Another problem with Citibank site

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Re: Another problem with Citibank site

Post by moonbat » 2019-12-31, 02:54

Pallid Planetoid wrote:
2019-12-31, 02:28
if the page works in a little known XUL browser like Basilisk then one could surmise there might be a way to make the same page work an another better known XUL browser like Pale Moon. :think: (that is, from the perspective of a neophyte.... :eh: ;))
That doesn't help because it's got nothing to do with XUL. Basilisk is forked from a later version of Firefox(52) and includes components left out of Pale Moon - notably WebRTC and DRM. So more likely that the website supports Firefox 52 than anything to do with either UXP browser.
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Re: Another problem with Citibank site

Post by Pallid Planetoid » 2019-12-31, 03:51

moonbat wrote:
2019-12-31, 02:54
.... it's got nothing to do with XUL. Basilisk is forked from a later version of Firefox(52) and includes components left out of Pale Moon - notably WebRTC and DRM...
Many thanks for the feedback and please bear with me concerning my followup questions. ;)

In regards to WebRTC -- of the 8 other browsers I've used to test this site of which the Citibank login works in all of them; I have "WebRTC" disabled (blocked) in 5 of those browsers. Since the Citibank login works in all 8 of the other browsers including the 5 of which "WebRTC" in not implemented -- would this rule out the "WebRTC" difference between the browsers and therefore rule out the "WebRTC" functionality as a contributing factor as to whether the login page works or not?

As to DRM -- considering this technology applies to online video and audio services, I would assume this wouldn't apply to the websites login issue at hand -- am I correct to assume this?

Thanks in advance for any help on this. :D

Btw, the only reason I referenced the "XUL" aspect of the two browsers is to contemplate the presumed greater similarities between the browsers in contrast to the extent there are differences... :think:
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Re: Another problem with Citibank site

Post by moonbat » 2019-12-31, 05:16

Pallid Planetoid wrote:
2019-12-31, 03:51
Many thanks for the feedback and please bear with me concerning my followup questions. ;)

Ah I should've clarified - those 2 are the biggest differences between Basilisk and PM, but not the factor that makes Citibank decide to reject the latter. There was another thread about a site not working where they were explicitly testing for WebRTC support because the site needed it to function - that isn't the case for Citibank (ditto for DRM).

The Javascript error referenced may have to do with something not implemented in Pale Moon that it tries to run, but I have no idea. The biggest problem these days is that all standards are fluid instead of being strictly versioned, so it is next to impossible to say that a browser supports x version of HTML or Javascript (which would make it easier to define what features will and won't work, as it used to be the case in the pre Chrome era). Many functions are not yet ratified and are 'draft', but Chrome implements them anyway, and because Pale Moon would rather stick to a defined standard, it comes across as 'broken'.
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Re: Another problem with Citibank site

Post by Pallid Planetoid » 2019-12-31, 05:32

moonbat wrote:
2019-12-31, 05:16
... Many functions are not yet ratified and are 'draft', but Chrome implements them anyway, and because Pale Moon would rather stick to a defined standard, it comes across as 'broken'.
Thanks for the reply :thumbup: .... I would say this likely applies to not only other "main-stream" Blink Engine based browsers as well but other types of browsers too i.e. FF comes to mind among others....

Your points are well taken in regards to other browsers not strictly adhering to defined standards (which of course certainly speaks well of Pale Moon :thumbup:)....

That said, in consideration that Basilisk is not impacted by whatever the Citibank login page problem is that does apparently impact Pale Moon raises the glaring question; are we to then conclude that Basilisk is more "liberal", shall we say, than Pale Moon in regards to following "a defined standard"? :think: ;)
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Re: Another problem with Citibank site

Post by moonbat » 2019-12-31, 06:23

Pallid Planetoid wrote:
2019-12-31, 05:32
That said, in consideration that Basilisk is not impacted by whatever the Citibank login page problem is that does apparently impact Pale Moon raises the glaring question; are we to then conclude that Basilisk is more "liberal", shall we say, than Pale Moon in regards to following "a defined standard"? :think: ;)
I'd say more liberal in following the fluid standards of these days. As I understand it was made to demonstrate the underlying Unified XUL Platform, and to provide recent Firefox converts a slightly more familiar experience.
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Re: Another problem with Citibank site

