I used to be persistently logged into this forum.

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markfilipak
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I used to be persistently logged into this forum.

Post by markfilipak » 2015-07-03, 15:12

I used to be persistently logged into this forum. Now I'm not. I have to log in every time even though I set the checkmark to keep me logged in. I think that's a clue.

I can no longer log into SourceForge. I used a webmail interface to submit the symptoms. Thereafter, I started getting strange emails from SourceForge. It turns out, I was automatically subscribed to a bugbase thread listing me as the originator. Trouble is, it is rich-text and I couldn't paste the offending HTML. I had to quit that thread. The folks at SourceForge are too concerned with appearances (i.e., rich-text) and not sufficiently concerned with getting things done. They should be using plaintext. Every user-forum should be using plaintext only, with the addition of a paste-in attachment facility for screenshots and the like. (I urge the folks here to stop using rich-text in this forum -- use plaintext only. KISS!!! Otherwise, you may never know who is having trouble and what the trouble is.)

The problems I'm having appear to be related, not to my HOSTS file, not to this version of Pale Moon, not even to Google spyware javascripts, but to cookies. Cookies appear to have gotten weird.

I have eliminated plug-ins as the cause. Safe mode doesn't fix my session-login problems.

I have eliminated my HOSTS file as the cause. A HOSTS file with only a "localhost" entry doesn't fix my session-login problems.

I have eliminated my profile as the cause. A new profile doesn't fix my session-login problems.

I'm just about at my wit's end.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

Thank You.

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Re: I used to be persistently logged into this forum.

Post by Moonchild » 2015-07-03, 15:45

Are you using any internet security software that performs "web filtering"? Are you using a proxy? Those 2 can cause issues with cookies.
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Re: I used to be persistently logged into this forum.

Post by markfilipak » 2015-07-03, 19:36

Moonchild wrote:Are you using any internet security software that performs "web filtering"? Are you using a proxy? Those 2 can cause issues with cookies.
No proxy. No web filtering.

And as I think more about my plight, I'm not convinced this is a cookie problem. That written, in some forums I can log in after this:
'History' > 'Clear Recent History...'
"Clear All History" dialog:
Time range to clear: Everything
[x] Browsing & Download History
[x] Form & Search History
[x] Cookies
[x] Cache
[_] Active Logins
[x] Offline Website Data
[x] Site Preferences

After that, I can log in, but when I get to a page where I can submit a new thread (or reply to an existing thread), I'm no longer logged in. When I then attempt to log in again from that page, the login fails silently or the login popup spontaneously closes after appearing only momentarily. When I go back to the page (or forward to the page) where I logged in, I'm still logged in, but when I then go back to the forum, I'm not logged in.

These are all sites to which I've belonged and to which I've posted regularly for 10 years or more.

The only thing I can find that they have in common is Google-provided javascript. I've downloaded the Google scripts. In them are comments that they are the same scripts (example; json) available at open-software sites, but when I compare the Google scripts to the open-software, they do not compare. When I look at the scripts attempting to see what's different, they are so heavily minified as to be unreadable (and the minified code is all one line of text -- no '\n' -- so a normal text comparison is not possible). I've thought of unminifying the code so that the two scripts can be compared, but I reasoned that Google modified the open-software code for a reason, and that thought is enough to tickle my paranoid-bone. Combine that with what I've actually observed in HTTP headers regarding Google vectoring links through its servers, and combine that with what I've actually observed in web-page links that shouldn't work, but do, and I really don't need to be further convinced and I don't need to waste any more time attempting to analyze Google scripts.

I'm sure you have noticed how my attention shifts from a problem with PM, to Google-provided scripts, to cookies, and back (and forth (and back (and forth)))... That's how conflicted (and frustrated) I am. I have some tools: HTTP headers, very extensive JS/DOM knowledge/experience, the script debuggers, but I still haven't been able to crack this nut...

That's why I'm asking for help and the experiences of others. Am I alone? Only one other person: Zootal (memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=5513), has expressed any similar experiences.

