function of computeri is access web it is job of manufacturer to provide functional browser for indefinite time. Modern devices are worse than 10 year old, because my nokia x2 does not have sealed battery ! This means they are designed already as one time use. World needs one constant model of laptop and smartphone, with available spares for them and oss with functionality for indefinite time, as alternative to modern idiotism. Taking cheapness of electronic production in China it is not impossible to do.

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Re: browser for old system

Unread post by Isengrim » 2020-08-06, 10:43

mike236 wrote:
2020-08-06, 09:51
Smartphones due to mainstream policies have become one time use items like toilet paper. I see today android 4 being sold, but it is not supported anymore!
While I agree that computer and phone hardware (and many, many other things) are becoming more "disposable" and that this is terrible, this team alone is in no position to reverse that trend. It's going to take a world wide cultural shift in consumer habits to change the way companies manufacture and support their products. This is a cultural problem and it requires a cultural solution, not a software one.
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mike236

Re: browser for old system

Unread post by mike236 » 2020-08-06, 11:09

Isengrim wrote:
2020-08-06, 10:43
This is a cultural problem and it requires a cultural solution, not a software one.
Is it really so difficult to make a browser that would say FOR ANDROID 1+ ? That would solve all problems, you could buy any phone without caring version of android.

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Re: browser for old system

Unread post by Moonchild » 2020-08-06, 11:13

mike236 wrote:
2020-08-06, 10:38
but manufacturer must ensure basic functionality to access any website, enter passwords and capcha. Since main function of computeri is access web it is job of manufacturer to provide functional browser for indefinite time.
The responsibility of the manufacturer is to provide you with hardware to specification, and to provide a reasonable warranty on workmanship and components. It is not the responsibility of the manufacturer to indefinitely provide you with updates to software you have installed on it, nor to provide service to users beyond what is directly related to their product.

Especially in the mobile market you are looking at a relatively short shelf-life for expensive products. Because of the high value, of course they want to still sell hardware that is only compatible with Android 4, because that is expensive stock to go unsold -- and it is up to the buyer to understand that if they purchase an Android 4 device in 2020, that the majority of available apps will no longer properly run on it because they target much later versions of the system software running on it. These different version of Android are not compatible; apps written for Android 9 will not run on Android 4. Apps written for Android 3 will not run on Android 7+, etc.
Of course that doesn't invalidate the smartphone as-is because it still does what it says: it is a phone that also has computing capabilities, and the software that comes with it will work just fine on the hardware out-of-the-box. You just can't expect any of that software to be updated and in the case of connectivity software for internet use, you can't expect that old software to work without error or at all. And you certainly shouldn't expect software developers to provide software that is compatible with discontinued platforms. What's next, a version of Pale Moon for Windows 98 that is magically also compatible with XP and Win 7+? Or maybe for a Palm PDA? I still have a working one. Would it be the responsibility of Palm or IBM to provide a working browser for it because the device still works? :lol:

Also, I'm not sure why you bring this up because we are not manufacturers, we do not work for manufacturers, and certainly don't work for clients of manufacturers.
We also don't work "for mainstream". Please try and understand what we are. If you haven't done so yet, go read the Pale Moon website, there's a good amount of information there that should give you a good idea of what we are and what we do.
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Re: browser for old system

Unread post by Moonchild » 2020-08-06, 11:14

mike236 wrote:
2020-08-06, 11:09
Isengrim wrote:
2020-08-06, 10:43
This is a cultural problem and it requires a cultural solution, not a software one.
Is it really so difficult to make a browser that would say FOR ANDROID 1+ ? That would solve all problems, you could buy any phone without caring version of android.
We could SAY it but it would be a lie. You cannot have a single program binary that is ABI-compatible with Android 1 through 10.
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Re: browser for old system

Unread post by moonbat » 2020-08-06, 11:22

mike236 wrote:
2020-08-06, 10:38
In my understanding if i buy a device i should be able to use it until end of it's service life
Service life is unfortunately defined by the manufacturer, not the customer. So even if an older phone is useful for you, they aren't going to bother supporting it indefinitely, for that matter even Windows comes with predefined support schedule, from end of life for regular users to premium long term support for enterprises running legacy applications. With Android you can expect about 3 years of upgrades at the most, if you keep using it past that you're on your own.
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Re: browser for old system

Unread post by Isengrim » 2020-08-07, 03:31

mike236 wrote:
2020-08-06, 11:09
Isengrim wrote:
2020-08-06, 10:43
This is a cultural problem and it requires a cultural solution, not a software one.
Is it really so difficult to make a browser that would say FOR ANDROID 1+ ?
Speaking as someone who has actually written software for Android, yes it is.
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