Post by yurikhan » 2019-12-31, 07:45

Pallid Planetoid wrote:
2019-12-31, 02:13
For what it's worth this is what I get for errors in the Web Console:

Code: Select all

Timestamp: 12/30/2019 6:06:58 PM
Error: ReferenceError: mboxCreate is not defined
Source File: https://online.citi.com/US/JPS/portal/Index.do?Promo_ID=SPBL
Line: 948
The first two errors are the result of rendering the log-in page and the third (last) error the result of attempting to login (which produces the error in question: "We're sorry. Citi.com is temporarily unavailable" etc etc....)
Lots of speculation here about how browsers implement more than is required of them by the standards; but here’s how I’d start debugging this:
  • I see an undefined reference in the Web Console, so I google for mboxCreate.
  • Turns out it’s a function in an external Javascript library called Adobe Target, typically named at.js; and a part of that library was formerly known as mbox.js.
So your next steps:
  • See if your ad blocker (you are using an ad blocker, right?) or script blocker blocks any scripts, especially those named at.js or mbox.js and/or coming from adobe.
  • See if disabling that blocker fixes the issue.
  • If it does, find out how to add an exception rule for that particular script.

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Re: Another problem with Citibank site

Post by Pallid Planetoid » 2019-12-31, 15:34

^ Thanks for the insightful feedback yurikhan,

The problem however persists using the browser in Safe-Mode (no add-ons) and using a fresh browser Profile as well as using a fresh portable install of Pale Moon (including a previous release of the current one) -- so the problem appears to be specific to browser/website compatibility since the issue is apparently not impacting the web-page as a result of any extraneous browser interference. (I've ruled out ISP connection issues since the same web-site problem is presumably ubiquitous across disparate ISP's due to the fact that multiple users are experiencing the same issue.)
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Re: Another problem with Citibank site

Post by Moonchild » 2019-12-31, 17:56

It is very possible Citi uses a specific set of checks to determine what is a "valid browser" that includes checks for components/features that are disabled in Pale Moon at build time (like WebRTC and support for accessibility hardware). Since Pale Moon does not and will not include those features, those checks can't be satisfied and the website refuses the browser as a result.
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Re: Another problem with Citibank site

Post by rereser » 2020-01-02, 08:23

this older xp version of new moon by roytam1 still works with citi.com
new profile , no add-ons , no about:config mods.
http://o.rths.ml/palemoon/palemoon-28.2 ... c-xpmod.7z
27 oct 2018 - working
http://o.rths.ml/palemoon/palemoon-28.2 ... 9-xpmod.7z
10 nov 2018 - broken
changelog.
http://rtfreesoft.blogspot.com/2018/11/ ... 81110.html
diff.
https://o.rths.ml/basilisk/UXP-xp-gitdiff-20181110.7z

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Re: Another problem with Citibank site

Post by Moonchild » 2020-01-02, 10:00

As I stated, it probably checks for specific "features" that aren't included in Pale Moon. If that's the changelog, who knows they may be checking for gamepad support?
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Re: Another problem with Citibank site

Post by moonbat » 2020-01-02, 12:53

Moonchild wrote:
2020-01-02, 10:00
As I stated, it probably checks for specific "features" that aren't included in Pale Moon. If that's the changelog, who knows they may be checking for gamepad support?
Off-topic:
And maybe use the Konami code as an alternate way to login ;)
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Re: Another problem with Citibank site

Post by BookMark » 2020-01-06, 00:07

Does anyone question the security of web sites that run peculiar browser tests, "tests" with little bouncing balls displayed, rely on captchas, etc.? To me it appears they are administered by people with little security knowledge or ability, who probably are missing dozens of real risks while concentrating on this nonsense. Whoever at CitiBank designed this test, probably is providing some impressive stats to management about all the attacks by fake browsers the test has blocked - and they are all happy because CitiBank is secure...

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Re: Another problem with Citibank site

Post by Pallid Planetoid » 2020-01-06, 00:11

^ Can you post the URL to this site you're describing?

I'm not familiar with anything like you have described....