PS: No matter what the reason or the outcome, during this fiasco I've come to realize how many large websites have made themselves completely vulnerable to Google.

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Re: I used to be persistently logged into this forum.

Post by LimboSlam » 2015-07-03, 23:02

Are you using any mouse gesture suites or tab kits/utilities add-ons? Anything that has "mouse gestures." These don't handle very well on this forum when I'm log-in, they tend to log me out or show an error/resend information message for me to proceed. There after I have to reload the page and I find it has logged me out, so I have to re-log-in.
With Pale Moon by my side, surfing the web is quite enjoyable and takes my headaches away! :)
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Re: I used to be persistently logged into this forum.

Post by markfilipak » 2015-07-04, 03:18

LimboSlam wrote:Are you using any mouse gesture suites or tab kits/utilities add-ons? Anything that has "mouse gestures." These don't handle very well on this forum when I'm log-in, they tend to log me out or show an error/resend information message for me to proceed. There after I have to reload the page and I find it has logged me out, so I have to re-log-in.
Hi LimboSlam,

Nope, though I'm not sure what a tab kit is. I'm running Linux MInt v.17 64-bit, no gestures, and nothing special. I do run about a half-dozen add-ins, but Safe Mode doesn't produce happiness.

Do you have problems with any other forums? The problems I have here are rather trivial compared to the problems I have with some other forums. Those problems are crippling show-stoppers.

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Re: I used to be persistently logged into this forum.

Post by Moonchild » 2015-07-04, 07:15

Please see if disabling SPDY helps. It seems there are scattered reports that it's starting to fail, possibly due to a server-side update (potentially for HTTP/2 experiments). To do this go to about:config, find network.http.spdy.enabled and set it to false.
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Re: I used to be persistently logged into this forum.

Post by markfilipak » 2015-07-04, 21:57

Moonchild wrote:Please see if disabling SPDY helps. It seems there are scattered reports that it's starting to fail, possibly due to a server-side update (potentially for HTTP/2 experiments). To do this go to about:config, find network.http.spdy.enabled and set it to false.
No joy, my fanged friend. I set 'network.http.spdy.enabled', 'network.http.spdy.enabled.v2', and 'network.http.spdy.enabled.v3' all to 'false'. It appears to have made no difference.

This is typical (from CNet):

Code: Select all

<a class="title" data-goto="08da052d-6336-4e53-a1a1-70797dde9d3f" data-url="/news/solar-impulse-breaks-record-for-longest-sun-powered-flight/">
<div class="col-1"><div class="progress">2</div></div>
<div class="col-3"><div class="hed">Solar Impulse breaks record for longest sun-powered flight</div><span class="topic">Sci-Tech</span></div>
</a>
There is really no reason why the link can't be an ordinary, static 'href'.

I've belonged to the Internet Movie Database (IMDb) for about 15 years. Until they reworked the site in April 2009 and I had to re-join, I had credit for about 1000 edits (contributions) to several hundred films. I can't do anything on IMDb now. I can complain and post clues on the IMDb-section of GetSatisfaction (the BBS that handles IMDb discussion, much like SourceForge handles PM distribution), but I can't submit directly to IMDb's site-troubleshooting section because it thinks I'm not logged in, so the odds that I will be able to participate in the future is very, very low. As you can imagine, that's very saddening.

The response I generally get at the forums that no longer work is, "You should use Chrome." So it appears that Google is controlling all three critical points: the site javascripts, the browser, and the search that link them. I imagine this is causing quite a bit of anguish at the IETF, but to 'webmasters', life is good: Just use the Google frameworks and shut up.

I think that there are 2 things that are needed: 1, an 8th level for the OSI model for persistent sessions (to replace cookies, the storage of which on user-systems is really inappropriate), and 2, a second Internet just for computers and other large-screen systems on which only static links are allowed. I lived and worked in Silicon Valley at the time that Netscape introduced javascript, and I remember the argument some made that javascript will distroy the Internet. They just may be proved right.