Thanks.
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Re: Another problem with Citibank site

Post by cosmo666 » 2020-01-10, 03:20

Moonchild wrote:
2019-12-29, 20:49
Citibank has been an on-going problematic site for us and they have no intention of being browser-agnostic or even being in any way reasonable to their clients when it comes to on-line banking.
Contacting them has proven less than useful -- if you are using them and want to use their on-line banking, please use one of their very short list of "approved" browsers. There really isn't much else to do about it as they will continue to target only those browsers and will continue to explicitly block other web clients when they can.
I've had nothing but trouble accessing my US Bank account with Pale Moon, but after comparing interactions using Firefox & Chrome (which have been only marginally better), I've concluded there seems to be a "do it our way, or go away" attitude on the part of these big-bank IT departments, most of which don't even deign to reply when post a problem-report.

One of the issues seems to be that some big banks use third-party services to provide (and this is just my guess), a secondary layer of security profiling during login, and those services may be making invalid assumptions about the browser environment. In most cases, this results in an indefinite 'hang', waiting for the third-party service to issue a confirm/deny response. That puts the entire login process in some sort of 'taint mode', so even if I go to a different machine and use a different browser, I still end up having to answer 'security questions' etc.

Sorry to be so imprecise in describing this FBO those seeing the bank-related problems. I will say: after upgrading to PM 28.8, I've been having better luck, but too early to be able to pronounce it 'fixed'. (And by 'it', I'm referring to the financial institutions problems.)

In general, since upgrading all half-dozen of my PM installs to 28.8, it seems to be performing at 'best-ever' levels, including many of the extensions. The stewardship of this project by the PM team, and third-party providers, is really starting to pay off in the Linux space.

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Re: Another problem with Citibank site

Post by moonbat » 2020-01-10, 03:51

cosmo666 wrote:
2020-01-10, 03:20
I've had nothing but trouble accessing my US Bank account with Pale Moon, but after comparing interactions using Firefox & Chrome (which have been only marginally better), I've concluded there seems to be a "do it our way, or go away" attitude on the part of these big-bank IT departments, most of which don't even deign to reply when post a problem-report.
For all companies whose core business isn't IT, anything to do with IT is a cost center, and therefore to be given the barest minimum in terms of budget and attention. Banks and government sites were some of the longest holdouts for sticking to Internet Explorer, now expect the same thing to happen since Chrome became the new IE.
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Re: Another problem with Citibank site

Post by Pallid Planetoid » 2020-01-10, 07:30

cosmo666 wrote:
2020-01-10, 03:20
I've had nothing but trouble accessing my US Bank account with Pale Moon....
Did you mean to say "US Bank"?

I ask because the topic is on Citibank and I can say as far as US Bank is concerned; any problems that Pale Moon has had with this specific bank (US Bank) for me has been very little to none. I haven't even had the need for a Useragent Override setting for this bank.

If this is the login page for the US Bank you are having issues with: https://onlinebanking.usbank.com/Auth/Login --- then I would ask that you post what the specific problems are that you are having with this bank and I'll follow-up with trying to determine what may be causing your issues (since I have had virtually no issues using Pale Moon with this bank over the years).

On the other hand, if it is Citibank that you are actually speaking of -- my concern is that it appears that Citibank has adopted the apparently unrectifiable approach of coding their login page in a manner that effectively filters out browsers that the bank does not consider acceptable. And with that in mind, my concern depends more recently on the basis that eventually other banks may possibly adopt this same approach which if also not rectifiable could potentially damage the Pale Moon brand to the extent of negatively impacting market share depending upon how pervasive this pattern might ultimately become (a concern I've spoken of previously because of how much I want Pale Moon to succeed that has unfortunately engendered enmity).
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Re: Another problem with Citibank site

Post by BenFenner » 2020-01-12, 11:12

Off-topic:
Pallid Planetoid wrote:
2019-12-30, 02:11
I'm not about to quit Citibank considering I've had an account with them since 1957 (over 60 years) and as such have a unique relationship including a special account that no one else can have that is both free and provides me with interest on my balance at the same time.
If you don't mind depositing checks via a smartphone app, there are likely other banks that will far outperform your grandfathered Citibank accounts on those fronts.

Graham Stephan - I FOUND THE 5 BEST BANK ACCOUNTS!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2yYiTKRizE

Graham Stephan - The 5 MOST PROFITABLE Savings Accounts of 2019
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvgDorJU21E

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Re: Another problem with Citibank site

Post by Pallid Planetoid » 2020-01-12, 11:43

^ @BenFenner -- Thanks for the tip and providing the links :thumbup: --
Off-topic:
however I don't have a smartphone (use the old flip-phone the very few times I ever use a cell which amounts to less than 10 minutes a month. Our cells are entirely for emergency backup as it were.). And I never use apps at all (we are bombarded by apps for this and apps for that and every time another of the myriad of apps that are pushed on us is used it's just another security risk as I see it). Understanding that I may be losing out on some benefits of using apps I'm willing to take the loss to the extend this is the case. Oh and btw, I never use debit cards either.... ;) (another thing that is frequently pushed on customers....)

Addendum: after watching 1st link -- I've got a Capital One account but have for a long time now limited my use of it because Capital One credit card management has been over the years the ONLY CC management service that has reported my wife and I to a credit bureau for only being 30 days late (missing one month) -- which then stays with you for amazingly 7 years significantly lowering the credit score during that long time frame. As to savings -- which the video mentioned (specifically the #1 on list); I've never been able to save any money for many years due to large debt that consists of interest rates that a savings could never come close to covering. ;) But many thanks for taking the time. :thumbup: Btw, I might take a look at #2 Redneck Bank however (of the banks mentioned I've never heard of it, which sounds interesting ;)) Oh and one last comment - beware of Synchrony bank; they manage a lot of CC accounts and if you don't use a CC for 2 years that they manage they will close that account without notice (I've lost a CC I had for over 60 years due to their inconsiderate policy on this (totally inconsiderate because they should at least minimally notify the customer before hand so in my case an account history over many decades permanently lost).
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Re: Another problem with Citibank site

Post by cosmo666 » 2020-05-23, 17:52

Pallid Planetoid wrote:
2020-01-10, 07:30
cosmo666 wrote:
2020-01-10, 03:20
I've had nothing but trouble accessing my US Bank account with Pale Moon....
Did you mean to say "US Bank"?

I ask because the topic is on Citibank and I can say as far as US Bank is concerned; any problems that Pale Moon has had with this specific bank (US Bank) for me has been very little to none. I haven't even had the need for a Useragent Override setting for this bank.

If this is the login page for the US Bank you are having issues with: https://onlinebanking.usbank.com/Auth/Login --- then I would ask that you post what the specific problems are that you are having with this bank and I'll follow-up with trying to determine what may be causing your issues (since I have had virtually no issues using Pale Moon with this bank over the years).

On the other hand, if it is Citibank that you are actually speaking of -- my concern is that it appears that Citibank has adopted the apparently unrectifiable approach of coding their login page in a manner that effectively filters out browsers that the bank does not consider acceptable. And with that in mind, my concern depends more recently on the basis that eventually other banks may possibly adopt this same approach which if also not rectifiable could potentially damage the Pale Moon brand to the extent of negatively impacting market share depending upon how pervasive this pattern might ultimately become (a concern I've spoken of previously because of how much I want Pale Moon to succeed that has unfortunately engendered enmity).
My UI problem was with US Bank, not Citibank. The failure mode(s) I have encountered accessing US Bank have been several, and some appear to be intermittent. However, the solution I found has worked consistently (i.e. hitting [enter] in the password input field), so definitely not worth the time trying to diagnose the others. I am concerned about the trend amongst 'big-corporate' websites to disregard or deliberately exclude 'browsers they don't like'. However the Pmoo developers seem to be on top of this problem, and, worst case, I can install Chrome or Generic Firefox to address those problems.

Apropos "off-topic", my comment was intended to inform a larger audience than just Citibank. I've encountered the same UI problem with a number of large corporate bank/financial websites, where, because they are 'big', involved in critical financial transactions, and their customers have no choice but to 'do it [their] way, or hit the highway...' they pay little or no attention to multi-browser compatibility issues. It is precisely because I do not wish to see any new code-base monopolies establishing themselves (and thereby potentially hobbling a project like Palemoon), that I posted my comment on this thread.

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