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Re: I used to be persistently logged into this forum.

Post by Moonchild » 2015-07-05, 08:24

markfilipak wrote:No joy, my fanged friend. I set 'network.http.spdy.enabled', 'network.http.spdy.enabled.v2', and 'network.http.spdy.enabled.v3' all to 'false'. It appears to have made no difference.
It was a long shot, anyway.

And yeah, it falls into the current-day approach and herd mentality that everyone will just have to use the same single thing the same single way.
Just the other day I was talking with a friend about this, and we came to the conclusion that it's probably a counter point to the overly individualistic approach we've had for a while in society, and people are starting to see the (honestly not surprising) broad patterns of similarities in human desires and behavior. The way this data is used, however, is to try and make everything fit in those general trends, and that is wrong, IMNSHO. Not even counting the fact that data collected is probably from a specific subsection of the population, because others would likely take steps to prevent it, so trends may look stronger or different than they in actual fact are.

Combine this with economic "optimization" that all organizations seem to do to squeeze every last minute of work out of every day to save another 0.01% on expenses, and you end up with website maintenance being swept under the rug, and webmasters not wanting to do more than the absolute minimum effort, which usually means spending 0 time on supporting a wider range of browsers and often using 5-minute pre-made library solutions that aren't always browser-agnostic. Management says only the largest slice of internet users matters, when that is brought up, usually.
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Re: I used to be persistently logged into this forum.

Post by markfilipak » 2015-07-05, 20:45

Moonchild wrote:... you end up with website maintenance being swept under the rug, and webmasters not wanting to do more than the absolute minimum effort, which usually means spending 0 time on supporting a wider range of browsers and often using 5-minute pre-made library solutions that aren't always browser-agnostic. Management says only the largest slice of internet users matters, when that is brought up, usually.
At last: someone who is willing and able to converse on this particular subject.

My toothy friend, This may be an opportunity in disguise. If I take the time to identify the Google spyware-scripits, by name, and I rewrite the scripts to remove their fangs (no slight to you intended) could you add them to Pale Moon, and thereby make Pale Moon a safe (by-design) browser?

squarefractal

Re: I used to be persistently logged into this forum.

Post by squarefractal » 2015-07-06, 10:45

markfilipak wrote:If I take the time to identify the Google spyware-scripits, by name, and I rewrite the scripts to remove their fangs (no slight to you intended) could you add them to Pale Moon, and thereby make Pale Moon a safe (by-design) browser?
You can direct your efforts towards the Noscript extension, which does exactly this: replace essential scripts (that, if blocked, break functionality) that perform analytics/tracking with its own safe version.

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Re: I used to be persistently logged into this forum.

Post by markfilipak » 2015-07-19, 03:56

I've tried Noscript.
I've tried a plain vanilla HOSTS file.
I've tried so-called Safe Mode.

I now can't log into EBay, Amazon, IMDb, and CNet (and perhaps others I haven't yet discovered).

As a troubleshooting test, can I install Firefox to coexist with PaleMoon?

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Re: I used to be persistently logged into this forum.

Post by LimboSlam » 2015-07-19, 04:02

Yes Firefox will coexist with Pale Moon.
With Pale Moon by my side, surfing the web is quite enjoyable and takes my headaches away! :)
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Re: I used to be persistently logged into this forum.

Post by Night Wing » 2015-07-19, 11:43

markfilipak wrote:I'm running Linux MInt v.17 64-bit, no gestures, and nothing special. I do run about a half-dozen add-ins, but Safe Mode doesn't produce happiness.

Do you have problems with any other forums? The problems I have here are rather trivial compared to the problems I have with some other forums. Those problems are crippling show-stoppers.
I've been following this topic since you use Mint and I use Mint.

I've got two desktop tower computers with two hard drives in each tower computer for a dual boot configuration with Windows 7 and linux Mint. On one of my hard drives in my older tower computer, it runs 64 bit linux Mint 17 (Qiana) with the Xfce DE. On my newer desktop tower computer, one of the hard drives runs 64 bit linux Mint 17.1 (Rebecca) with the same Xfce DE.

On both of the 64 bit linux Mint hard drives, my default browser is 64 bit linux Pale Moon (25.5.0). Like you, I've got the Pale Moon forums site to keep me always logged in and on both hard drives with Mint 17, 17.1 and Pale Moon, it does keep me logged in.

With linux Pale Moon, I use 3 add-ons/extensions and they are:

NoSquint 2.1.9
Adblock Latitude 3.0.2
User Agent Overrider 0.2.4

On my Windows Manager, my theme is "Default". On my Appearance, my Style is "xfce-orange".

Since I'm not experiencing any problems being always logged in, there is something in your setup which is causing you a problem between Mint and Pale Moon and I do think the problem is with Pale Moon.
Linux Mint 20 (Ulyana) Xfce 64 Bit with 64 Bit linux Pale Moon

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Re: I used to be persistently logged into this forum.

Post by markfilipak » 2015-07-21, 07:13

I used Synaptic to install a completely vanilla copy of Firefox, v.39.0 with no plug-ins, and I restored the original /etc/hosts file via Double Commander running as root.

Running Firefox, I cannot log into Amazon, CNet, or IMDb. It looks like I log in, but then I can't do anything that requires being logged in, and in the main part of each site, the banners invite me to log in, so the main parts of the sites don't think I'm logged in.

Could this be some sort of permissions problem in the cookie area? I'm running Firefox (and Pale Moon) in Linux. I have no idea where cookies are stored.

This is the Pale Moon forum, so I won't persue this further here, and I will inquire at the Linux Mint forum and maybe at the Linux part of the VirtualBox forum, but I thought maybe, just maybe, someone here has a brainstorm.

Ciao.

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Re: I used to be persistently logged into this forum.

Post by Moonchild » 2015-07-21, 11:12

Cookies are stored in the browser profile -- Firefox and Pale Moon will store their own cookies in their own "cookie jar". If a clean install of FF causes the same issue, it's definitely something system-wide.
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Re: I used to be persistently logged into this forum.

Post by squarefractal » 2015-07-21, 16:25

Maybe the user is just running a system cleaner at regular intervals of time, causing cookies to be cleaned automatically?

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Re: I used to be persistently logged into this forum.

Post by markfilipak » 2015-07-22, 02:16

squarefractal wrote:Maybe the user is just running a system cleaner at regular intervals of time, causing cookies to be cleaned automatically?
No, I'm not.

Windows 7 Host OS (instead of LInux Mint 17.1 Guest OS).
Generic HOSTS file (instead of a fancy "blocker" HOSTS file).

Still I can't log into my account in IMDb.

SUMMARY:

Pale Moon in so-called "Safe Mode" running in Linux Mint 17.1 VM with generic HOSTS file = fail.
Vanilla Firefox running in Linux Mint 17.1 VM with generic HOSTS file = fail.
Vanilla Pale Moon running in Windows 7 (host OS) with generic HOSTS file = fail.

I haven't tried sprinkling holy water on my computer yet, but I'm considering it.

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Re: I used to be persistently logged into this forum.

Post by markfilipak » 2015-07-22, 04:27

I've just discovered that I can't log in at the AVS Forum (avsforum.com), in which I'm a long time member. It thanks me for logging in, but then I'm not really logged in, just like the rest of the sites I can't log into.

My list is now:
AVS Forum
EBay
CNet
Amazon
IMDb

All symptoms at all these sites are the same. I'm not logged in except that when I try to re-register, it says I'm already logged in. But when I try to do anything that requires being logged in, I'm prompted to log in. Thereafter, even though I log in, I'm not logged in and can't do anything.

These are all sites to which I've belonged for years.

squarefractal

Re: I used to be persistently logged into this forum.

Post by squarefractal » 2015-07-22, 09:45

Are you using something at the router level that modifies content or such?

Have you tried booting from a live system on another computer connected onto this connection?

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